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  • #16
    Originally posted by ghost0906 View Post
    art. 62 of UU6-2011 talking about how to terminate an ITAP not talking about extension of ITAS
    (Pasal 62 Izin Tinggal Tetap dapat berakhir karena pemegang Izin Tinggal Tetap
    Permanent Stay Permit may be terminated due to the holder of Permanent Stay Permit:
    Article 62 covers numerous reasons why a Kitap may be terminated. According to your own post # 4 isn't it possible you were in violation of Art 62 in the past and therefore had your Kitap revoked.....and now you are back to applying for an annual Kitas?

    That still doesn't explain why Immigration need you to leave the country after each and every issue of Kitas so that's why I suggested yours may be a special case...you need your agent to advise you personally as that isn't normal.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Davita View Post

      Article 62 covers numerous reasons why a Kitap may be terminated. According to your own post # 4 isn't it possible you were in violation of Art 62 in the past and therefore had your Kitap revoked.....and now you are back to applying for an annual Kitas?

      That still doesn't explain why Immigration need you to leave the country after each and every issue of Kitas so that's why I suggested yours may be a special case...you need your agent to advise you personally as that isn't normal.

      I can only say that this doesn't make sense and I already asked my agent to check again what's going on.
      In the practice I'm new to these new procedures because I already went through the entire process already with my 18years stay and twice KITAP extentions. I can say there wasn't any violation of art 62

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ghost0906 View Post
        Was my Agent/Sponsor to tell me that, ... As you well know, almost every immigration office in Indonesia implements local variations ...

        Yes you may find small variations from one Kantor Imigrasi to another , but in other words what your agent is telling you is that Immigration does not do KITAS extensions anymore , and this is a very big thing . As I said , I did extended my Retirement KITAS less than 4 months ago , the Regulation I mentioned above is from 2013 , there is another Regulation (PerMen no.27 , year 2014) also covering KITAS extension , so it is almost impossible that I am missing a new regulation issued in last Sept/Okt/Nov/Dez with such a big change .

        Another fact , last 29 September Immigration started the "Izin Tinggal Online" system . So if Immigration was to issue the change your agent told you , would Immigration start this new online system which includes KITAS extension ?
        By the way , if you go to https://izintinggal.imigrasi.go.id/I...it.xhtml?tab=1 , type your passport an NIORA numbers there and click "Lanjutkan" , so you can see that your agent could request your KITAS extension there . Check how Rajtikka is doing a similar process at http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...as-from-sosbud
        Last edited by marcus; 01-01-18, 01:03.

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        • #19
          That's right Marcus. In fact the first thing I replied to him when he told me that was that it didn't make any sense but since he replied that was the procedure... I gave it for granted.
          Now I asked him to apply directly online first also because our ITAS is Electronic one, more then ask to the Immigration Office.
          I'lll keep you posted

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          • #20
            Despite everything, it seems to me that really ITAS is made (intentionally in my opinion) more difficult.
            For the renewal of the ITAS I was asked again for an impressive number of documents, many of which already when I firstly requested my yearly ITAS, had a deadline of 5 years.
            - CV has certainly not expired but I have been asked again.
            - the insurance coverage expires in 2022 but has been requested again.
            - the declaration of the personnel working at my residence including personal declaration and KTP.
            - bank statement.
            - last but not least: the DOMISILI by KEPALA DESA was replaced by a declaration to be obtained from POLRES which then must be elaborated by BUPATI and issued a SKTT(Surat keterangan tempat tinggal) pseudo KTP for foreigners.
            All this, only for the annual extension of the ITAS.

            I continue to see a hardening of the procedure with unnecessary repetitions that naturally cost money and waste time because the agent / sponsor who prepares the ITAS renewl ask for the physical presence of the subject requested by POLRES and BUPATI.
            Do you know if all this is actually required for every extension of the ITAS?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ghost0906 View Post
              (1) Despite everything, it seems to me that really ITAS is made (intentionally in my opinion) more difficult.
              For the renewal of the ITAS I was asked again for an impressive number of documents, ... Do you know if all this is actually required for every extension of the ITAS?

