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  • Baby's religion?

    Hi,

    Can anyone clarify the law about how a baby's religion is decided?  My wife is pregnant, and while the birth date is a while off I consider this highly important so want to start getting the facts.
    How is a newborn baby's religion decided, if at all?  My wife is nominally a member of religion X, and we married within religion X due to it being easier not to leave the country and for her family to be able to attend the wedding.  However, I will damned if I will have our child associated with religion X.  While my wife is not religious, her mother is a veritable fanatic, so I want to do whatever is necessary to make sure this child, if it comes to pass that it is in fact born, and healthy and normal, is kept as far away as possible from religion X.  Can anyone fill me in on the legalities of this matter....?

  • #2
    Poster's Note : I did not check if Law no.23 Year 2002 is still valid

    From https://www.hukumonline.com/klinik/d...ma-anak-di-kk/ , July 2012
    By Radian Adi, S.H. , Ilmu Hukum

    [Question :
    Good morning, I'm Grace. I want to know about the religious status of my child in KK/Family Card. So, my marriage certificate came from KUA. My husband and I are Muslim in KTP. Right now we are waiting for the birth of our first child and we don't have a Family Card yet because the marital status on the KTP hasn't changed either. Later, if I already have a KK, can our child have Christian status in the KK, even though the ID card and marriage certificate we are are Muslims? thanks.

    Answer :

    - Assumption 1: If you and your husband still embrace the religion in accordance with the Marriage Certificate and KTP.

    The definition of a child in Article 1 number 1 of Law No. 23 of 2002 concerning Child Protection is someone who is not yet 18 (eighteen) years old, including a child who is still in the womb.

    Then, the provisions of Article 42 of Law no.23 Year 2002 regulates that:

    (1) Every child gets protection to worship according to his/her religion.

    (2) Before the child can choose, the religion that the child embraces follows the religion of his/her parents.

    Then, in the elucidation of Article 42 paragraph (2) of Law 23/2002 it is stated that the child can determine the religion of his/her choice if the child is reasonable and responsible, and meets the requirements and procedures in accordance with the religious provisions he/she chooses, and the provisions of the valid Regulations.

    So, in this case the child you are about to deliver cannot be registered with the status of Christianity on your Family Card ("KK"), because the religion of his/her parents is Islam. Likewise, as long as the child is not "sensible" and "responsible" and because of his age the child has not been able to determine his/her choice, then according to the religious law that your child embraces must follow the religion of his/her parents, namely Islam.

    - Assumption 2: If you and your husband have converted from Islam to Christianity, but have not yet taken care of changing the status of religion on your KTP.

    There are a number of steps you must take if you have converted from Islam to Christianity, but have not yet taken care of changing the status of religion on your KTP and want your child to be registered with Christian status on your KK, including:

    1. Change the Status of Religion on KTP

    With the change in religion, both of you must change your KTP from a previously Muslim to Christian by filling in the form ... by attaching a baptism from the Church.

    2. Make a new Family Card ]


    ------------------------------------------------------


    https://www.hukumonline.com/klinik/d...telah-menikah/ (How to take care of KTP/KK if you change your religion after marriage)
    Last edited by marcus; 30-03-20, 23:26.

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    • #3
      Maybe another solution could be through asking to omit the religion in the KTP , but it may be difficult to get such a KTP , although it seems possible (see link below) .


      From https://www.kompasiana.com/rum/56602...sebuah-pilihan , Dec 2015 (KTP Without Religion, A Choice!)

      Comment


      • #4
        So basically I need to get something other than religion X on the family card.  Maybe Hinduism or Buddhism, which are among the recognized religions in Indonesia and have a long tradition in both Indonesia (my wife) and also in the form of Aryan paganism in the West (me).  The laws you mention makes it seem that no religion is put onto the birth certificate.  The main issue is protecting the kid from genital mutilation as is practiced by religion X, and allowing a personal identity of religion X to form in the child's mind.  Going back to the West is an option for us, but I have a pretty okay career here, and with the SJW menace back home, that seems almost more dangerous!

        Comment


        • #5
          From https://tirto.id/hukum-khitan-peremp...aturannya-eeNy
          Tirto.id
          Title : Hukum Khitan Perempuan dalam Islam dan Aturannya (Female Circumcision Law in Islam and its Rules)
          By Beni Jo - 22 Juli 2019

          ["Khitan" (marcus' note : circumcision in men) is a teaching that has been carried out, especially since the time of the Prophet Ibrahim. In the Islamic tradition, jumhur ulama are of the opinion that circumcision is mandatory for men. However, there are differences of opinion regarding circumcision for women.

