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  • #61
    Originally posted by krosnoholiday
    I think the point was just this. People have been modded or banned here for promoting "corrupt/illegal" activity. However, here it is being praised (and I'm sure all of us agrees it was the best thing to do).

    But who is to say what illegal activity is good and what illegal activity is bad?

    If you ask me, discussions about how to get around the rules about adults not being allowed to hold 2 passports are equally valid, as discussions on how to get out of the country after overstaying. The passport thing doesn't even result in a financial loss to the country, whereas not paying the full overstay fine (300,000/day * 60 or more days, ie minimum 18jt) most certainly does. And how about ways to avoid paying tax, considering how tax money is spent here? What about ways to avoid the land ownership rules?

    I would just like to add my congratulations to veggiedutch on solving his problem.
    Exactly !
    Last edited by JackoThom; 26-01-16, 01:52.

    Comment


    • #62
      Hi..im his wife again.. for the first time in the past month I feel like I can breath again...pheww..


      I just want to say thank you for all the help.. we surely gonna keep updating our way to get everything in legal..

      No we not promoting corruption..we are just tell you the truth just maybe this gonna help someone in somewhere in Indonesia who has the same case..but I dont know if someone also think in different way...


      It was ME as a wife who not think twice about paying them..not HIM..he dont even say YES we gonna pay..he said "if I must in jail,so be it..I want you to go back home" and by the time they offer me different way to solve this thing..what makes you think im gonna think twice?? What makes you think im gonna think about other people that I dont know who is against the corruption?? NO...I dont think about it at all...so yes I say "yes I can afford that money and here is the money so now please let him fly!!!" It was not that simple I must fight for him as my husband..looooong difficult to understand conversation things..but believe me ..you gonna do the same thing if you are in my shoes..while people arguing about right or not of my decision, go ahead if that gonna make them a good person ..for me what matter is he is save and not spend a single second in jail..I just know I do the right thing to save our future, but I admit it I do it in a wrong way..do I have choice? yes I have 2 ..leave him behind and say "ok im done" or pay whatever it cost to end this..

      Apologies for my English...have a lovely day for you all and for you my love,,you are in other side of the world by now I guess ..dont even think you free from me..just dont!!!
      im coming soon!!! <3

      Comment


      • #63
        A nightmare situation you have both been through !, respect for all on the forum who have helped with good advice , in particularly atlantis ,

        I have to say congratulations for immigration whom have handled this problem with humanity.

        Comment


        • #64
          To me this thread has been very special to follow, and I have been thinking about why. I believe the main reason is that VeggieDutch from the very beginning of the thread demonstrated that he already had done his "homework" and that he from the very beginning gave a very open and honest description of his situation. I respect that a lot, and it seems like that approach, and his own active participation in the thread has paid of. I am really happy to see how complete strangers are helping each other, and engage themselves in for a couple of people a very difficult situations like this. Thank you all for sharing your advice - and thanks Mr. and Mrs. VeggieDutch for being so open and honest and sharing - I wish you all the best on your journey of life. And for what it matters - I would also have settled it in the way you did.

          Comment


          • #65
            Good luck for the future veggiedutch and your wife. Once again forum has been very good to someone who was in dire need. Let's keep it that way and don't squabble over a small little word.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by JackoThom View Post
              So much though for the forums' apparent stance and not doing anything to promote corruption it seems?
              Originally posted by JackoThom View Post
              I'm quite sure Atlantis is capable of asking this if need be John. If he does I will answer.
              Wow... I am amazed at how it is easy to misread a sentence. I knew that not being a native speaker certainly doesn't help me to convey perfectly my thoughts but this one certainly needs to be clarified. I wrote:

              tell you what... I wouldn't have imagined that I would say that to anyone who just paid a bribe: YOU HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING
              "You have done the right thing" refers not to the fact that he gave money to Immigration officers, but to the fact that he made the effort to come clean by contacting Imigrasi himself to solve his status problem. This is what it refers: having the guts to, on his own will, entering a KanIm and saying: I was wrong and want to leave in Indonesia legally. THAT (respecting the Indonesian laws and coming clean whenever you haven't) is the forum stance, Eifion, and this is something you have never managed to get in the past 6 years and date of your first ban.

              Now the first part of the sentence "I wouldn't have imagined that I would say that to anyone who just paid a bribe" is a way to downgrade the praise that I express in the second part by remembering that what may be construed at a form of suap has been paid.