              (2) - last but not least: the DOMISILI by KEPALA DESA was replaced by a declaration to be obtained from POLRES which then must be elaborated by BUPATI and issued a SKTT(Surat keterangan tempat tinggal) pseudo KTP for foreigners ...

              (1) So you don't need to leave Indonesia and get a new Visa like you told us in your first post (in this thread) , right ?

              I don't understand why (after all the many KITAS you got already) you are complaining about presenting all the same required documents again now , when this has been the normal procedure for decades .
              I dealt (myself) with the Indonesian Immigration for more than 12 years , and repetition is the "name of the game" .

              (2) No surprise to me . All these documents : the Surat Domisili , the Police's STM/Surat Tanda Melapor , and the Catatan Sipil's SKTT , are/were normally required , one way or another . The SKTT is required by Law , although I guess many people still don't know that and don't miss it as for most of us it is an useless document . And to get the SKTT (at least here in Bandung) I need to present a Surat Domisili and a STM . So if Immigration replaces a Surat Domisili by a SKTT , it is not really a big change .
              Last edited by marcus; 12-01-18, 19:14.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by marcus View Post


                (1) So you don't need to leave Indonesia and get a new Visa like you told us in your first post (in this thread) , right ?

                I don't understand why (after all the many KITAS you got already) you are complaining about presenting all the same required documents again now , when this has been the normal procedure for decades .
                I dealt (myself) with the Indonesian Immigration for more than 12 years , and repetition is the "name of the game" .

                (2) No surprise to me . All these documents : the Surat Domisili , the Police's STM/Surat Tanda Melapor , and the Catatan Sipil's SKTT , are/were normally required , one way or another . The SKTT is required by Law , although I guess many people still don't know that and don't miss it as for most of us it is an useless document . And to get the SKTT (at least here in Bandung) I need to present a Surat Domisili and a STM . So if Immigration replaces a Surat Domisili by a SKTT , it is not really a big change .
                Sorry Marcus, you missed the fact that the last decades I had a KITAP and I did NOTHING other then show up at Immigration to sign the KITAP (10years ago and 5years ago).
                Last year, applying for the new ITAS, I produced again all documents and no complaint, since this was a new start from zero.

                Now, with the yearly renewal of ITAS I am allowed not to leave the country to do it... but I'm required to submit all docs again even those that are still valid like CV, Insurance, housing, staff (SURAT PERNYATAAN PENGGUNAAN PRAMUWISMA)..
                ... you said: "if Immigration replaces a Surat Domisili by a SKTT".... it was not replaced... you need Domicili and with that, been interviewed by POLRES Intelligentia and then finally get SKTT from Bupati office. (we did yesterday, so this is confirmed)

                It's true, I don't have to leave Indonesia... because when my agent brought my protest of having to leave the country for renewal, then the immigration has niche (skipped) on the matter.

                My point is that despite the declaration of wanting to simplify the immigration procedures, ( this is the reason of the IMIGRASI ONLINE ), in practice the bureaucracy is brought to the maximum extent.
                My impression is that, as my sponsor is relatively new to this experience with retirement permits, he is boycotted and all made more difficult and they give personal interpretations of the regulations, partly because I have made it clear beyond any doubt that I do not want to pay bribes/tip of any nature.
                Yesterday they had asked to bring, the original KTP of my staff, in vision while a copy of it is widely used for all official acts that require the KTP

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by ghost0906 View Post
                  (a) Sorry Marcus, you missed the fact that the last decades I had a KITAP and I did NOTHING other then show up at Immigration to sign the KITAP ...

                  (b) ... wanting to simplify the immigration procedures, ( this is the reason of the IMIGRASI ONLINE ) ...

                  (c) My impression is that, as my sponsor is relatively new to this experience ... , he is boycotted ...
                  Yesterday they had asked to bring, the original KTP of my staff, ...
                  (a) It is not that I missed , it is more because you forgot that before your first KITAP you had many KITAS (nobody can get a Retirement KITAP without having some Retirement KITAS before) .

                  Anyway , repetition is applicable to every extension process : Visit Visa extension , KITAS extension , KITAP extension , Re-entry Permit extension (you had a KITAP extension too , right ?) . Even fingerprints are done again at every extension .

