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The ever since 1961 recognized West Papua Melanesian State & the ANZUS Alliance

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Snooky View Post
    By the same token, you should condemn the Indonesian nationalist propaganda and indoctrination that has been used to malign separatism and used as license to justify homicide, torture and repression. Wasn't hyping up the fear of Communism the convenient pretext for the adventure in Timor? For good or for bad, agree with it or not, Kobe is only using the same tactics that Indonesia has used to delegitimate, demonize and combat its own internal enemies. Like Indonesians against the Dutch, he's learned to deploy the tools and tactics of the colonial master against the colonial master. Siapa gurunya?
    If in your view he's just as crooked as other Indonesians, then there is no reason for other countries to support him. When two criminals fight, there's no advantage in interfering. If he plays clean, then he has the moral high ground of freedom. Now that he plays dirty, he's just another guy from Indonesia who is disaffected with the government.

    What would happen to Muslim residents of Papua when this guy gets his way?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Injun View Post
      he's just another guy from Indonesia who is disaffected with the government.
      From the links he's provided and the way he said the slogan in the old spelling, it looks to me he's a Dutch resident instead.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ricky_id View Post
        From the links he's provided and the way he said the slogan in the old spelling, it looks to me he's a Dutch resident instead.
        I know he is most likely a Dutch resident, but in the context of dirty tricks he's no better than Indonesians he sought to vilify. Papua is still part of Indonesia, so a Papuan is technically still an Indonesian. Well, unless he has become a citizen of the Netherlands.

        It's amusing that he sought to raise the fear of Islam, yet he uses "Insja Allah" as a slogan.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Injun View Post
          If in your view he's just as crooked as other Indonesians, then there is no reason for other countries to support him. When two criminals fight, there's no advantage in interfering. If he plays clean, then he has the moral high ground of freedom. Now that he plays dirty, he's just another guy from Indonesia who is disaffected with the government.

          What would happen to Muslim residents of Papua when this guy gets his way?
          By the same token, following your line of argumentation about Indonesia being just as crooked, there is no reason for other countries to support Indonesia's continued occupation of Papua. Perhaps the best that can be said of the present arrangement is that the other alternatives are unknown, untested and probably worse.

          In Papua, Indonesia has painted itself into a corner, due to its own hubris, nationalist delusions, incompetence and brutality. It is neither willing or able to countenance even an honorable, gradual, peaceful, negotiated constitutional secession, but neither is it able to hold on and rule without the use of force and repression, or to competently bring the development that the territory needs. That is an undeniable fact that exists with or without the Kobe Osers.

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          • #20
            This Kobe Oser again shows that the Papuan "separatism" is purely based on Stone-Age variant of "Naziism", childish wishful thinking, delusional denial of reality, and childish scavenging of irrelevant and inane events from dustbin of history.

            Let me give some examples to justify my assertion:
            1) Papuan separatism is based on backward racism, based on Kobe Oser's constant attempts to attack Javanese and other Western Indonesians just because they have different race.
            2) Papuan separatism is based on religious intolerance, based on Kobe Oser's constant statements of hatred on Muslims and attempts to promote Islamophobia.
            3) Papuan separatism is based on childish wishful thinking, based on Kobe Oser's ridicilous statements that USA will somehow "invade" Indonesia over Papua due to ANZUS Treaty, which is ridicilous. Not only ANZUS has nothing to do with Indonesia, US President Obama repeatedly praised Indonesian unity. ANZUS Treaty is only valid if someone invade Australia & NZ whereby USA will aid Australia & New Zealand. Currently, no country in the world has any interest in invading these two countries.
            4) Papuan separatism is based on delusional denial of reality, based on Kobe Oser's imaginary beliefs that the "international community" is against Indonesia. While the reality is Indonesia has no enemies, and Indonesian unity is supported by all parties, from United Nations, United States, Europe, Australia, China, Papua New Guinea, Fiji, and every country in the world. Meanwhile, the Papuan separatists could not even gain recognition from fellow Melanesian countries PNG and Fiji.
            5) Papuan separatism is based on scavenging dustbin of history for inane and irrelevant events, such as Kobe Oser's attempts to use irrelevant statements by long-dead Dutch puppets which have been delegated to dustbin of history for half a century. Worse, these Papuan separatists are fond of creating imaginary stories and sell them as "history" just because they couldn't find facts to back their statements.