              Now, more general explanations:

              Anyone wishing to report my post on the ground that it breaches the forum rule is fully entitled and encouraged to do it. Please, please do it if you believe that any of our rules have been breached. I would hate that my status as a supmod would have anyone believing that there is double standard here. If the admin or panel of mod believes that it has in any way breaches any rule(s) I would bow to their judgement. Yet, I would continue to stand by the fact that, by coming clean and, on his own decision which is what I admire, got in touch with those in charge to enforce the law of the Republic of Indonesia, the country that he has chosen to live and marry in.
              THAT is worth of praise and you can spit on him for the 1,5 jt part, but it just show the kind of human being you are.

              Originally posted by jackoThom
              Where does the law say in your case you have to pay $1500 but you can nego it down to Rp 1.5 Jt ?
              Originally posted by JackoThom
              A bribe however is supporting corruption and not letting the law take its due course without payment in advance to Govt officials. Did you get an official Govt receipt for your "fine" from $1500 negotiated down to Rp1.5 Jt?
              As you have done so many times in the past, which has often been the source of your past bans, you are twisting the truth to suit your goal. That is pretty bad and again shows your true color. However, in doing so, you admirably illustrate the point I was stressing while I referred to "urban legends you may hear from some know-it-all-fellow-expats".

              Where the heck did you hear that "the law say in your case you have to pay $1500"? He had NOTHING to pay, no fine of any sort FFS. There is ABSOLUTELY no state loss. An overstay of more than 60 days, as per article 78 UU 6/2011 is punished by:
              - a deportation
              - a blacklisting
              and no bloody fine. Fines are the administrative sanction which punish overstay of less than 60 days.

              Has he been deported? Yes
              Will he be blacklisted? Probably, I hardly see how they can justify it in the SISKIM, but I am no immigration officer and can't check it. However if they don't they would be at great risk of it biting them back because the SISKIM would reveal that a guy exited Indonesia on that date, and with no record of his entry date in Indonesia.with no.

              I have just re-read the law chapter about pelaksanaan penangkalan and nothing requires that he remains in detention while the blacklisting procedure is on going, especially since he has no legal keluarga here (the law requires that his family - legal spouse or legal child - receives a copy of the keputusan). The law requires that he is detained during the time frame of the deportation procedure and the highest pejabat in a KanIm has full authority to deport you on the spot if you do not oppose it.

              So please anyone enlighten me where there is a State Loss since it appears that no fine was to be paid to the State and that the Immigration Law has been upheld by deporting and (certainly) blacklisting the offender?

              As a reminder and to conclude, for everyone to really get it since it seems that some have jumped in the thread without taking the time to read the post which were already detailing the Law, here is an excerpt of the law:
              Pasal 78
              (1) Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal yang telah berakhir masa berlakunya dan masih berada dalam Wilayah Indonesia kurang dari 60 (enam puluh) hari dari batas waktu Izin Tinggal dikenai biaya beban sesuai dengan ketentuan peraturan perundangundangan.
              (2) Orang Asing yang tidak membayar biaya beban sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) dikenai Tindakan Administratif Keimigrasian berupa Deportasi dan Penangkalan.
              (3) Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal yang telah berakhir masa berlakunya dan masih berada dalam Wilayah Indonesia lebih dari 60 (enam puluh) hari dari batas waktu Izin Tinggal dikenai Tindakan
              Administratif Keimigrasian berupa Deportasi dan Penangkalan.

              (300,000/day * 60 or more days, ie minimum 18jt)
              Perhaps you should read the law before chiming in and stating the above.
              Past 60 days of overstay, there is NO FINE but there a deportation and a blacklisting. The law can not be more clear: "lebih dari 60 (enam puluh) hari dari batas waktu Izin Tinggal dikenai Tindakan Administratif Keimigrasian berupa Deportasi dan Penangkalan.". It does not say "berupa Biaya beban+Deportasi+Penangkalan" does it?

              So again, and that's a question that I ask to those who were eager to jump in the thread, where did the Immigration Law has not been upheld? And where is there any State Loss? Twisting the law certainly have you believing that you made a point but unfortunately, it is not. No fine had to be paid. It's about time for everyone to understand this. Even if he had been staying less than 60 days and not paying the fine wouldn't be against the law per se, as long as he get deported and blacklisted (read ps 78 (2) UU 6/2011). So please, please, please, STOP peddling wrong information if you have no clue about what you are talking about. The community needs VERIFIED legal information, no made up bullsh*t about what one think that the law is or should be.

              Perhaps that if one ponders the above after reading the article 78, one may, at last, understand why my "YOU HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING" could NOT refer to the payment of a bribe to downgrade/nego a fine. He had NOTHING to pay FFS.

              To be honest, I am flabbergasted at how one could reach the conclusion that it could refer to a payment when no payment was due??? This is just insane, imho.