          Circumcision is part of purification. It was narrated by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet Muhammad said, "There are five things included in fitrah (nature), namely khitan (circumcision for men), shaving the hair that grows around the genitals, trimming the mustache, cutting the nails, and pulling underarm hair." (H.R. Bukhari, Muslim, and Ahmad). While in another narration, the Prophet Muhammad said, "Circumcision is the sunna (the Apostle's decree) for men and makrumah (glory) for women" (H.R. Ahmad) Related to the circumcision law for women, some scholars disagree. Some say obligatory, sunna, or mubah. Ulema of the Syafi'iyah School believes that circumcision is mandatory for both men and women. The Hanabilah School and some Malikiyah also hold the same opinion. However, Imam Ahmad believes that circumcision is mandatory for men, and the virtue for women.

          Meanwhile WHO classifies Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) into four types. In its statement, WHO said, "FGM has no health benefits, and is harmful in many ways. The action is in the form of eliminating and damaging the healthy and normal female genital tissue, and disrupting the natural functions of the bodies of women and girls."

          In the Minister of Health Regulation (Permenkes) of the Republic of Indonesia Number 1636 / Menkes / Per / XI / 2010 concerning Sunat Perempuan / Female Circumcision, it is stated that female circumcision is the act of scratching the skin that covers the front of the clitoris, without injuring the clitoris. This circumcision is not the same as FGM. The only health workers who can provide female circumcision services are doctors, midwives, and nurses who have a medical license, or work permit. In addition, female circumcision cannot be performed on women who are suffering from external genital infections or general infections. The Permenkes above has been revoked with the advent of Permenkes No. 6 of 2014 which states that the Permenkes was declared invalid.

          In the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) Fatwa on May 7, 2008 concerning the Law on the Prohibition of Circumcision Against Women, it is stated that khitan / circumcision for men and women is the rules and symbols of Islam. Therefore, khitan perempuan / female circumcision is makrumah, one of the recommended forms of worship. In the fatwa, also included the standard circumcision of women, which is as follows : Khitan perempuan / Female circumcision is done simply by removing the membrane (jaldah / colum / praeputium) that covers the clitoris. Khitan perempuan / Circumcision of women should not be excessive, such as cutting or injuring the clitoris (incision and excision) that causes dlarar. In the Decree of the 32nd Nahdatul Ulama Conference (NU) Number IV / MNU-32 / III / 2010, it was stated that the prohibition of circumcision for women has no shar'i proposition. In this case, circumcision is done by removing part of the epidermis that covers the clitoris, not removing it. The verdict was related to the history of Umm mu Athiyah al-Anshariyah, about a woman who wanted to circumcise Madinah. The Prophet said, "Do not cut it off, because really it is more beneficial for women and more pleasing to the husband (HR Abu Dawud.)"

          Secretary of the Indonesian Ulema Council Fatwa Council, Fuad Thohari on April 26, 2018, said the procedures or circumcision limits on women are important because practices in society can be different. "On the one hand we fully support the circumcision of women because it is in accordance with the nature of Islam. But, here we are not turning a blind eye to the deviations of practices that pose a danger, "Fuad was quoted as saying]
          Last edited by marcus; 31-03-20, 10:13.

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          • #6
            Why did it seem OK to lie about something important as religion because it makes a few things a little easier. It seems that being honest in the first place would have been more advantageous in the long run. Don't claim to be something you are not, especially when you seem to despise that thing so much. When you break it down, your post says "I lied about something important to make my life easier and now it has come to bite me in the rear. What new lies do I need to tell to cover up my previous lies? How can I worm my way out of the situation that I created?"

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
              (1) Why did it seem OK to lie about something important as religion ...

              (2) ... specially when you seem to despise that thing so much ...
              (1) Religion may be important to you but not everybody thinks like you . See this : (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import...ion_by_country - Importance of religion by country)
              % of people who think religion is not important :
              Estonia : 78% , Sweden : 82% , Denmark : 80% , Norway : 78% , Czech Republic : 75% , Japan : 75% , Hong Kong : 74% , United Kingdom : 73% , Finland : 70% , Vietnam : 69% , France : 69% , Australia : 68% , The Netherlands : 67% , New Zealand : 66% , Belgium : 58% , Cuba : 64% , Bulgaria : 62% , ......

