Dating Hijabers (Women who wear head scarfs.)

[Bayangputih]

Good morning everyone I do hope you are all doing well. There has been a question that has been on my mind for a very long time. As we expats in Indonesia know a lot of Indonesian women like wearing Hijab (head scarfs not veils.) Women often wear this to cover their aurat (to keep modest) either because they are really into Islam, forced to my family pressure, or like to wear it as a fashion statement (if you think my statement is crazy look at the hijab ladies who go to places like Grand Indonesia or places of that nature.)

There are plenty of Hijabers who are very beautiful, smart, and ooze charisma. However trying to date them is nearly impossible even if you are a mualaf like myself (for the record I am not dating anyone, speaking from experience before I got married.) From the data I have gathered they prefer guys who are Muslim, but Muslim locals. However if you are Arab or Indian (vast majority of hijab ladies I know are huge into Indian music and men for reasons I cannot fathom.) They seem to be terrified or just simply not interested in other expats especially white guys.

Which is very sad, because like I sad there are lots of Hijabers who would make amazing wifes and girlfriends. This leads to a few questions.

1. For women in conservative Muslim families is it forbidden to date expat men? Even if the expat man is a mualaf (revert)?

2. I've noticed that the few hijaber women who do date expats tend to remove their hijab when going out with expat man. Is it due to pressure from the man, or is there a social stigma for Hijabers to date foreigners especially if they are not Muslim?

3. What would be the best way to approach and date women who are conservative of that nature?

4. Are there any pros or cons of dating women who are very strongly into Hijabing (new term just made up?)

Thank you for your time.

[jimmi james]

Hijabers? It sounds offensive already.

[Bayangputih]

Hijabers? It sounds offensive already.

Actually its not offensive. Lot of Indonesian folks who berjilbab (from what I've seen on social media) call themselves Hijabers. If anyone out there was offended, no harm was meant.

[DanInAceh]

There are plenty of Hijabers who are very beautiful, smart, and ooze charisma. However trying to date them is nearly impossible even if you are a mualaf like myself (for the record I am not dating anyone, speaking from experience before I got married.) From the data I have gathered they prefer guys who are Muslim, but Muslim locals. However if you are Arab or Indian (vast majority of hijab ladies I know are huge into Indian music and men for reasons I cannot fathom.) They seem to be terrified or just simply not interested in other expats especially white guys.

That's not my experience at all. Your problem may be how identifiably Muslim you are. Let's face the facts: Westerners who convert to Islam in the archipelago typically do so at the behest of their spouse. If the marriage ends, so does the appearance of being Muslim. The women are aware of this, and if they are strong enough in their faith to cover they are likely also strong enough in their faith to reject men who are nominal Muslims. Trust me, each time I have a woman ask me if I am "Mustafa from Debu" I know they're very interested in white men who are Muslim. You just have to be involved and showing traits of belief.

Which is very sad, because like I sad there are lots of Hijabers who would make amazing wifes and girlfriends. This leads to a few questions.

1. For women in conservative Muslim families is it forbidden to date expat men? Even if the expat man is a mualaf (revert)?

There is no such commandment to forbid a woman from dating a man who is an observant Muslim. In fact, it's quite the opposite. There is a strong tradition of interracial marriage in Islam, and your Muslim identity is far more important than your skin.

My wife's family are very conservative, and their first question to my wife was "is he a good Muslim?" These women want a man who will be imam for their household, a man who will teach the kids to recite Qur'an and regularly attend the masjid (not just for jum'ah).

2. I've noticed that the few hijaber women who do date expats tend to remove their hijab when going out with expat man. Is it due to pressure from the man, or is there a social stigma for Hijabers to date foreigners especially if they are not Muslim?

Not at all. I have never had a problem. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I am identifiably Muslim. I regularly wear a tagiyah and I maintain a beard. I am known in my community and regularly attend prayers. So there's no social stigma that I know of.

If the women are "letting their hair loose" then perhaps they are wanting to not cover. For them, it may be family pressure and a foreigner is a way to express their desire for something new. Personally, I would avoid such a woman for a wife.

3. What would be the best way to approach and date women who are conservative of that nature?

What are your intentions? Do you want to meet a woman who will fulfill you and increase your iman? If you want to "date" these women you don't date them. Conservative Muslim families want to meet you right away. You go on a "date" with their whole family, because you are marrying a family and not a person. You should approach the woman's family as a whole and express your interest. The more religious the family, the more important it is that you display Sunnah characteristics.