              I kept saying it in this thread that no fine was due and the other one that Jstar kindly linked in post #2. It would be a big service to the community if people would actually read posts (and law) before jumping to conclusion and confuse others in need of help. It is soooooo tiring for those who spend time to do the effort of verifying laws and share them to the board. Not doing so is a disservice to the community and perhaps that one should think about that before pressing the "submit" button.

              Now, and before that some jump on it, I would like to quickly answer to two questions: Is the payment of 1,5 jt, while he had nothing to pay and that the Immigration has been upheld and while there is no state loss, can be legally considered as corruption? And can the payment of 1,5 jt construed as a bribe for not prosecuting the spouse? Well, good luck to you if you believe that you have a case with any of the two. If you intend to argue it on the board I would kindly ask you to back it up with the relevant articles of law and how they are interpreted in Court. Perhaps here again, reading the law and its jurisprudence would greatly help oneself to better understand one's right and limits.

              Over and out. Please report my post(s) if in all honesty you believe that it/they have infringe any of our rules. Mind you, the Moderation Team is not known to have double standards, I have been banned in the past, along with another fellow mod (JM) and a third one (Pony) got infracted. It wouldn't change one thing: HE HAS DONE THE RIGHT THING. As per my sig says, kami harus melakukan sesuai dengan persyaratan dan peraturan yang berlaku untuk Indonesia lebih baik.

              Comment


              • #67
                Oh, and now...

                @ VeggieDutch and wife,
                If you need to have any information about how to have his name removed form the daftar penangkalan/blacklist, feel free to ask. I would be delighted the help you as much as I can. It is a bit tedious and involves a lot of administrative stuff but it is definitively possible.

                Blacklisting lasts 6 month but it is usually automatically re-conducted unless a procedure of removal is initiated.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                  Wow... I am amazed at how it is easy to misread a sentence. I knew that not being a native speaker certainly doesn't help me to convey perfectly my thoughts but this one certainly needs to be clarified. I wrote:

                  "You have done the right thing" refers not to the fact that he gave money to Immigration officers, but to the fact that he made the effort to come clean by contacting Imigrasi himself to solve his status problem. This is what it refers: having the guts to, on his own will, entering a KanIm and saying: I was wrong and want to leave in Indonesia legally. THAT (respecting the Indonesian laws and coming clean whenever you haven't) is the forum stance, Eifion, and this is something you have never managed to get in the past 6 years and date of your first ban.

                  Now the first part of the sentence "I wouldn't have imagined that I would say that to anyone who just paid a bribe" is a way to downgrade the praise that I express in the second part by remembering that what may be construed at a form of suap has been paid.

                  Now, more general explanations:

                  Anyone wishing to report my post on the ground that it breaches the forum rule is fully entitled and encouraged to do it. Please, please do it if you believe that any of our rules have been breached. I would hate that my status as a supmod would have anyone believing that there is double standard here. If the admin or panel of mod believes that it has in any way breaches any rule(s) I would bow to their judgement. Yet, I would continue to stand by the fact that, by coming clean and, on his own decision which is what I admire, got in touch with those in charge to enforce the law of the Republic of Indonesia, the country that he has chosen to live and marry in.
                  THAT is worth of praise and you can spit on him for the 1,5 jt part, but it just show the kind of human being you are.




                  As you have done so many times in the past, which has often been the source of your past bans, you are twisting the truth to suit your goal. That is pretty bad and again shows your true color. However, in doing so, you admirably illustrate the point I was stressing while I referred to "urban legends you may hear from some know-it-all-fellow-expats".

                  Where the heck did you hear that "the law say in your case you have to pay $1500"? He had NOTHING to pay, no fine of any sort FFS. There is ABSOLUTELY no state loss. An overstay of more than 60 days, as per article 78 UU 6/2011 is punished by:
                  - a deportation
                  - a blacklisting
                  and no bloody fine. Fines are the administrative sanction which punish overstay of less than 60 days.

                  Has he been deported? Yes
                  Will he be blacklisted? Probably, I hardly see how they can justify it in the SISKIM, but I am no immigration officer and can't check it. However if they don't they would be at great risk of it biting them back because the SISKIM would reveal that a guy exited Indonesia on that date, and with no record of his entry date in Indonesia.with no.

                  I have just re-read the law chapter about pelaksanaan penangkalan and nothing requires that he remains in detention while the blacklisting procedure is on going, especially since he has no legal keluarga here (the law requires that his family - legal spouse or legal child - receives a copy of the keputusan). The law requires that he is detained during the time frame of the deportation procedure and the highest pejabat in a KanIm has full authority to deport you on the spot if you do not oppose it.