                  (b) Yes , this recent idea of online request is simplifying a little , but I don't believe that the number of the documents required will decrease .

                  (c) Well , now you showed something unusual . But it is not a big thing , is it ? (by the way , could you tell us how much you are paying to the agent for this KITAS extension ?) .

                  Note : In my city , there is no interview to get the Police's STM (I already got it many times myself , now my retirement agent get it to me - included in the KITAS package price)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by marcus View Post

                    (a) It is not that I missed , it is more because you forgot that before your first KITAP you had many KITAS (nobody can get a Retirement KITAP without having some Retirement KITAS before) .

                    Anyway , repetition is applicable to every extension process : Visit Visa extension , KITAS extension , KITAP extension , Re-entry Permit extension (you had a KITAP extension too , right ?) . Even fingerprints are done again at every extension .

                    (b) Yes , this recent idea of online request is simplifying a little , but I don't believe that the number of the documents required will decrease .

                    (c) Well , now you showed something unusual . But it is not a big thing , is it ? (by the way , could you tell us how much you are paying to the agent for this KITAS extension ?) .

                    Note : In my city , there is no interview to get the Police's STM (I already got it many times myself , now my retirement agent get it to me - included in the KITAS package price)
                    (a) I had my KITAS more then 10 years ago and was before the 2011 law and much easier
                    (b) I'm not sure ONLINE process is only simplifying a little, because once documents are stored on the computer, it's easy to forward them again and again... but it will never happen that an immigration officer will harass the person filing the document with crazy request or threat or bribe.
                    I believe is the only way to have a reliable and univocal process in every immigration office.
                    Even in this instance, the office was pushing to have the renewal processed manually and not online.... which I believe is selfexplanatory

                    (c) On top of fee below I only pay Rp 100,000 for his job.
                    4. Izin Tinggal Terbatas Non Elektronik Masa Berlaku Paling Lama 1 (satu) tahun Per Orang Rp. 800.000,00
                    5. Izin Tinggal Terbatas Elektronik Masa Berlaku Paling Lama 1 (satu) tahun Per Orang Rp. 1.000.000,00
                    6. Izin Tinggal Terbatas Non Elektronik Masa Berlaku Paling Lama 2 (dua) tahun Per Orang Rp. 1.400.000,00
                    7. Izin Tinggal Terbatas Elektronik Masa Berlaku Paling Lama 2 (dua) tahun Per Orang Rp. 1.600.000,00

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by marcus View Post


                      Note : In my city , there is no interview to get the Police's STM (I already got it many times myself , now my retirement agent get it to me - included in the KITAS package price)
                      I'm not sure we are talking about the same document.
                      My agent said the card that will be issued by a specific Bupati office it's a kinda KTP for foreigners. The POLRES paper issued after the interview by INTEL was a permission for the Bupati to issue it.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ghost0906 View Post
                        (a) I had my KITAS more then 10 years ago and was before the 2011 law and much easier

                        (b) ... ONLINE process ... it will never happen that an immigration officer will harass the person filing the document with crazy request or threat or bribe ...

                        (c) On top of fee below I only pay Rp 100,000 for his job.

                        (d) ... My agent said the card that will be issued by a specific Bupati office it's a kinda KTP for foreigners.

                        (e) I'm not sure we are talking about the same document ... The POLRES paper issued after the interview by INTEL was a permission for the Bupati to issue it.

                        (a) I am dealing with Immigration (myself) since year 2000 , and I can tell you that both the Regulations and the practical bureaucracy didn't change much . The Retirement Visa/KITAS Regulation before 2013 was the KEPUTUSAN DIREKTUR JENDERAl IMIGRASI NOMOR 17.492-UM.01.10 Tahun/Year 2002 , and now it is the PP no.31 , year 2013 , and there is no relevant change between the 2 .
                        If there was a difference for you it was due to different agent , but what your Kantor Imigrasi is asking you now , as far as you have told us , is the usual list of documents .