            Hence, we can conclude that Papuan separatism is merely manifestation of childish Stone Age variety of ethnic-chauvinism based on bizarre "anti-Javanese" and "anti-Muslim" themes. Based on their childish way of thinking and poor grasp of reality, I do not think Indonesia should waste time taking these people seriously.

            As I said before, all factors such as demography, history, geopolitics, etc are against the separatists.

            Originally posted by Snooky View Post
            By the same token, following your line of argumentation about Indonesia being just as crooked, there is no reason for other countries to support Indonesia's continued occupation of Papua. Perhaps the best that can be said of the present arrangement is that the other alternatives are unknown, untested and probably worse.
            Wrong, there is no reason for other countries to support Papuan separatism because no country in the world would like other countries to interfere in their internal affairs (Westphalia principle), hence they try their best not to interfere in other countries' affairs as well. Additionally, no country is interested in making war with Indonesia over Papua. Perhaps the best that can be said of present situation is no country in the world care about Papuan separatism.

            In Papua, Indonesia has painted itself into a corner, due to its own hubris, nationalist delusions, incompetence and brutality. It is neither willing or able to countenance even an honorable, gradual, peaceful, negotiated constitutional secession, but neither is it able to hold on and rule without the use of force and repression, or to competently bring the development that the territory needs. That is an undeniable fact that exists with or without the Kobe Osers.
            Wrong. Please describe what "corner" you are talking about? As far as I know, internationally every country in the world and the UN supported Indonesia's territorial integrity. Domestically, most Indonesians could not care less about Papuan separatism and in Papua itself Indonesian govt has strong de facto and de jure control with very little military and police presence (less than 5% of Indonesian military is posted in Papua) since most of Indonesian officials there are ethnic-Papuans themselves.

            What is an undeniable fact is there is no way secession of Papua can take place unless it is sanctioned by Indonesian govt itself (such as East Timor secession which was able to happen only because Indonesian President Habibie suddenly ask UN to hold independence referendum in 1999). There is no chance Indonesian govt will allow secession, just as common international practice (eg China will never allow independent Tibet, India will never let Kashmir go, Britain will never let Northern Ireland secede, etc).

            That is why, for all their "efforts" for the past 50 years, these incompetent and immature Papuan separatists never accomplish anything LOL. No wonder, considering how these separatists are completely dependent on empty hubris and childish wishful thinking.

            Hence, these childish Papuan separatists can dream as they like and scream until their mouth is foamy, but in the end Papua will remain part of Indonesia. Deal with it.
            Last edited by purnomor; 20-12-11, 22:03.

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            • #21
              The "corner" that you have a long-standing, protracted problem of violence and separatism on your national territory, and that you, your people and your government are far out of their depth in solving it. That "corner". That I even have to point it out to you is further evidence, were any more needed, of your myopia and delusional state.
              Last edited by Snooky; 20-12-11, 21:51.

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              • #22
                Well Purnomo, don't you acknowledge that what drives the Papuans into a struggle for independence is the unfair economic treatment that heavily favours Java and the surrounding islands?

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                • #23
                  @Snooky:
                  LOL, again no country in the world is immune from separatism due to base primordial instincts present in every human being who are suspicious of those of different race, religion, tribe, etc. China has problems in Tibet, India with Kashmir and Northeastern States, Turkey and Iraq with Kurdistan, Philippines and Thailand with its Muslims, Canada with Quebec, Britian with Northern Ireland, Spain with Basque Country, etc.

                  Compared to most of these separatist issues, Papua is a relative haven for peace due to the incompetence of the Papuan separatists. The main source of violence in Papua is the constant bloody tribal warfare between primitive Papuan tribes over land, pigs, and women. Thanks to Indonesian police presence, deaths from these tribal wars are being kept at a minimum.

