Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Abortion Statistics Suprise - USA and Indonesia Compared.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Abortion Statistics Suprise - USA and Indonesia Compared.

    [SIZE=4] Indonesia[/SIZE]


    Population 238 million. Assume half are women. 119 million.
    33 million women less than 15 in age
    17.5 million women above 45 in age

    Women outside of child bearing age 33+17.5 = 50.5 million.
    2 million abortions per year
    Number of women of child bearing age: (119 - 50.5) = 68.5 million

    Abortions per capita (women) 2/68.5 = 0.02919708 per year


    29.2 abortions per 1000 women


    (15 - 44 years of age per year)

    [SIZE=4]United States[/SIZE]

    Population 313 Million

    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...million-people


    19.58 abortions per 1000 women
    (15 - 44 years of age per year. This is the latest (2008) figure published.)


    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/graphusabrate.html



    [SIZE=4]Conclusion[/SIZE]



    Indonesia has 49% more abortions than the United States per 1000 women of child bearing age.
    This is despite Indonesia being generally considered as more traditional, conservative and religious than the United States.

    I was surprised by this.

    A shocking estimate from the essaybank article is that 330 000 Indonesian women die each year in illegal abortion operations.


    During medical complications, saving the life of a mother is generally prefered by society over saving the life of a fetus.
    The slaughter of so many women would suggest this preference is not being applied. There is a double hit on a fetus and a mother.
    Secondly, the law does not seem to be effective in preventing or discouraging fetus termination by abortion because they are 49% higher than in the U.S.

    Allowing abortion to become a form of contraception, as in the West, has a great moral and cultural downside to it.
    I believe "sex education" at a very young age as practised in the West exacerbates the situation. (see The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America)
    Is the influence of Western media in Indonesia (Hollywood, HBO, music, etc) that promote sex anytime, any gender, anywhere with anyone to blame?, in a country with little on no sex education?
    Actually, I believe "sex education" counts for nought. What teenager grows up without knowing what his/her sex organ is for and the consequences of using it?

    This is a very complex and serious issue. It seems logical that the only policies possible are liberalisation or a crackdown (with a budget for the police) on illegal abortion operators. The slaughter of so many women is a traumatizing thought.

  • #2
    Interesting comparison until I got to your muddled comments on sex education. Out of one side of your mouth sex education exacerbates, on the other side, the lack of it exacerbates. Educating everyone to the fullest has long been deemed in society's best interests and a public responsibility. I fail to understand how education of children using facts and science about sex and gender is so differently categorized than other subjects taught in school. It is amazing that anyone today would imply that children are better off too get their sex education on the street, rather than in the public school classroom. The sooner the titter-titter, hush-hush, whispered taboos, men with uncontrollable urges and women as evil temptresses views of sex are in the trash bin, the better off will we all be. Likewise, the sooner that sex as a commodity is separated from the sin seller and purveyors of superstition the better, especially for women.
    Last edited by waarmstrong; 24-06-13, 22:25.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by nobicycle View Post
      [SIZE=4] [/SIZE]
      A shocking estimate from the essaybank article is that 330 000 Indonesian women die each year in illegal abortion operations.


      During medical complications, saving the life of a mother is generally prefered by society over saving the life of a fetus.
      The slaughter of so many women would suggest this preference is not being applied. There is a double hit on a fetus and a mother.
      You seem to assume that illegal abortions are performed by professionals. I think you will find that many are performed by people who have little medical training and the high mortality rate among mothers has little to do with societal preferences not being applied and is simply the result of botched operations.
      "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
      George Bernard Shaw

      Comment


      • #4
        If Hombre was still here, he would had a talk about appearance over substance.

        Matter of appearance, pregnancy are really not welcome outside of wedding for many Indonesian... leading to a lot of hidden abortion (see upper post of lantern).
        La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

        Comment


        • #5
          Not exactly sure what the Islam view of abortion is. In the Christian beliefs, the Catholics in particular have a strong abhorrence to abortion as well as some other Christian churches. However, there are some Christian Churches that are more neutral and the U.S. has about 10-15% agnostic/atheistic group that doesn't object to abortion.

          From the statistics referenced, Islam does not have a strong objection to abortion or do people ignore this in practice?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Tall Tiger View Post
            Not exactly sure what the Islam view of abortion is. In the Christian beliefs, the Catholics in particular have a strong abhorrence to abortion as well as some other Christian churches. However, there are some Christian Churches that are more neutral and the U.S. has about 10-15% agnostic/atheistic group that doesn't object to abortion.

            From the statistics referenced, Islam does not have a strong objection to abortion or do people ignore this in practice?
            When the book was write, I'm not sure a word even exist for describe "abortion".
            But I'm sure it have a talk about pregnancy outside of wedding...
            La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

            Comment


            • #7
              Wrong. Induced abortion dates back to 2700 BCE. Ancient Egyptians, Chinese and Romans practiced pregnancy terminations.
              "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
                Wrong. Induced abortion dates back to 2700 BCE. Ancient Egyptians, Chinese and Romans practiced pregnancy terminations.
                Yep, but Egypt, China or Italy is not from where the book (and language) come from...
                La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tall Tiger View Post
                  Not exactly sure what the Islam view of abortion is.
                  There is no consensus but most islamic scholars agree termination of pregnancy after 120 days is not permissible. In Indonesia, abortion is illegal with exception for cases where there is a risk on the life, health and/or mental health of the mother. Curiously, rape is not excepted.
                  "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by redsnapr View Post
                    ... Curiously, rape is not excepted.