                        (b) Now I need to defend the Immigration officers . First , immigration officers are always changing , so I already dealt with more than 30 different ones , which can corroborate my following statements as having a broader significance . So from 2000 until 2002 , then from 2004 until 2015 , I handled myself more than 60 Social Cultural Visa extensions , 3 KITAS , and one KITAP , and in all these processes I was asked for bribe only once , and also only once I got a crazy request (so very uncommon) .
                        I guess that when the foreigner has no idea of the rule , he/she is more prone to be a victim , not like me that I always knew what to do and when I came to the officer , it was to present all the required documents correctly .

                        (c) Well , this is absurdly cheap . Please tell in which city you live , so interested people can ask you about your agent . I pay Rp7 million , including all official fees , and the Police's STM but I still need to get the SKTT myself .
                        Note : you forgot the fee for the Re-entry Permit

                        (d) Correct . This is the SKTT issued by the city's government office (in my city , it is the Kantor Catatan Sipil) .

                        (e) Well , if you don't tell us its name , we cannot be sure . As I said , I have been getting for many years the STM (Surat Tanda Melapor) . And I am not sure about what you mean by "The POLRES paper ... was a permission for the Bupati to issue it" . But if this is what you meant , be informed that Police POLRES and city's Bupati's office are independent government departments , so Bupati does not request a permission from POLRES to issue the SKTT , Bupati's office has its own authority to issue it .
                        So , in my city , Catatan Sipil requests a Police's STM , which is not a Permit but instead , it is just a proof that you were reported to the Police , in other words , the Police knows your identity , where you live , when your visa expires , ..
                        Last edited by marcus; 14-01-18, 20:15.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by marcus View Post

                          (d) Correct . This is the SKTT issued by the city's government office (in my city , it is the Kantor Catatan Sipil) .

                          ..
                          I was told Kantor Catatan Sipil is belonging Bupati. Sorry, I never go deeply in these burocratics processes

                          If you mean Police's STM is a credit card style, I used to have it too but I was told is no longer used and as far as SKTT is going to be a KTP for foreigner.
                          The letter I told you issued by POLRES is not a PERMIT BUT a kind of presentation/introducing letter a foreigner to Kantor Catatan Sipil to obtain SKTT and is performed as an interview by Police Intelligent.
                          re-entry visa as it was before is no longer separated from ITAS/ITAP. It comes together with it but regarding addition cost... I will let you know soon when we get ITAS extended and pay for it

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ghost0906 View Post
                            (I) I was told Kantor Catatan Sipil is belonging Bupati ...

                            (II) If you mean Police's STM is a credit card style, I used to have it too but I was told is no longer used ...

                            (III) The letter I told you issued by POLRES is not a PERMIT BUT a kind of presentation/introducing letter a foreigner to Kantor Catatan Sipil to obtain SKTT and is performed as an interview by Police Intelligent.

                            (IV) re-entry visa as it was before is no longer separated from ITAS/ITAP. It comes together with it but regarding addition cost ...

                            (I) As far as I understand , cities have Mayors . When an area is not a city , then there is a Bupati , so Bupati is similar to Mayor . I don't know if an area headed by a Bupati also has a Kantor Catatan Sipil .

                            (II) The STM I know is a simple A4 document (like a letter) . The one like a credit card was the SKLD , and yes , it is no longer required . The STM is no longer required too , but seems that some government offices still don't know that .

                            (III) Isn't there a name on it ?

                            (IV) It is not a Re-entry Visa , but instead a Re-entry Permit . And yes , now they have a single stamp for the ITAS and the Re-entry Permit , except for the second & 3rd Re-entry Permit for a KITAP . But for sure Immigration will charge you the Re-entry Permit + fingerprints & photo according to the prices below :

                            KITAS (paper card/plastic card) :
                            1 year: Rp 800,000/Rp 1,000,000

                            Re-entry Permit :
                            1 year: Rp 1,000,000

                            Digital fingerprints & photo : Rp55,000
                            Last edited by marcus; 15-01-18, 12:36.

