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Hard-Liners Attack Church in Yogya

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  • #16
    I really do hope God, Heaven and the Virgins do exist. Then we will all know who we are and regret the choice that we have made. I choose only to believe in good people and good in people. If it turns out that those who hurt, kill and terrorize other people in the name of religion are the ones that go to heaven, I will not regret the choice that I have made.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Michelle O'Brien View Post
      Boobs?

      LOL.

      Interesting term! In Australia that is a woman's breasts...

      Sorry ... had to laugh.
      In America as well, but we also use it to express that someone is a [redacted]. Example: "What a total boob."
      Last edited by DanInAceh; 04-06-14, 09:16.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
        Murder, arson and threats are wrong, yes. However, I will submit that there is sometimes a gray area or matter of perspective when it comes to violence or threats of violence. Violent acts directed at a hostile regime, as an example, may be effective and necessary.
        So, Christianity is by definition a "hostile regime"? It's okay to be violent against it?

        Personally, I would NEVER condone violence or threats of violence against anyone based on their religion - whether they are weirdo Christians, weirdo Muslims, weirdo Wiccans, or whatever.

        If you agree, say so. If you disagree that violence against people based simply on the religious beliefs they hold is wrong - well, that kind of feeds into the "hardliner" epithet, doesn't it?
        Last edited by Puspawarna; 03-06-14, 20:06.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Puspawarna View Post
          So, Christianity is by definition a "hostile regime"? It's okay to be violent against it?

          Personally, I would NEVER condone violence or threats of violence against anyone based on their religion - whether they are weirdo Christians, weirdo Muslims, weirdo Wiccans, or whatever.

          If you agree, say so. If you disagree that violence against people based simply on the religious beliefs they hold is wrong - well, that kind of feeds into the "hardliner" epithet, doesn't it?
          Whoa. I know that's an interrogative, but it sure did feel like an accusative.

          Christianity is not in control and not a regime in this case. I'm generally speaking of political entities. Autocrats and the like. There have been times in history where violent opposition to Christians has been warranted. Oliver Cromwell is a terrific example. Definitely a man who needed to be dealt with in a violent manner.

          It's certainly not fashionable to say that violence has its uses or necessity. I get that. It's very easy and comfortable to say, 'I totally reject violence.' I can even respect people who say such things, and they may truly believe it. Thing is, I'm going to tell you that there's a time and a place to fight. Knowing when and where is a bit of a challenge, but I believe quite firmly that there are times of dire necessity that require conflict.

          I don't really know how to spell it all out any more plainly. It's interesting to see that there are those among you who think I am an extremist after all this time. I mean, really? A bisexual Muslim advocating the strategies laid out by Julian the Apostate as a means for dealing with Christian missionaries and their gullible native converts? The Muslim organizations we're speaking of would attack ME every bit as much as those Christians. :P

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          • #20
            Interesting post. You deftly avoided stating that violence against people based on their religious beliefs is wrong and instead responded with side-stepping equivocation - "It's certainly not fashionable to say that violence has its uses or necessity."

            I don't need paragraphs of apologia - just a yes or no: do you think it is okay to threaten or hurt people based on their religious beliefs?

            I would have thought you'd simply say "hell NO." That was the impression I had when you first started posting here.

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            • #21
              that also my impression too puspa...

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              • #22
                My mother can't recognize "her Indonesia" anymore. It makes her sad. When she moved from Indonesia to Europe in the late 1960's she left a far more open minded and tolerant country behind than it is today. As a muslim girl it was not uncommon to have your parents send you to a catholic school if they thought that is where she would get a better education. She has many beautiful memories of those days.

                Nowadays we have to read about muslims forbidding other muslims to wish their fellow christian friends Merry Christmas! What the ____ is wrong with people? Don't we have other problems worth addressing ?

                I have been in Indonesia for 3 years now, got married with my lovely Javanese wife and have no plans to return to Germany as of now. Every now and then after hearing my story of how I ended up in Indonesia quite a few ask me if I intend to give up my German citizenship to eventually become Indonesian.

                Incidents like these are the major reason why I better not. If religious intolerance keeps growing and governments keep tolerating it this will also not be "our Indonesia" anymore.
                Last edited by indobased; 03-06-14, 21:52.

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                • #23
                  So, batshit weirdos attack batshit weirdos and Dan says there could very well be Islam involved. True that.
                  [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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                  • #24
                    Some Religious freaks somehow think that hatred and war are the way to devote to their god. I'm not finger pointing to any religions since it has happened from a long long time ago. What if there were no religions at all? Would the world be in more peace? Would it be worse? Would it reduce wars since there would be one less cause to war.
                    So when a future miss universe is asked how to actualize peace in the world, she would simply answer : ban the religions!
                    Lost in Jakarta's trafic jam

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Puspawarna View Post
                      So, Christianity is by definition a "hostile regime"? It's okay to be violent against it?

                      Personally, I would NEVER condone violence or threats of violence against anyone based on their religion - whether they are weirdo Christians, weirdo Muslims, weirdo Wiccans, or whatever.