                    If the reason for not allowing abortion is right to life, then it doesn't make sense to make an exception for rape since the product of rape still is an innocent child. Put another way, if you equate abortion with murder, then why would you allow murdering one child but not another when that child has done nothing wrong.


                    I'm not advocating the above position, just pointing out that it is logical.
                    "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -Thomas Paine.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      waarmstrong said: "Out of one side of your mouth sex education exacerbates, on the other side, the lack of it exacerbates. "
                      Correct. The evidence in the book (see link) shows that US style sex education exacerbates the unwanted births. Is it Governments task or parents?
                      How much? at What age? Is handing out Government leaflets to 12 year olds telling them an orgasm a day is healthy (UK) a positive? Homosexuality talk to 5 year olds (UK)?
                      My personal view is I find it incredible that even an 8 year old would be ignorant of what sexual reproduction was.


                      lantern said: "You seem to assume that illegal abortions are performed by professionals."
                      No, I realise they are illegal and "backstreet" in Indonesia.

                      I made the post after reading about the annual fate of 300 000 women. No comments or indignation about that so far.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nobicycle View Post
                        I made the post after reading about the annual fate of 300 000 women. No comments or indignation about that so far.

                        Silly insinuations that people who disagree with you don't care about women only weaken your arguments. You know perfectly well, or should know, that advocates for fact-based sex education, accessible birth control, and legal abortion care deeply about the well-being of young girls. It sickens me to think of desperate, terrified teens who have no choice but to resort to a back-alley abortion practitioner who may or may not have a clue what they're doing.

                        Forget "indignant." I'm appalled.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm literally dumbfounded by your "conclusion". How can someone who is obviously reasonably educated and intelligent come up with conclusions that are almost exactly the opposite of what should have been concluded. For instance,

                          Indonesia: 29.2 abortions per 1000 women, United States 19.58 abortions per 1000 women

                          yet you conclude

                          [COLOR=#333333]I believe "sex education" at a very young age as practised in the West exacerbates the situation.[/COLOR]
                          Huh??? Is 29.2 now smaller than 19.58? Is there a new definition of "exacerbate" that I am not aware of?

                          [COLOR=#333333]Actually, I believe "sex education" counts for nought. What teenager grows up without knowing what his/her sex organ is for and the consequences of using it?[/COLOR]
                          No. If anything you should conclude that sex education counts for reducing the abortion rate by almost 10 abortions per 1000 women (yes I realize this is an oversimplification, but it is a far more reasonable conclusion than what you came up with). The main point of sex education is to teach kids how to approach sex in a safe manner, how to limit the transmission of disease and, most relevant to this discussion, how to reduce unwanted pregnancy. As your own statistic shows "western style sex education" seems to be working. Indonesians can bury their heads in the sand and pretend that no one is having sex outside of marriage, thus no need to have sexual education, but statistics speak for themselves.

                          [COLOR=#333333]A shocking estimate from the essaybank article is that 330 000 Indonesian women die each year in illegal abortion operations.[/COLOR]
                          [COLOR=#333333]During medical complications, saving the life of a mother is generally prefered by society over saving the life of a fetus. [/COLOR]
                          [COLOR=#333333]The slaughter of so many women would suggest this preference is not being applied.[/COLOR]
                          No, the slaughter of so many women is directly in the hands of the people who are against providing reasonable sex education, contraception and safe and legal abortions. Illegal abortions are usually performed in "back alley clinics", without proper supplies, by personnel that are not medically trained.

                          [COLOR=#333333]This is a very complex and serious issue. It seems logical that the only policies possible are liberalisation or a crackdown (with a budget for the police) on illegal abortion operators.[/COLOR]
                          Yes, and no reasonable actions can be taken as long as the people in charge refuse to acknowledge two things that are universally true:

                          1) People will have sex and women will get pregnant.
                          2) People will seek to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

                          Once your eyes are opened to these facts, the course of action is obvious.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dafluff, I think nobicycle believe sex education is a course where you learn about how do sex, what are the different position and how to arouse a woman who is not (still) your wife...

                            (For people who don't understand about sarcasm, I believe nobicycle have no idea of the contain and purpose of a sexual education)
                            La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is from the third link from OP

                              [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] "The women who don't have access to legal abortion often try to end their pregnancy by their-self through consume specific foods (Pineapple, Black Beer etc) and beverages as well as do specific activities (jump many times)"[/FONT]

                              [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]My wife has told me about members of her family that have fallen pregnant and told me similar and very graphic storys (things i couldn't post here) from the storys ive heard i totally believe what the OP has brought to light. [/FONT]

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X