My advice would be to go to the masjid regularly and let the men there know that you are available and that you are looking to marry. They may make some recommendations, they may try to set you up with someone if they think you are a good match. So too can you ask the women, it doesn't matter so long as you are doing it our way.

4. Are there any pros or cons of dating women who are very strongly into Hijabing (new term just made up?)

Thank you for your time.

A woman who is very observant is likely to have other traits of a good Muslim. If that resonates with you then I think you'll find a fine companion. Don't come into it with any set prejudices regarding such women, however, as they are like any other women in regard to their personal views and dreams.

Simply examine your intentions and ask yourself, "do I want to love a woman for the sake of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala)?" If the answer is yes, if you think you are looking to marry then by all means start actively seeking out marriage for your religion. If you are merely looking to date, I urge you to stay away.

[Missnaughty]

Why? Do you want to date a Muslim woman that wearing hijab? New dilemma

[mrcibubur]

It depends what you define as dating. Dating a woman who wears a hijab can mean many things and does not necessarily mean that you are dating her with the intention of having a sexual encounter, although many Indonesian women, it is perhaps true to say, do wear a hijab as a sort of disguise, cover up or muse, thereby outwardly seeming islamic and muslim while inwardly having western tendencies which might play the 'dating game' to attract the attention of the western man.

Social dating is very common in Indonesia and is done a lot by Indonesian woman as a marketing ploy, not for sexual purposes, and is sadly greatly misunderstood by many Western men. It is not a contradiction of my statement above but a supplement to it. This is my experience from living in Indonesia for many years now and associating with many mature women who wear the hijab.

Would it be wrong, for example, to say Julia Peres is not a true Muslim because of her known professional background and is therefore disentitled from practicing her faith and wearing a hijab? And many women like her.

Dan Aceh has made many relevant point on what I think most Muslim woman (and their families) would expect in the dating process with an Indonesian or Westerner who purported to be Muslim. Either you are a Muslim and adhere to the faith through the eyes of the woman and her family or you are open on all sides and be honest, as many of us are, that we are only Muslim on a piece of paper to comply with Indonesian Law for marriage and that it is the fact that we love the person we marry in an exchange of vows which is far more important than public perception of how (rather than if) we believe in God.

Yes, many Indonesian women wear hijabs as a fashion statement - and why not!

[namanyarita]

I am muslimah, but non conservative one. No wearing hijab yet for my very private reason. But I do respect all women who does. As I know from the history about decent women before Islam, eg; Mother Maria is also wearing a scarf in her head and. Also wear long out fit to covering all over her body. IMO, basicly the christian and islam has the same rule as a God servant, but with a different way and different application. Pros and cons are human's right. Religion is a very private relationship betwen the God and human's. We've got our own faith that we have to respected. And for your point of questions, I think there's another member who's really know islam will aswered. If am not wrong his name is Daninaceh.

[Alia]

..I think there's another member who's really know islam will aswered. If am not wrong his name is Daninaceh.

You obviously didn't read posts before yours.

[whatever]

Hijabers? It sounds offensive already.

It is not offensive jims. It is just okay, acceptable, it is widely used everywhere by people or media .
And Dan made an excellent post, thank you Dan.

[ScooterIndo]

it all comes back to want you want - if you are prepared to pray 5 times a day refuse pork and alcohol and generally prove yourself to be a good Muslim, then try your luck.

[namanyarita]

You obviously didn't read posts before yours.

Yeah, shame on me. I was sleepy for a while before I click submit replay. embarassed

[vanuatu]

Let's face the facts: Westerners who convert to Islam in the archipelago typically do so at the behest of their spouse. If the marriage ends, so does the appearance of being Muslim.

In all honesty (at least in Jakarta) no one I know who has converted to Islam for marriage, keeps up even the slightest pretense that they are a Muslim. I don't know a single convert who attends mosque, fasts during Ramadan, stopped drinking or eating pork or even slightly believes in Islam and this is out of my network of 100's of converts throughout the years.

