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The ever since 1961 recognized West Papua Melanesian State & the ANZUS Alliance

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Snooky View Post
    Ok, so we have established that i.) letting Papua go is unacceptable and/or undesirable, and ii.) that "[COLOR=#333333]Indonesia is ill equipped to embark on a development path", and therefore the Papua problem is not going to be solved through development. You got any other ideas for extricating yourselves from the corner?

    [/COLOR]
    The same way other countries did it when they were developing: tough it out and keep going. A company or a person can declare bankruptcy, a country doesn't have that option.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Snooky View Post
      Ok, so we have established that i.) letting Papua go is unacceptable and/or undesirable, and ii.) that "[COLOR=#333333]Indonesia is ill equipped to embark on a development path", and therefore the Papua problem is not going to be solved through development. You got any other ideas for extricating yourselves from the corner?

      [/COLOR]
      LOL, for point (i) it is quite clear that this is the case.

      For point (ii), your sweeping statement of "Indonesia is ill-equipped to embark on a development path" is of highly dubious validity since Indonesia is actually registering one of the highest growth rate in the world during current global crisis, and has reached middle-income nation status despite its huge population.

      Now that we have corrected your erroneous statement, please again describe what "corner" from where we supposedly need to "extricate" ourselves?

      The only party being cornered here is the hopeless Papuan separatists, as demography, history, geopolitics, and all other factors is against them. Do you agree?

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      • #33
        I'm having a tough time deciding who's more of a dreamer and a joke: Kobe or Purnomor

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        • #34
          ^ What is wrong, Snooky? Are you feeling cornered?

          Since it seems you think Indonesia is an inept country full of inept people, maybe you need to read the following information regarding Indonesia's ability regarding "development path":

          http://www.asiantrademagazine.com/20...ard-chartered/

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          • #35
            Furthermore with this stability-pact the US managed to maintain its interests by backing the CIA trained president Suharto for more than 30 years
            hmm..so Suharto was CIA secret agent?

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            • #36
              Papua represents just over 1% of the Indonesian population and military presence is in the order of 5%? In the Papua I live in the military presence is very overt. Open intimidation does happen, including razing down villages.

              I have seen a small unrest responded to with a deployment of 32 BRIMOB soldiers in an already heavily deployed area with significant ammunitions - their rotation was for 3 months. Very little in the way of aid (or just basic BULOG Beras) seems to go to these places. I understand the strategic reasoning for this though.

              On the comparison to the funding over Java, it does pay to point out that Papua has little in the way of inter-town road networks. The maintenance of the infrastructre in Java may not be to a high standard or sometimes at all but significant infrastructure it does have. Consider the operating costs of a Boeing 737 Freighter or Antonov 26 to the operating costs of a Hino Rig or a Mitsubishi L300 and you go some way to understanding the greater cost involved.

              In the years I've been here the pace of progress seems to be very slow when compared to other parts of Indonesia. I know corruption both within the region and from Central Government has likely contributed to this but it does not win hearts and minds.

              In terms of overall well-being I don't think that Independence is the answer, you only have to look across the border to see the problems that would be faced. However, there is a very heavy hand being administered by the Government and TNI here and I don't think the many human rights abuses can be ignored. There needs to be greater progress.
              Last edited by BulePilot; 01-02-12, 13:29.

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              • #37
                In today's Jakarta Globe:

                [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Arial]Australia Rejects Papuan Independence[/FONT][/COLOR]
                [COLOR=#808080][FONT=Arial]September 02, 2012[/FONT][/COLOR]

                [COLOR=#000000][FONT=sans-serif]"Australia categorically rejected Papuan independence Sunday saying it could not lead to a viable nation and would “completely rupture” ties with Indonesia were Canberra to weigh in.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                [COLOR=#000000][FONT=sans-serif]Foreign Minister Bob Carr said public opinion in Australia was “in support of Indonesian sovereignty over the two Papuan provinces” and though Canberra pressed Jakarta on human rights in the region its own position was firm.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                [COLOR=#000000][FONT=sans-serif]“Our opposition to Papuan secessionism is founded on pragmatism and principle,” Carr told Sky News".


                "[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=sans-serif]Carr on Sunday denied that Papuan independence was a matter of diplomatic concern between the nations but counseled Australians, particularly religious and trade union groups, against supporting the separatist movement.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                [COLOR=#000000][FONT=sans-serif]“The cost of engaging at a serious level in that sort of activity would be a complete rupture in Australia-Indonesia relations,” the foreign minister said.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                [COLOR=#000000][FONT=sans-serif]“It would serve no good whatsoever because the nation that they would be seeking to create would not be viable, and were it to be created — and that is inconceivable — Australia would be picking up the bill.”
                [/FONT][/COLOR]http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/...endence/541815
                "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                George Bernard Shaw

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                • #38
                  Dear participants, good to see you again!