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                            • #29
                              Allow me. Regarding this ID(my understanding SKTT is an ID) whoever is in charge to issue it, We got new ITAS 11months ago and we only produced DOMISILI from Kantor Desa. Now we went through this and for us is new even though I believe you when you say you did it many times.
                              Moreover, I was told this SKTT will be valid for long time... (I'll see when I'll get it what expiry date is on it,) why you did it many times?
                              You get caught by their process... Re-entry Visa or Re-entry Permit... what's the difference? : we were or we are paying to leave the Country and enter again despite the fact that we are holding a Resident Permit or Stay Permit however they like to call it.

                              Without wanting to be polemical, all this makes no sense or validity whatsoever. This document (SKTT) is used to obtain a stay permit (it's written on it: to apply for ITAS), but if you do not have a residence permit, how can they issue a document in the name of a foreigner.
                              It made more sense that Kantor Desa certified our presence on site(on the DOMISILI) and once obtained the Permit KITAS ... that was our identity document.
                              I stopped trying to understand their bureaucracy a long time ago and now I return to my conviction that all the immigration bureaucracy is just a means of extorting money as if it is not enough what we spend in this country during our residence.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ghost0906 View Post
                                (f) ... (my understanding SKTT is an ID) ...

                                (g) Moreover, I was told this SKTT will be valid for long time...

                                (h) why you did it many times?

                                (i) ... Re-entry Visa or Re-entry Permit... what's the difference?

                                (j) : ... we are paying to leave the Country and enter again despite the fact that we are holding a Resident Permit or Stay Permit however they like to call it.

                                (k) Without wanting to be polemical, all this makes no sense or validity whatsoever.

                                (l) This document (SKTT) is used to obtain a stay permit (it's written on it: to apply for ITAS), but if you do not have a residence permit, how can they issue a document in the name of a foreigner.

                                (m) It made more sense that Kantor Desa certified our presence on site(on the DOMISILI) and once obtained the Permit KITAS ... that was our identity document.

                                (n) I stopped trying to understand their bureaucracy a long time ago ...


                                (f) The SKTT required in the Law is a kind of Identification Card .

                                (g) All the many SKTT I got have the same validity time as the KITAS .

                                (h) Because I had been required to get a new one every time I extended my KITAS (every year , in my case) .

                                (i) Visa is a document you get at an Embassy (except Visa-on-arrival) . There is no Re-entry Visa . The city's Kantor Imigrasi isuues Permits (Izin Kunjungan/Visit Permit , Izin Tinggal Sementara/KITAS , Izin Masuk Kembali/Re-entry Permit , ...) .

                                (j) Unfortunately yes .

                                (k) Some don't make sense to me , like the : Re-entry Permit , the SKTT , the SKSKP/Surat Keterangan Susunan Keluarga Pendatang/Certificate of Migrant Family Composition , the KTP Orang Asing , the Kartu Keluarga Orang Asing , the Police's STM , ...
                                In Immigration's defense maybe the Re-entry Permit was specifically designed for foreign workers (the employees could not just leave Indonesia without the consent of the employers - so to leave Indonesia the employer had to request a Re-entry Permit , as a KITAS/KITAP holder cannot leave Indonesia without either the Re-entry Permit or the Exit Permit Only) .
                                The SKSKP and KK Orang Asing (similar function) are totally useless .
                                The Police STM was a discriminative document , fortunately it is not required in Immigration Law/Requirement as before , but an habit is difficult to stop , so other government offices are still asking for it .

                                (l) According to the Law , a foreigner holding a KITAS is required to get the SKTT . It seems that Immigration are starting to require the SKTT for the KITAS extension (besides your case , there were other cases as well) , but that means , in my view , a SKTT almost at the end of its validity . Maybe Immigration is doing that because the Surat Domisili is sometimes a handwritten document and the SKTT is a more "reliable" document .

                                So , if you are really getting the "real" SKTT , you are getting one late (with a few weeks validity) .

                                (m) I agree , and the KITAS was working very well as the foreigner's Identity Card , but unfortunately Immigration is not printing the address on it anymore and in some cases , Immigration is issuing the email KITAS (a digital/virtual document sent through email) which I don't know if it is good or bad .

                                (n) Unfortunately we need to understand all that in order to get the documents ourselves , instead of paying an agent .
                                Last edited by marcus; 16-01-18, 12:41.

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