No IMTA For Director Shareholder

[poisons77]

I'm trying to make the kitas online. We have a PMA in Indonesia and my wife is one of the directors. We requested RPTKA and imta, online, but they refused to issue then as from this year director and komisaris don't need anymore imta, good news.

But for kitas online is a challenge.
I need a working visa, as if is true my wife is the director, is also true she has to work as director and will get a salary for it.

So applying for kitas online we choose as jenis visa
Persetujuan visa tinggal terbatas --> bekerja
and then we choose
Audit, quality control, inspeksi pada cabang perusahaan

They refused the application with this reason:
" harap merevisi isi surat permohonan sesuai dengan maksud dan tujuan orang asing datang ke indonesian dan memilih index yang sesuai dengan maksud dan tujuan orang asing "

So the index (312) is wrong?

I asked by email and this is the answer:
" surat permohonan yang Saudara lampirkan berisi keperluan untuk perpanjangan visa Kunjungan dan tidak ada Kops surat Perusahaan. Mohon revisi surat permohonan And asesuai yang terlampir pada alasan penolakan dari petugas kami "

So is the surat permohonan to be wrong? Unfortunately my agent here doesn't know what to do and I would really like to do it online.

Thanks

[marcus]

(1) ... from this year director and komisaris don't need anymore imta, good news.

(2) Audit, quality control, inspeksi pada cabang perusahaan

They refused the application with this reason:
" harap merevisi isi surat permohonan sesuai dengan maksud dan tujuan orang asing datang ke indonesian dan memilih index yang sesuai dengan maksud dan tujuan orang asing " (please revise the contents of the application in accordance with the intent and purpose of the foreigner coming to Indonesia and choosing an index that matches the intent and purpose)
(3) So the index (312) is wrong?

I asked .. and this is the answer:
" surat permohonan yang Saudara lampirkan berisi keperluan untuk perpanjangan visa Kunjungan dan tidak ada Kops surat Perusahaan. Mohon revisi surat permohonan And asesuai yang terlampir pada alasan penolakan dari petugas kami " (the application letter that you enclosed contains the need for extend the Visit visa and there is no Company Letter. Please revise the application letter that is the reason for the refusal from our officer)

(4) So is the surat permohonan to be wrong? ...

First let me say that I never got an IMTA or a Visa online , but I did read the rules so let me guess what are the problem(s) .

(1) Did Manpower Office tell you that ?

As far as I know , one of the few changes that ocurred this year is that shareholders acting as Director or "Komisaris" do not require RPTKA (Article 10 of PerPres no.20 , year 2018) . I guess the IMTA is still required for Directors/Komisaris , according to PerMen no.16 , year 2015 (Article 35) , except if they are not to reside in Indonesia (Article 37 of PerMen no.35 , year 2015) .

(2) I guess this kind of work cannot be done by a Director .

This kind of work is one of the 8 kinds specified for a Temporary IMTA of up to only 1 month , not extendable (Article 46 of PerMen no.16 , year 2015) .

(3) It is correct .

(4) It seems so . But I don't understand why they also mention "... the need to extend the Visit Visa ..."

[poisons77]

Dear Marcus, thanks for your answer.
(1) I applied for online RPTKA and IMTA at http://tka-online.kemnaker.go.id
they just refused to issue neither an RPTKA the official answer is:
Di Perpres 20 tahun 2018 Direktur/Komisaris pemegang saham tidak wajib mempunyai RPTKA dan IMTA

(2) what should be the right work for a director?
If I choose
Persetujuan visa tinggal terbatas
as jenis visa and
bekerja
as masuk kedatangan, the list from what I can choose is this:
- audit, quality control/inspeksi pada cabang perusahaan
- calon TKA dalam Uci coba
- bekerja di atas kapal, alat apung atau instalasi di wilayah perairan
- pengawasan kualitas barang atau produksi
- rohaniawan
- olahraga profesional
- pekerjaan non permanen dalam konstruksi
- pembuatan film komersial
- melayani purnajual
- tenaga ahli
- profesi menerima bayaran
- memangme dan mereparasi mesin
- pengobatan
- pertunjukan kesenian, music dan olahraga

(3) ok thanks

(4) maybe they just want it with the company paper? I don't know, my agent didn'td know, the local immigration doesn't know and by email the main office doesn't answer

[marcus]

(1)... the official answer is:
Di Perpres 20 tahun 2018 Direktur/Komisaris pemegang saham tidak wajib mempunyai RPTKA dan IMTA

(2) what should be the right work for a director?