                  As independence is getting a topic, inorder to keep all eyes on this ball, please see below summary & links for distribution:

                  Indonesia's fragile & corrupt democracy is only being legitimized by the willingness of the western world to let this totalitair regime continue.
                  Nightly droppings of Muslim Jihad-killers of all nationalities on West Papua Melanesia's mainland have to stop immediately. Divide & conquer tactics & intimidation by TNI& BRIMOB security forces must stop & SBY has to be convicted for COMMITTING STATE TERROR in the Papua Region.

                  The wrongful implementation of the 1962 New York Agreement still needs to be re-implemented to its merites & purpose (the referendum obligation) by the UN-C24 & the ANZUS Alliance has to safeguard West Papua Melanesia's New Referendum which has it's basis in the 1947 Canberra Agreement.

                  The US should urge the Dutch as co-signers of the 1962 New York Agreement to get an ICJ verdict over RI's administration over Papua,and RI's breach of the 1962 NY Agreement contract. As the US orchestrated the handover of West Papua to Indonesia in 1962, Papuans are welcoming the rebuild of US troops.
                  After a 50 year-period of prooven RI-MISMANAGEMENT, the US has should act accordingly and take back West Papua Melanesia now.

                  To what extend does West Papua needs to be a part of this corrupt NKRI? West Papua Melanesia is ready to finance a new democratic deal of the non- corrupt kind from who ever offers Good Governance. Let's roll out this tender! RI's time in West Papua Melanesia is over.

                  Please find enclosed these links with HD footage on the political history, to compare with the RI-indoctrinated history on its victory over West Papua:

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBxZk9mqQsQ

                  and

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g5z5s0dm_U

                  and

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtFO0n8pfCc


                  Insja Allah / Na Kores Kaku Ra Refo!
                  Setia Djudjur Mesra!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by purnomor View Post
                    ^ What is wrong, Snooky? Are you feeling cornered?

                    Since it seems you think Indonesia is an inept country full of inept people, maybe you need to read the following information regarding Indonesia's ability regarding "development path":

                    http://www.asiantrademagazine.com/20...ard-chartered/
                    Dear participants,

                    Can we please get an opinion on this forum on the signals that president elect Jokowi once in power, is planning to put no more effort in the RI stolen territory of West Papua Melanesia? This due to the fact that, if RI wants to become a mature grown respectable economic superpower, it has to cut loose West Papua Melanesia because of consistent failing of Good Governance efforts and ongoing bad publicity? It is for a fact that democracy stops at West Papua, and the Indonesian state is even more consequently being held accountable for the barbaric way they handle Papuans.

                    Also in earlier posts on this forum we called out for the stop of allowing nightly boat droppings of young Muslim Jihad extremists of all descent in our country, who are clearly in our country with an agenda. We believe now the time has come for RI to deal with this by inorder to maintain World Peace instead of subjugating West Papuans as we are not the enemy.

                    As West Papua's political status remains a cliffhanger within decolonisation politics, let's carry out below scenario

                    Please consider the break-away of West Papua/ Melanesia from Indonesia through Self determination as simple mathematics as The original 1945 Proklamasi Sukarno-Hatta was from “A till A” (Atjeh till Ambon), and DID NOT include West Papua. Because on that same day West Papua tribal leaders led by Marcus Wonggor KaisiĆ«po, issued a statement in Kota Nica to RADEN Colonel Abdul Kadir Widojojoatmodjo of the NICA (Netherlands-Indies Civil Administration) which was governing West Papua. The message was simple: “West Papua Melanesia would determine its own future and therefore will never be a part of the new Indonesian state”.

                    Any historical claim of Indonesia on West Papua is not funded as this 1945 statement widely expressed the Will of the West Papua people. On this basis the 1947 Canberra Agreement was signed, recognizing West Papua as a Nation and recognizing it’s Melanesian territorial borders and establishing the South Pacific Commission. Please carry out the 1962 New York Agreement. How RI is living up to it’s Pancasila or manages its Bhinekka Tunggal Ika is of no interest whathowever to West Papua Melanesia. As the US in 1962 handed over West Papua to the barbaric RI Generals regime, now is the time for the US to take back again West Papua from RI by using the UN C-24 & The Netherlands and review the 1962 New York Agreement to its merites and purpose and operate on basis of the ANZUS Treaty. See historical link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtFO0n8pfCc . RI’s time in West Papua Melanesia is definately over.

                    Setia Djudjur Mesra!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Kobe Oser View Post
                      How RI is living up to it’s Pancasila or manages its Bhinekka Tunggal Ika is of no interest whathowever to West Papua Melanesia.
                      And it should be of no interest to anyone: Pancasila is a defective piece of propaganda that exists as mere window dressing without any concern for Indonesia's many ethnic minorities. The nation prides itself, supposedly, on diversity and yet the expression it gives to the world is nearly 100% Java. For this reason, I have long called Indonesia Javanesia, a colonial expression of Java. Indonesia's subject peoples replaced a distant foreign colonial master for a nearby, regional colonial master. Nowhere is this more apparent than in West Papua.