                  Again, the root with Papuan separatism is their Stone Age racism against those with different race and religion from ethnic-Papuans (i.e. the Western Indonesian migrants which now makes-up 52% of Papuan population). No wonder, many of the Papuans could not even stand their neighboring tribe without engaging in "traditional" tribal warfare. It has nothing to do with good governance or economic prosperity. These concepts are too advanced to be comprehended by dumb Papuan separatists who are only recently emerging from the Stone Age.

                  That you are unable to view issues objectively and with big picture perspective shows your immature myopia and delusional state, far divorced from reality.

                  @ricky_id:
                  Again, read one of Kobe Oser's posts. He stated that his separatism is not related with economy etc, and he states whatever Indonesia do or give is of "no interest whatsoever" to separatists. With this kind of extremist and non-negotiable position, there is really nothing to "negotiate" between Indonesia and these people, correct?
                  Last edited by purnomor; 20-12-11, 22:26.

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                  • #24
                    What makes me wonder from KO's post is that he tries to insert the word Islam into what's supposed to be a simple separatism issue. However, what's your view though about the social unrest in Papua?

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                    • #25
                      ^ Well, it is simple. The Papuan separatists are trying to gain support from the West, still reeling from Islamic terror attacks, by smearing Indonesians as radical Muslims and themselves as the "defenseless Christians". Some gullible Western non-entity individuals who are Islamophobic might fell to these trickery, but of course the Western decision-makers are not that dumb and clueless.

                      I don't think social unrest in Papua is any worse than any other parts of Indonesia. I say, Indonesian govt should sit back and let Western Indonesians be 70% of the population of Papua by 2020 which will occur naturally given current demographic trends. Maybe by 2030-2040, the proportion of migrants can reach up to 90% of the population. These people will generate privately-generated economic growth which will benefit Papuans as well.

                      Invite domestic investors to come-in and develop Papua's economic potential, particularly in plantation industry. This will bring much-needed cash windfall and prosperity for the Papuans. Thanks to the plantation industry, GDP per capita levels in Sumatera and Kalimantan are already at par or even higher than Javanese GDP per capita.

                      From the government's side, provide some affirmative actions for native Papuans, especially in the field of education which can give high multiplier effect. Since Indonesia is not yet a rich country to finance these affirmative actions, get Freeport to surrender larger portion of its net profit to finance these schemes. The government can also utilise the well-financed and well-managed network of Indonesian and foreign Christian missionary network of schooling and health-care (ensuring that the missionaries are spreading correct Indonesian nationalism). I believe Indonesian govt is already being helped in providing many social services functions in remoter parts of Papua by these Christian networks for decades.

                      Since the Papuans are literally only recently emerging from Stone Age, it will take a long while before they can compete at par with other Indonesians in the modern world. For instance, it is only after 60 years of various (albeit uncoordinated) affirmative actions that you are now seeing competant native Indonesian tycoons capable of competing with the historically dominant ethnic-Chinese conglomeracy.

                      Stop current practice of throwing money into Papua, since most of the money will simply go into the pockets of corrupt officials, both in national level and local ethnic-Papuan officials. Thanks to the cash subsidies windfall, many native Papuan officials and tribal chiefs are now spending more time in Jakarta and Bali instead of working in the provinces itself. Instead, channel the money into high-multiplier projects such as education and infrastructure projects.

                      And of course, Indonesian security apparatus must maintain law and order to allow all of these plans to be realised, and to neutralise security threat from extremist separatists whenever they appear. The main actions of these separatists are to kill migrants, burn remote schools and attacking infrastructure workers.

                      Meanwhile, to keep your regular Papuan from racial animosity, Indonesian govt should continue funding and promoting Papuan culture to show that it appreciates the Melanesian culture. This way, there will be less racial frictions between the newly-arrived settlers and native Papuans.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Snooky View Post
                        By the same token, following your line of argumentation about Indonesia being just as crooked, there is no reason for other countries to support Indonesia's continued occupation of Papua.
                        You will find that the Indonesian government is fine without explicit support from the outside, as long as nobody interferes. It's guys like Kobe Oser who want other countries to be involved.