(4) maybe they just want it with the company paper?

(5) ... the local immigration doesn't know

(6) and by email the main office doesn't answer

(1) Ok if they say so , because that PerPres does not mention IMTA anywhere (or at least I didn't see it) .

(2) I would guess : "profesi menerima bayaran" (profession receiving payment)

If this option doesn't fit too , I suggest you to change the Visa index to no.313 (1 year) or 314 (2 years) , if possible . According to an old Embassy information , these indexes are for "non-working purposes" (for "Foreign Direct Investors") . Who knows that if they are not requesting RPTKA & IMTA it is maybe because they are not considering Directors as "usual workers" ?

By the way , that PerPres/Article 21 also stated that Work KITAS (and Visa too ?) may be for up to 2 years (it was limited to 1 year before) .

(4) I think that company letters must be in special papers with the company logo , company permit(s)/address/fone no./...

(5) Maybe you didn't ask the right officer ?

(6) Unfortunetely government and companies in general seem to not use email much . I hope that very soon they start informing a Whatsapp number because if so they would probably answer .

[poisons77]

(1) yes, they wrote by Whatsapp. and anyway they cannot release IMTA if no RPTKA, right?

(2) Ok, I'll do it nd update you. This is also valid if sometimes the director has to teach the staff and make her hands "dirty"?
It was supposed the 312 was for 1 year, I;m I wrong? I'll change to working kitas 313, but don't know what to choose, will make some trials tomorrow morning with the pull down menus

(4) I'll try to send with company heading paper and will update you on the result

Thanks for your answers!

[marcus]

(1) ... anyway they cannot release IMTA if no RPTKA, right?

(2) ... This is also valid if sometimes the director has to teach the staff and make her hands "dirty"?

(2a) It was supposed the 312 was for 1 year, I;m I wrong?

(2b) I'll change to working kitas 313, ...

(1) I am not sure about that . But from the official Manpower answer it is very clear to me that both are not required for your case .

(2) I guess Manpower has a limit for that because recently I heard a foreigner was deported for been doing a low skilled work with an IMTA for a high work position . I imagine that now with this Director/similar job position being exempted of IMTA , employers will try this "door" to hire non-eligible foreigner workers .

(2a) Yes , all Work Visa before that PerPres were for one year period . The 2 years Limited Stay Visa/KITAS alread existed before but I guess they were only issued for researchers (index 316) and for investors (index 314) . I understand that the PerPres now allow index 312 to be 2 years too .

(2b) Remember that I said that the index 313 is for 1 year non-working Visa .

[poisons77]

Unfortunately the visa 312 request was rejected, as
Harap melampirkan scan IMTA yang jelas sesuai nama pemohon

So the visa process cannot continue as they need imta.
imta will not be released as it's not needed for directors. I also asked PPTKA if no imta is needed also in the case the director as to "dirt his hands" with manual work and the answer is the same: no imta needed. So I'm stucked for the visa.

I've asked to the visa office by email if they can guarantee that for a director that is effectively working in the company we can ask a non working visa (as they don't release the 312 working visa) without having problems later, but till now no answer.

[marcus]

(a) Unfortunately the visa 312 request was rejected, as
Harap melampirkan scan IMTA yang jelas sesuai nama pemohon (Please attach a clear IMTA scan according to the applicant's name)

(b) I also asked PPTKA
(b1) if no imta is needed also in the case the director as to "dirt his hands" with manual work and the answer is the same: no imta needed ...

(c) I've asked to the visa office by email if they can guarantee that for a director that is effectively working in the company we can ask a non working visa (as they don't release the 312 working visa) without having problems later, but till now no answer.

(a) It may be because Immigration didn't update the visa online software .
Or also because Immigration is not aware that that PerPres (Regulation) really states an IMTA is not required for Directors . By the way I think that it is a little strange that a Presidential Regulation changes what is (implicit) required by the Work Law (see below) . As I understand , the Law should be revised first .

