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FGM in Indonesia

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  • #16
    I don't see the reverence of comparing traffic accidents to barbarism. FGM is not an accident. It is the mutilation of a child. There is no thin line of voluntary and involuntary.
    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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    • #17
      [SIZE=3][FONT=arial]Stories such as this are utterly depressing. Not long ago I learned that some archaeologists are suggesting that religion begat civilization, but this sort of thing suggests that religion is a gateway to life as Hobbes described: solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. [/FONT][FONT=arial][/FONT][/SIZE]

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      • #18
        Fastpitch, please slow down and read the part in parentheses at the end of my post.

        Also, there are many types of involuntary procedures done on kids, which have the backing of "modern society". Compulsory schooling is one, vaccination is another and potentially more life threatening than removing a prepuce for infant boy or girl.

        So, basically, the issue is that you don't agree with any kind of genital "modification". The involuntary aspect only strengthens the moral resolve, it does not define the moral issue because I'm sure you approve of other involuntary actions, as most of us do.
        Last edited by martindo; 22-03-14, 13:31.

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        • #19
          You mean you are against schooling for kids? I just don't know what to say about that.
          As for vaccinations, yes. I am very much for them and that is based on my scientific understandings. I understand some are against and that is their choice even though there really isn't much to back them up on it. A one in 1,000,000 chance of something going wrong is far better then a 1 in 1,000 or slimmer chance of contracting a disease that was preventable and could wipe out a large portion of the world's children. Ever been around an epidemic?

          Education----Benefit
          Vaccinations---Benefit
          FGM-----No Benefit what so ever

          Having a labia rearranged or whatever they want is just a choice and not only an American thing. I haven't heard of anyone doing it to their daughters before they reach an age of making their own decisions except for possible medical reasons.
          [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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          • #20
            Originally posted by martindo View Post
            ... Also, there are many types of involuntary procedures done on kids, which have the backing of "modern society". Compulsory schooling is one, vaccination is another and potentially more life threatening than removing a prepuce for infant boy or girl.

            So, basically, the issue is that you don't agree with any kind of genital "modification". The involuntary aspect only strengthens the moral resolve, it does not define the moral issue because I'm sure you approve of other involuntary actions, as most of us do.
            Yes, very true. Children are not considered, by most measures, competent to make weighty decisions concerning their own well being. Until they reach a certain age, most decisions are made on their behalf by responsible, mature adults, collectively as in the case of compelling schooling for a minimum number of years or individually, as in the case of parents compelling their offspring to get up in the morning in time to timely arrive at said school.

            Acting individually or collectively, adults are not only charged with making decisions on behalf of children, they are are also charged with the responsibility to keep children safe from harm. FGM is such a harm that most modern societies prohibit by law. Calling the practice a genital modification is essentially an apology for barbarism inflicted upon innocents that has been outlawed because of the resulting great physical and psychological harm which ensues.

            An argument equating FGM with vaccinating children against diseases is shallow in the extreme. The issue is not compulsion, (that both are involuntary is your pointless point) but rather the welfare of infants and children under our care. Not only is your argument shallow, its disgusting.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
              FGM-----No Benefit what so ever
              Not so sure about that. I can only speak from anecdotal experience, but my wife experiences orgasm pretty much every time we have sex. While I would like to attribute this to my own skills, a more likely reason is that her clitoris is somewhat more exposed and easier to satisfy than a woman who is uncut. Having had sex with other women as comparison, I would venture that I have an easier time bringing her to orgasm than any other female partner I've had. It could just be her, I could just be "well seasoned," but I suspect it's the circumcision. Indeed, Islamic sources suggest this to be the case, and I do see some potential for it to be true. I'm sure that other men on this forum have had sex with cut women, and many of them may be unaware their partners are cut. I suspect that millions of women in Indonesia are cut. If anyone else has experience in this matter I'm all ears and somewhat curious.

              Now, that doesn't mean that children should have their prepuce excised (male or female) because it might offer a sexual benefit down the road. The proper course of action is to allow teenagers or adults to decide for themselves if they want to fulfill a religious obligation and cut the prepuce.

              Calling it female genital mutilation is unhelpful, though. In Indonesia it's really nothing of the sort. I can see merit to claiming it happens on occasion in Africa, where sometimes truly brutal cutting occurs. But here? It's the same as a circumcision for a boy. Let's ban both for children and allow adults to seek the procedure for themselves. Seems like a win/win solution to me.

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              • #22
                Also, to interject a male perspective on cutting, I am cut. My parents did it, they assumed it would be beneficial in some way for me. I disagree, and I wish I had not been cut. Men who are uncut are much more sensitive than cut men, though both can achieve orgasm. I have always wanted to know what that felt like, and I have always wondered what I am missing out on.

                I think it is very unfair that we are denying young children a more fulfilling sex life as men on the basis of religion, culture or hyped health claims. It is as deleterious to boys as much as it is to women, yet I have never heard it called "male genital mutilation." The focus should not be a moral panic on saving women from their men (actually, in my daughter's case it's her GRANDMOTHER that is asking us to cut her...), but on the sexual health of our children regardless of sex.

                Both should be banned for children with the exception of necessary surgical intervention (phimosis etc).