                      It is my wish that you and other separatists, particularly those of Aceh, achieve all that you seek.

                      Originally posted by Kobe Oser View Post
                      RI’s time in West Papua Melanesia is definately over.
                      I wish this were true, but I am also inherently gloomy about West Papua's chances. They have systematically replaced Melanesians, a tactic also used throughout much of Sumatra.

                      My suggestion is that you collaborate more with like-minded separatists for your own home nations. My perception of Jokowi is that he is weak, and that now is the time to strike. They will not let you go via democratic processes, and they have ensured that by effectively replacing Papuans in their own homeland. They will argue that they cannot let you go because so many Austronesians now live in West Papua. They will argue that harga magi will not allow them to break up fair Nusantara.

                      And so you must coordinate with other separatists. Insurgency worked for Aceh, and they continue to push for greater autonomy as a launchpad for true independence. But they will never willingly let you go, never.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                        Pancasila is a defective piece of propaganda that exists as mere window dressing without any concern for Indonesia's many ethnic minorities.
                        Dan, a more polite expression (in case someone official here ever asks you) would be to channel/paraphrase Gandhi:
                        "I think it would be a good idea."

                        http://quotes.dictionary.com/Reporte...o_you_think_of

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                          And it should be of no interest to anyone: Pancasila is a defective piece of propaganda that exists as mere window dressing without any concern for Indonesia's many ethnic minorities.
                          OK, so just what fits with all ethic minorities? I doubt any country could find something everyone likes. Take your own Ache. What does anyone like outside the supporters of Sharia?
                          [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
                            OK, so just what fits with all ethic minorities? I doubt any country could find something everyone likes. Take your own Ache. What does anyone like outside the supporters of Sharia?
                            Nothing needs to fit with all minorities, the locals have their own interpretations of ethnic nationalism and identity that they support. For example, both the Acehnese and Gayonese support an independent Aceh. They share the same religious values. They are the indigenous peoples of the province. Therefore, their desire for independence is based upon Aceh nationalism, not shari'a. They seek to use Qanun Aceh, the local traditional law, but that is not 100% pure shari'a. That's why it's slightly untruthful to say that Aceh has shari'a.

                            What needs to be considered is this: Indonesia is a land of indigenous peoples primarily along with a few outside ethnic minorities; most notably the Chinese. Do those indigenous peoples have a right to self-determination? Who are the Javanese, the primary boosters and beneficiaries of Indonesia, to tell them that they must remain if they overwhelmingly reject Indonesia? What is the supposed glue that holds together an "Indonesian" identity? Is it superior to ethnic nationalism?

                            It's not like the United States, a nation with a vague, amorphous identity. There was an independent Aceh prior to Indonesia. It did just fine. The Acehnese are aware of this. The feeling is that, at worst, an independent Aceh would be a lateral move.

                            The same principles should exist for Melanesians, perhaps more so as they are distinct from Austronesians. And when I consider the role they play in Indonesian society, I am horrified. I rarely saw them on TV, curiously only as athletes. The depictions were normally unflattering, particularly on comedy shows. I got the distinct feeling they were considered second-class.

                            Why should they or anyone persist in a country they feel treats them as second-class citizens? There is no future for such peoples in Indonesia.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Now fast, something else you must consider about my position is the deeply personal experience I had with separatists. Many of my relatives were victimized by agents of Indonesia in the name of Indonesian "unity." When such people can tell you not about things that happened to others, but to themselves, it gets to you. When you meet with women who were raped by the forces sent to "protect them," when you see the scars of people tortured, when you see the photos of people who "disappeared," it gets to you. It lets you know that Indonesia, for all of its pomp and platitudes, is a lie. I can understand that others have suffered too, and still believe in Indonesia and its ideals. That's great. Good for them. What matters is how the indigenous people feel about their own destiny. They view Indonesia as a colonial power. Truth be told, I can't find fault with their logic.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Dan, at one time there were a lot of different empires that now make up Indonesia. Some are quite a bit smaller then they were at that time since some of them even incorporated parts of Malaysia. Many countries are made up of their little empires all pit together in a package to govern as a nation. Ache is but one of them. Pretty hard to separate something that is part of the actual land mass of Indonesia Sumatra. If it were an Island perhaps. I for myself have no problem with Ache becoming independent but I can also see why the nation wouldn't want the separation. Same goes for Papua although the amount of natural resources will probably keep them under Indonesia forever. No country is just willing to just say, OK, take what you want of the countries land, set the boarders, and we won't bother you. That isn't going to happen. You want a fight but do you really want so many Acheans to die because of it? They are vastly out numbered and overpowered. Who came to their defense in their past armed conflicts? Sure, there are always those willing to fight for their cause and even die for it but, what about all those that do not want to die for it but because of the side taken, they do? I would think it better to be productive and live above ground then unproductive being buried under it.
                                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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