(b) Did you ask through "[email protected]" , by phone , or personally at the "Directorate of Foreign Workers Use Control" ?
(b1) If by email , could you copy/paste the exact wording you used in the question ? If by phone or talking , it was in English or Indonesian ?

(c) I would also ask if Visa 312 is really not applicable for Directors [due to the doubts I mentioned in (a) above] .


-----------------------------------------


Indonesian Work Law (UU no.13 , year 2003)
CHAPTER VIII - EMPLOYMENT OF FOREIGN WORKER
ARTICLE 42
(1) Every employer that employs foreign worker is under an obligation to obtain written permission from Minister.

[poisons77]

a) it makes sense what you write. The law should be revised first, but in the meantime I'm stucked. I'm going out of the country at the end of the month and coming back with a touristic visa, waiting for the working visa to be ready

b) it was by WhatsApp, the number are on the main site top-right corner
http://tka-online.kemnaker.go.id

b1) here's the WA chat:
[11/8, 16:00] me: Hallo, anda jawaban:
Berdasarkan Permenaker No. 10 Th 2018, pasal 10b. TKA sbg Direksi/Komisaris pemegang saham tidak wajib memiliki RPTKA
Tapi kami perlu IMTA untuk direktur, tetapi di situs web anda rptka diperlukan untuk meminta imta
Apa request imta kalau tidak ada rptka?
[13/8, 09:41] Direktorat PPTKA: Untuk direktur/komisaris pemegang saham tidak perlu membuat RPTKA & IMTA.
[13/8, 14:49] me: Direktur produksi harus mengajar staf tentang membuat roti, dan kadang-kadang tangannya kotor tepung. Agen imigrasi di sini meminta kami untuk memiliki IMTA untuk direktur juga, karena ia tidak dapat mengotori tangannya. Sama untuk direktur pemasaran, bisakah dia bekerja di kantor tanpa imta? Apa yang harus kita katakan saat mereka datang?
[14/8, 12:48] me: Direktur adalah orang asing
[14/8, 12:53] Direktorat PPTKA: Apabila dia pemegang saham silahkan ajukan rekomendasi izin tinggal ke bkpm (tidak perlu membuat imta rptka)
[14/8, 12:59] me: Ya, tapi agen imigrasi disini bicara direktur tidak bisa tangannya kotor tepung. Untuk kerja dengan tepung dia perlu IMTA. Apakah itu benar?
[14/8, 13:52] Direktorat PPTKA: Yang diminta Imigrasi apakah IMTA dia sebagai Direktur atau IMTA dia sebagai pengolah tepung/pembuat roti?
[14/8, 14:01] me: mereka mengatakan bahwa direktur tidak dapat bekerja secara fisik di toko, membuat roti secara fisik, bahkan jika mengajar kepada staf bagaimana melakukannya. Mereka mengatakan bahwa direktur, bahkan jika pemegang saham, perlu imta untuk bekerja secara fisik di toko
[14/8, 14:10] Direktorat PPTKA: Silahkan konfirmasi ke imigrasi mengenai ini. Karena di Perpres 20 tahun 2018 Direktur/Komisaris pemegang saham tidak wajib mempunyai RPTKA dan IMTA
[14/8, 14:11] me: Ok, terima kasih banyak

c) I asked also this by email, to
[email protected]
this is the email transcript:
[20/9, 11:49] me, Pagi
mengenai No. Permohonan xxxxxx, tidak dapat kalian setujui dengan alasan sebagai berikut:
Harap melampirkan scan IMTA yang jelas sesuai nama pemohon
tetapi kami sudah meminta Direktorat PPTKA untuk menerbitk an imta dan mereka menolak karena tidak diperlukan untuk direktur/komisaris:
Karena di Perpres 20 tahun 2018 Direktur/Komisaris pemegang saham tidak wajib mempunyai RPTKA dan IMTA
Terus, bisakah anda melanjutkan permintaan itu?
[20/9, 15:36] Visa. Selamat siang, menurut database kami Saudara mengajukan Visa 312 (bekerja) sehingga harus melampirkan IMTA sebagai persyaratan. Jadi sebaiknya mengajukan VIsa Penanam MOda ( Index 313 atau Index 314)
Demikian kami sampaikan, terima kasih.
Hormat kami,
Admin
[20/9, 17:52] me Selamat sore,
Kami pernah bertanya beberapa kali kepada Direktorat Jenderal PPTKA, dan mereka mengatakan bahwa seorang direktur sebuah perusahaan itu tidak memerlukan IMTA, bahkan jika direktur harus bekerja di perusahaan, meskipun tangannya ikut kotor dengan tepung saat mendampingi dan mengajari karyawannya membuat roti. Mereka dengan jelas menyatakan bahwa Direktur tetap tidak membutuhkan IMTA. bahkan jika dia bekerja di perusahaan, melampirkan screenshot dari percakapan. Bisakah Anda mengkonfirmasi kami dapat meminta indeks visa 313 atau 314 bahkan jika kadang-kadang dia akan bekerja sama dengan staf di lini produksi?
Hormat kami