                      If you agree, say so. If you disagree that violence against people based simply on the religious beliefs they hold is wrong - well, that kind of feeds into the "hardliner" epithet, doesn't it?
                      Even though Dan did not give a yes or no answer, and combined with many of his other posts, I have a clear feeling of his thinking.

                      From the beginning of Dan's participation here, I have simply substituted many words. When he has used Muslim or Allah or Acheh, I substitute Christian, God or American. So to me, there is no question on whether he is moderate or hardline. Any Christian or American who used the same words would have been run off this forum a long time ago.

                      And to other posters who enjoy degrading and calling names of people they consider Pentacostals or Evangelists, Why?? How did any of these people ever hurt you that you can't accept the live and let live philosophy??

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Kimdub View Post
                        And to other posters who enjoy degrading and calling names of people they consider Pentacostals or Evangelists, Why?? How did any of these people ever hurt you that you can't accept the live and let live philosophy??
                        And remember that we all have to tolerate a lot of crap going through airport security these days and it's not because of Pentecostals or Evangelists.
                        "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                        George Bernard Shaw

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                          In America as well, but we also use it to express that someone is a moron. Example: "What a total boob."
                          Yep...but (was totally inappropriate) - made me have a giggle...

                          Forgive me, carry on...
                          Things happen for a reason...

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by indobased View Post
                            My mother can't recognize "her Indonesia" anymore. It makes her sad. When she moved from Indonesia to Europe in the late 1960's she left a far more open minded and tolerant country behind than it is today. As a muslim girl it was not uncommon to have your parents send you to a catholic school if they thought that is where she would get a better education. She has many beautiful memories of those days.

                            Nowadays we have to read about muslims forbidding other muslims to wish their fellow christian friends Merry Christmas! What the ____ is wrong with people? Don't we have other problems worth addressing ?

                            I have been in Indonesia for 3 years now, got married with my lovely Javanese wife and have no plans to return to Germany as of now. Every now and then after hearing my story of how I ended up in Indonesia quite a few ask me if I intend to give up my German citizenship to eventually become Indonesian.

                            Incidents like these are the major reason why I better not. If religious intolerance keeps growing and governments keep tolerating it this will also not be "our Indonesia" anymore.
                            That is really sad to hear indobased...and very interesting.

                            I have often thought that generally in this world we have all become far less tolerant of others...take road rage, and other similar behaviours - queue rage, shopping trolley rage... We all generally seem just so "me" focussed today...

                            Technology has a part to play (says me typing on a computer in a chat room!) - does it desensitise us to others (in the real non-virtual world) and their emotions and behaviours...we seem to concentrate on ourselves and can't truly interact with people?

                            I think also the world seems a far more volatile place today - with talk of carbon crises and global warming, financial crises, resources running dry etc etc...people understandably seem stressed about their futures.

                            Families are fractured - especially in Western cultures - that support is perhaps missing?

                            I just wonder if religion just gives people a visible avenue to vent this stress through...that is really just people acting out their personal stresses, but we erroneously label as a religion-based action...I don't know...

                            I accept that some of it is proselytising - and that is a different issue...but this is an interesting area for discussion.

                            (Or is it just late and I should go to bed!)
                            Things happen for a reason...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                              I thought I made it pretty clear that they (the Muslims) were shooting themselves in the foot. Let me restate that for the record. Arson attacks, threats of violence, murder and so on are all terribly ineffective ways of preventing Christianity from taking root in an area. In fact, it probably encourages them. It validates their world view that they are the righteous and are being "tested" in their faith through various trials and tribulations. They get off on this kind of thing, it's the martyrdom that they crave above all else. This is true of all Abrahamic faiths.

                              The antidote for Christianity, the most effective means of countering it, is to "hit them where it hurts." By that I mean developing stronger institutions than the ones they'll attempt to bring in. Christians have long preyed upon the destitute, so organizing religious charity from all other faiths is an effective means of countering their efforts. So too is establishing the validity of all other religions to the exception of Christianity. The Sultan would be wise to build more temples of other faiths and to encourage their development. None of the other faiths are an actual threat to Islam, so it's a token gesture that provides the cover of tolerance while simultaneously undermining Christianity.

                              Also, I take exception to your characterization that I am a "hard-liner." Take it back.
                              Totally agree Dan!

                              In people's mind there is already a negative image of Islam as being violent and intolerant which is quite the opposite of a "Religion of Peace". These stories only go to prove this image is correct in these people's mind.

                              Shame they don't adhere to "You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Puspawarna View Post
                                Interesting post. You deftly avoided stating that violence against people based on their religious beliefs is wrong and instead responded with side-stepping equivocation - "It's certainly not fashionable to say that violence has its uses or necessity."

                                I don't need paragraphs of apologia - just a yes or no: do you think it is okay to threaten or hurt people based on their religious beliefs?

                                I would have thought you'd simply say "hell NO." That was the impression I had when you first started posting here.
                                I don't see it in binary. I can say, "no," but that wouldn't be truthful. I'd argue for the killing of a figure like Cromwell or bin Laden. I can amend it like this and we can agree. "I don't think it's OK to threaten or hurt civilians based on their religious beliefs." Active combatants and autocrats? No, I can't say the same.

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