                        Perhaps the best that can be said of the present arrangement is that the other alternatives are unknown, untested and probably worse.
                        Indonesian government doesn't have a very good record of protecting religious rights of minorities, but at the very least the official position is that all recognized religions are equal. Contrast this with Kobe Oser's explicit Islamophobic and Melanesian-centric rhetoric. It's not hard to see that secession is going to bring worse things if it's driven by him.

                        In Papua, Indonesia has painted itself into a corner, due to its own hubris, nationalist delusions, incompetence and brutality.
                        Well, on the other hand we have Kobe Oser who thinks USA and Australia have a cause to invade Indonesia based on all sorts of misinterpretations. He wants these countries to basically declare war on Indonesia, thankfully nobody takes this delusion seriously.

                        It is neither willing or able to countenance even an honorable, gradual, peaceful, negotiated constitutional secession, but neither is it able to hold on and rule without the use of force and repression, or to competently bring the development that the territory needs. That is an undeniable fact that exists with or without the Kobe Osers.
                        Are you aware of a national constitution that authorizes secession? I don't think even the U.S. constitution has a provision for it.

                        Indonesia is far from perfect, as Suharto's legacy hasn't quite worn off yet. Nobody is going to argue that Indonesian central government is competent in anything, but Papua is not singled out for bad treatment. The 2011 budget for Papua is 20.6 trillion IDR for 2.9 million people, which comes to 7.1 million IDR per person. As comparison Jawa Barat in the same period gets 54.4 trillion IDR for 43 million people, which equals 1.26 million IDR per person.

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                        • #27
                          So, to summarize: Indonesia considers it neither desirable nor acceptable to let Papua go, yet it is ill equipped to embark on the development path that presumably would mitigate the problem. But even assuming that Indonesia could be successful in delivering development, it is far from certain that development will put out the flames of nationalism and seccessionism. In fact, there are reasons to think that development could further stoke the flames. Best of luck to you!

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                          • #28
                            ^ LOL, who says running a country of 250 million people is easy? Who ever says that running any country in the world is easy? Even running a small company with a few employees are full of challenges.

                            The challenge to develop and manage Papua is not more difficult than managing any other part of Indonesia. I do not think these miscellaneous challenges will cause any Indonesian officials to lose any sleep.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Snooky View Post
                              So, to summarize: Indonesia considers it neither desirable nor acceptable to let Papua go, yet it is ill equipped to embark on the development path that presumably would mitigate the problem.
                              Indonesia is ill equipped to embark on a development path, period. Part of being a developing country is learning how to do this development business and doing it at the same time. Do you really think we should call it quits and break up the country just because we're not fully competent yet?

                              But even assuming that Indonesia could be successful in delivering development, it is far from certain that development will put out the flames of nationalism and seccessionism. In fact, there are reasons to think that development could further stoke the flames. Best of luck to you!
                              There is no path guaranteed to eliminate separatism short of complete genocide.

                              If all Indonesia wants to do is ensure that Papua has no means to secede, then she would be better off cutting funding to Papua. Let Papuans live in reed huts and eat pigs barbecued with hot stones in the ground, forever. In that state they have no means to mount a successful rebellion nor to develop an intellectual class capable of presenting a coherent case for independence. In a couple of decades the indigenous population would be overtaken by immigrants, which would make independence impossible.

                              A prosperous Papua is more capable of seceding, but no Indonesian I know would choose to stunt Papua just to ensure that it remains part of Indonesia. That is not how you treat your brothers and sisters. Nobody is protesting that Papuans get more money than Javans, because Papua is a laggard region deserving extra resources in order to catch up with the rest of Indonesia. There's a reason we have a Ministry of Laggard Regions Development (Kementerian Pembangunan Daerah Tertinggal).

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                              • #30
                                Ok, so we have established that i.) letting Papua go is unacceptable and/or undesirable, and ii.) that "[COLOR=#333333]Indonesia is ill equipped to embark on a development path", and therefore the Papua problem is not going to be solved through development. You got any other ideas for extricating yourselves from the corner?

                                [/COLOR]

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