And from that no answer

[marcus]

Poisons77 , from your communications with both PPTKA/Manpower and Immigration , I guess that a shareholder Director is considered as just an investor .

What worries me is that , although PPTKA seems to allow such a Director to do "lower level" work , Immigration doesn't think the same .

So I ask you , does your wife really need to be a Director now ? Or could she be a Director and a hired foreign worker (with an IMTA) simultaneously ?
Because I think that it should be safer now : if she gets an 1 year IMTA as an work expert (would require 5 years of work experience) , or if she gets a shorter Temporary IMTA as an Advisor/similar , for training the staff .
Later , after this initial training necessity , she could request the 1 or 2 year Visa 313 or 314 for a shareholder Director .

Otherwise if she gets now a shareholder/investor Visa (313 or 314) and Immigration catches her doing "low level" work , there may be a problem (unless you get a document from Manpower/PPTKA stating that in their view , she could do the "lower level" work without an IMTA , with the shareholder/investor Visa) .

[poisons77]

Thanks Marcus for your answer, I got what you mean and I agree. I'll go on Monday to the local immigration to ask this, and I'll update later.

Thanks

[marcus]

Going further on what I said about you wife being a Director + a hired employee with an IMTA/Visa 312 :

Item (1) of Article 41 of PerMen no.16 , year 2015 states : "Employers of foreign workers are prohibited from employing foreign workers in more than 1 (one) position in the same company."

I suppose that your wife is already in your company's documents as one of the Directors , so I think it would be good if you keep it that way , right ?
So maybe PPTKA can accept her name being kept as Director , but temporarily licensed or similar , so she would not receive 2 salaries . Or couldn't PPTKA accept that her position as a Director is as one of the owners , not as an employee ?

[marcus]

And about the problem with Immigration for doing "low level" work as a shareholder Director :

Immigration is very restrict about what the foreigner does with a Visa/KITAS/Stay Permit (see Law below) .

Indonesian Immigration Law (UU no.6 (Law) , year 2011)

Article 122
Shall be punished with imprisonment of five (5) years and fined at most Rp500.000.000, 00 (five hundred million rupiah):

a. any foreigner who deliberately misuse or engage in activities not in accordance with the intent and purpose of the Visa/Stay Permit given to him/her;

b. any person who ordered or provide opportunity for the foreigner to misuse or engage in activities inconsistent with intent or purpose of the Visa/Stay Permit given to him/her.

[willie.chandra1487]

Hello...

anyone applying VITAS for director now?

I'm just applying for one of our director at visaonline.imigrasi.go.id/online and i dont know why the progress stuck.

it was told that every step will take 1 working day but my application stuck at 4th step for 5 working day and now it was on the 5th step (PERSETUJUAN) and had been stuck for 2 days.

I'm not stay at Jakarta so it is a bit confusing for me if i have to go to immigration office directly.

anyone facing the same problems with me?

[marcus]

... now it was on the 5th step (PERSETUJUAN) and had been stuck for 2 days...

Well , you already did the process once before in last January , so I guess you just need to be patient . Remember that people are fasting now (Muslim's holy month of Ramadan , which started last Monday) , so the process take a longer time . Besides that maybe Immigration was/still is updating the new fees in its system .

By the way , do you know that the fee that you paid in January (Rp100'000) is now Rp200'000 ?