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                  Not so sure about that. I can only speak from anecdotal experience, but my wife experiences orgasm pretty much every time we have sex. While I would like to attribute this to my own skills, a more likely reason is that her clitoris is somewhat more exposed and easier to satisfy than a woman who is uncut. Having had sex with other women as comparison, I would venture that I have an easier time bringing her to orgasm than any other female partner I've had. It could just be her, I could just be "well seasoned," but I suspect it's the circumcision. Indeed, Islamic sources suggest this to be the case, and I do see some potential for it to be true. I'm sure that other men on this forum have had sex with cut women, and many of them may be unaware their partners are cut. I suspect that millions of women in Indonesia are cut. If anyone else has experience in this matter I'm all ears and somewhat curious.

                  Now, that doesn't mean that children should have their prepuce excised (male or female) because it might offer a sexual benefit down the road. The proper course of action is to allow teenagers or adults to decide for themselves if they want to fulfill a religious obligation and cut the prepuce.

                  Calling it female genital mutilation is unhelpful, though. In Indonesia it's really nothing of the sort. I can see merit to claiming it happens on occasion in Africa, where sometimes truly brutal cutting occurs. But here? It's the same as a circumcision for a boy. Let's ban both for children and allow adults to seek the procedure for themselves. Seems like a win/win solution to me.
                  Most of what you say is conjecture supported by a bit of personal and meaningless boastfulness. I cannot say that I have read anything where proponents justify the practice as a method to enhance sexual pleasure for women. Its historical intent goes more to putting the temptress gender in its subordinate place.

                  But in your post there is a bit of wheat among the chaff. FGM of minors should rightly remain illegal and severely punished. Adults on the other hand do and should have dominion over their own bodies. Its entirely up to them if they wish to have ink shot under their skin, to place studs through appendages, have their tits enlarged, or to have their genitals altered or removed.

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                  • #24
                    My previous posted ended with:
                    [COLOR=#333333]"the line between voluntary/involuntary can get very blurry for supposedly consenting adults (though not for children)."

                    I never said I'm against schooling. I only said it's an example of involuntary action imposed by authority (religion, government, family, etc.).

                    Vaccines can have consequences other than death. US Congress recognized that in a compensation law some 20 years ago. Pertussis in particular was revised by pharmaceutical companies in order to reduce problems.

                    Those who say "no benefit" for circumcision usually just want to deny evidence, including the anecdotal type offered by Dan. I really have not seen evidence one way or the other on the topic that isn't rooted in personal experience and subjectivity.

                    [/COLOR]As I said, there are many aspects of life that are involuntary, so one ought to ask oneself why one feels that female (and male) circumcision and labioplasty are barbaric while other painful traditions such as tooth filing in Bali are “quaint”. It must be that there’s something inherently abhorrent about the action itself; the involuntary aspect is what makes it *more* outrageous.


                    Most people would agree that infants have minimal free will, but children have a significant amount (more than adults find it convenient to admit), and adults have the most. But “voluntary” or “consenting” for an adult is not always clear-cut. A Balinese would face social ostracism for refusing to have teeth filed, and a convert to Islam for marriage purposes would face a serious obstacle for refusing circumcision.


                    In western culture today, the compulsion to maintain sexual attractiveness at its peak is oppressive if not obsessive. So, one might ask how “free” a wealthy woman is when she chooses labioplasty. Similarly but less intimately, some Asian men (Japan, Singapore, etc.,) feel compelled to get plastic surgery to make their jaw look “stronger” because it improves their prospects for promotion at work and/or success in dating.


                    At what age does genital modification become voluntary? International guidelines on the definition of adulthood are sometimes contradictory or hypocritical. WHO exerts great power with its claim that biological maturity occurs universally at 18. Thus, a 17-year-old Indonesian sex worker is counted as a “child prostitute” even though she (or he) has the right to vote, get a passport, etc. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent


                    It might be instructive to click on the “Talk” tab on the WP page about “genital modification and mutilation” to see why the consensus among volunteer editors is to combine both topics. Free will isn’t always obvious.

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                    • #25
                      More clap trap, half truths, unrelated and disingenuous analogies and erroneous conclusory remarks in support of barbarism. Still disgusting.

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                      • #26
                        One need only glance at The Great Wall of Vagina to see how Labiaplasty could be of benefit.

                        http://www.greatwallofvagina.co.uk/home

                        As far as FGM, I appreciate Dan's situation and can only say that my experience has been similar with some uncut women and resulted in me feeling left out. Except for post coital fellatio.
                        Some of the chapters of my life are pretty boring but some of the pages are fascinating.

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                        • #27
                          Dan and Interloper, I dare say that has a whole lot more to do with the women involved and their brains...not their genitalia: "circumcised" or not.
                          Last edited by Michelle O'Brien; 25-03-14, 07:30.
                          Things happen for a reason...

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                          • #28
                            How men view their sexual performance is also more a mental that a physical exercise, where reality is seen through a prism generally labeled the male ego.

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                            • #29
                              This topic was for me unknown untill last summer when i found out that my daughter was exposed to this evil barbaric procedure, my wifes family (sister and mother) had it done without our knowledge some time ago. My beatiful little girl is now 5 yrs old and luckily unaware of what happened to her. I am furious though, my wife was also for a while but seem to have "gotten over" this issue since she herself and all females in her family had it done to them.

                              Would like to find out what I can do about this? Report to police or any other government department? Would my embassy be likely to support me in relocating my children? You see, I have a 3 month old baby girl now, and I'm terrified they will do it again...

                              Please advise.
                              No one creed has a monopoly on spiritual truth.

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