              (2) To me it seems you look like a person who get mad too easily . Let's not think we know others by just reading few words they write . And by the way , if you read carefully , OP is concerned about Female Circumcision (a controversial subject even between Muslims) , not much about the religion .
              Last edited by marcus; 01-04-20, 08:58.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by marcus View Post

                (1) Religion may be important to you but not everybody thinks like you . See this : (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import...ion_by_country - Importance of religion by country)
                % of people who think religion is not important :
                Estonia : 78% , Sweden : 82% , Denmark : 80% , Norway : 78% , Czech Republic : 75% , Japan : 75% , Hong Kong : 74% , United Kingdom : 73% , Finland : 70% , Vietnam : 69% , France : 69% , Australia : 68% , The Netherlands : 67% , New Zealand : 66% , Belgium : 58% , Cuba : 64% , Bulgaria : 62% , ......

                (2) To me it seems you looks like a person who gets mad too easily . Lets not think we know others by just reading few words they write . And by the way , if you read carefully , OP is concerned about Female Circumcision (a controversial subject even between Muslims) , not much about the religion .
                I'm not mad at anyone. All I stated are facts. Each person is responsible for their own actions. All I was saying is that we have to be responsible for those actions. If religion isn't important enough to matter the first time around, why be concerned about a piece of paper now? I don't expect my opinion to be popular but it is what it is. Being honest is always the best policy, I'm sorry if you don't agree.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
                  (a) ... All I stated are facts ...

                  (b) All I was saying is that we have to be responsible for those actions.

                  (c) If religion isn't important enough to matter the first time around, why be concerned about a piece of paper now? ...

                  (d) Being honest is always the best policy, I'm sorry if you don't agree.

                  (a) I desagree . In my view the only probable fact that you stated was that OP probably lied in the marriage process . All the other things you said were only your personal opinion .
                  By the way when people marry and say they "will be together for better or worse" or similar , many (almost 50% in some countries) are lying too , right ?

                  (b) If somebody wants to resume your posts in few words , probably he/she would say that you are looking for a fight .

                  (c) You insist in being unfriendly . As I said before , the OP's main concern is about Female Circumcision (an important subject , in my view) .
                  My point in saying that some people don't consider religion important is to minimize the lie fact . As you may know , everybody lies about something not important .

                  (d) Not necessarily , in my view . I think there are few cases when being honest is not the best policy (for example : one considers a person as non-atractive , but if asked by this person I think it is better not to be honest and say he/she is not atractive) .
                  Last edited by marcus; 01-04-20, 09:49.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by marcus View Post


                    (a) I desagree . In my view the only probable fact that you stated was that OP probably lied in the marriage process . All the other things you said were only your personal opinion .
                    By the way when people marry and say they "will be together for better or worse" or similar , many (almost 50% in some countries) are lying too , right ?

                    (b) If somebody wants to resume your posts in few words , probably he/she would say that you are looking for a fight .

                    (c) You insist in being unfriendly . As I said before , the OP's main concern is about Female Circumcision (an important subject , in my view) .
                    My point in saying that some people don't consider religion important is to minimize the lie fact . As you may know , everybody lies about something not important .

                    (d) Not necessarily , in my view . I think there are few cases when being honest is not the best policy (for example : one considers a person as non-atractive , but if asked by this person I think it is better not to be honest and say he/she is not atractive) .
                    If anyone is being unfriendly it is you. You are the one who keeps chiming in, the OP has said nothing. Who is the one looking for a fight? As for your section (c) Female Circumcision is and important subject but again wouldn't be a problem if the truth had been told originally and still is not an actual problem because the mother and father make those decisions. A group of people are not going to force you into doing anything. I'm not here to hijack the thread or get off topic. My advice to the OP about this matter or any matter is, be honest with yourselves and others. You might be surprised at the lack of problems you make for yourself.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hawk1024 View Post
                      (I) ... You are the one who keeps chiming in, the OP has said nothing.

                      (II) Who is the one looking for a fight? ...

                      (I) This is a public Forum where everybody is invited to chime in .

                      From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chime in , Definition of chime in : "to break into a conversation or discussion especially to express an opinion" , ...


                      (II) Not me .

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