[Mister Bule]

The first time I met the woman who is now my wife "in person" was during Idul Fitri (almost three years ago). We had been talking online almost every day for about six or seven weeks. I had just moved to Indonesia in the middle of that period. When I went to meet her in person, I was taken to her family's kampung and met her parents, sister and brothers and their spouses, aunties and uncles, nephews etc. I was made to understand in no uncertain terms that by taking me to her parents' house, the groundwork was being laid for establishing the "seriousness" of our relationship, even though I was introduced at that point only as a friend she had met online (which was basically the truth).

Even so, her parents (and the rest of her family) were still pretty shocked when I came back in October (I was in Sumatra, my future wife in Kalimantan), was taken to them again and we promptly asked for their blessing for marriage. I had not taken shahada at that time but they were told of my intention to do so, and I did a few weeks later. The next time I saw her / them was when I came back about two months later, a week before we were married.

Naturally her parents took some time to get used to the idea. They must have felt surprised and puzzled to be sure, but they gave blessing because she made it clear this was what she wanted and that she was sure Allah had sent me to her in answer of her prayers.

I also had some doubts in the time before we started making the wedding arrangements "for real", and even after that process was started. The main thing that was bothering me, apart from the obvious fact that I had chosen a particularly hard headed woman (thank you, Cat Stevens / Yusuf Islam), was her unwillingness to say, basically, "I choose you". I thought and felt that I needed to hear that from her, but she kept insisting again and again that I would choose her and marry her if it was Allah's will, she had no part in the choosing. "Just come and marry me if you are coming, if not, it doesn't matter to me." That seemed really almost asinine to me at the time (although I understand it much better now) and frankly seemed unacceptable.

On one particular evening, after talking with her online, I asked Allah to tell me if it was His will, if it was okay for me to marry her. There was no Voice From The Sky, but after I asked this question, a feeling of peace came over me the likes of which I have rarely, if ever, felt before. I took that to be definitively the answer I had asked for, and I proceeded with the paperwork and with conversion.

My wife was 39 when we married (I'm older than her by seven years). She had decided some years before that she wanted to fulfill her duty as a Muslimah to marry, and during those years she had prayed intensively for Allah to send her a good man if it was indeed 'nasib'.

When I found her online and soon declared my interest in her, of course she still wasn't sure, but just continued to pray and tried her best to "sound me out". When I didn't go away in spite of her "just do what you want to do, choose me, choose another, it's your life after all" attitude, she started to come around to the idea that maybe I was "serious" (meaning Allah was serious about me and her).

Though it still sounds strange to a lot of people, including many of our friends and family, when we met in person and spent some time together over a few days, the deal was essentially sealed.

We certainly didn't know each other well at all when we married, in terms of depth or of time and simple familiarity, and we had a lot of problems, "fights" and miscommunication especially in the first several months. As she puts it, when we chose to get married, we agreed to break the lives we each had before. That involves compromise, sacrifice and a lot of adjustment, and it doesn't necessarily come easily at all. Things are certainly not perfect between us now, but much smoother than in the beginning. A lot of things that were seen as big problems before are just shrugged off on both sides now. I guess that is naturally a part of the process of marriage, if it is to survive, you've got to shed the old skin and grow the new.

My wife, after more than two years of marriage, still believes that I am the "good man" that Allah sent in answer of her prayers.

As Allah knows, it's up to me to continually prove that to be true. I do thank Him sincerely and humbly for the opportunity. We are both very grateful to Him. I like to tell her that Allah found someone who is more stubborn than she is, and sent me directly to her.

"Your results may vary."

Sorry if this post has gone a bit off-topic in terms of your questions, but I think it's still at least partly relevant.

(edit) My wife and her family are not particularly "conservative" in the way that I understand Dan's use of the term, and my wife does not cover on a daily basis (i.e., most of the time she does not, just when going to wirid, during Eid, and so on), so maybe my whole example is outside the stated parameters here. She ain't a "hijaber" nor a "jilbobber". Still, she is, and they are "religious Muslims", so I think it still has some relevance.

If you are sincere about Islam and you approach such women (hijabers) directly but respectfully and sincerely, I'd think some of them would be interested or at least treat you on equal terms with other Muslim men.

[whatever]

I was waiting for MB, somehow I knew he would come and say something. Thank you
Such a beautiful love story, subhanallah. Your wife is lucky to have you, yang langgeng ya

[Michelle O'Brien]

Hijabers? It sounds offensive already.

Why??