                  So please anyone enlighten me where there is a State Loss since it appears that no fine was to be paid to the State and that the Immigration Law has been upheld by deporting and (certainly) blacklisting the offender?

                  As a reminder and to conclude, for everyone to really get it since it seems that some have jumped in the thread without taking the time to read the post which were already detailing the Law, here is an excerpt of the law:
                  Pasal 78
                  (1) Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal yang telah berakhir masa berlakunya dan masih berada dalam Wilayah Indonesia kurang dari 60 (enam puluh) hari dari batas waktu Izin Tinggal dikenai biaya beban sesuai dengan ketentuan peraturan perundangundangan.
                  (2) Orang Asing yang tidak membayar biaya beban sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) dikenai Tindakan Administratif Keimigrasian berupa Deportasi dan Penangkalan.
                  (3) Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal yang telah berakhir masa berlakunya dan masih berada dalam Wilayah Indonesia lebih dari 60 (enam puluh) hari dari batas waktu Izin Tinggal dikenai Tindakan
                  Administratif Keimigrasian berupa Deportasi dan Penangkalan.



                  Perhaps you should read the law before chiming in and stating the above.
                  Past 60 days of overstay, there is NO FINE but there a deportation and a blacklisting. The law can not be more clear: "lebih dari 60 (enam puluh) hari dari batas waktu Izin Tinggal dikenai Tindakan Administratif Keimigrasian berupa Deportasi dan Penangkalan.". It does not say "berupa Biaya beban+Deportasi+Penangkalan" does it?

                  So again, and that's a question that I ask to those who were eager to jump in the thread, where did the Immigration Law has not been upheld? And where is there any State Loss? Twisting the law certainly have you believing that you made a point but unfortunately, it is not. No fine had to be paid. It's about time for everyone to understand this. Even if he had been staying less than 60 days and not paying the fine wouldn't be against the law per se, as long as he get deported and blacklisted (read ps 78 (2) UU 6/2011). So please, please, please, STOP peddling wrong information if you have no clue about what you are talking about. The community needs VERIFIED legal information, no made up bullsh*t about what one think that the law is or should be.

                  Perhaps that if one ponders the above after reading the article 78, one may, at last, understand why my "YOU HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING" could NOT refer to the payment of a bribe to downgrade/nego a fine. He had NOTHING to pay FFS.

                  To be honest, I am flabbergasted at how one could reach the conclusion that it could refer to a payment when no payment was due??? This is just insane, imho.

                  I kept saying it in this thread that no fine was due and the other one that Jstar kindly linked in post #2. It would be a big service to the community if people would actually read posts (and law) before jumping to conclusion and confuse others in need of help. It is soooooo tiring for those who spend time to do the effort of verifying laws and share them to the board. Not doing so is a disservice to the community and perhaps that one should think about that before pressing the "submit" button.

                  Now, and before that some jump on it, I would like to quickly answer to two questions: Is the payment of 1,5 jt, while he had nothing to pay and that the Immigration has been upheld and while there is no state loss, can be legally considered as corruption? And can the payment of 1,5 jt construed as a bribe for not prosecuting the spouse? Well, good luck to you if you believe that you have a case with any of the two. If you intend to argue it on the board I would kindly ask you to back it up with the relevant articles of law and how they are interpreted in Court. Perhaps here again, reading the law and its jurisprudence would greatly help oneself to better understand one's right and limits.

                  Over and out. Please report my post(s) if in all honesty you believe that it/they have infringe any of our rules. Mind you, the Moderation Team is not known to have double standards, I have been banned in the past, along with another fellow mod (JM) and a third one (Pony) got infracted. It wouldn't change one thing: HE HAS DONE THE RIGHT THING. As per my sig says, kami harus melakukan sesuai dengan persyaratan dan peraturan yang berlaku untuk Indonesia lebih baik.

                  Wow Atlantis. I am glad you got that all off your chest!! . You are the most reasonable and helpful person on the forum, but I do know that you have quite a short fuse as far as dealing with 'idiots' is concerned! Well done on this response, despite the anger! I tried to give you some reputation points, but apparently I have to spread them around a bit before I can.

                  Now get back to your usual smiling self, okay?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                    Anyone wishing to report my post on the ground that it breaches the forum rule is fully entitled and encouraged to do it. Please, please do it if you believe that any of our rules have been breached. I would hate that my status as a supmod would have anyone believing that there is double standard here. If the admin or panel of mod believes that it has in any way breaches any rule(s) I would bow to their judgement. Yet, I would continue to stand by the fact that, by coming clean and, on his own decision which is what I admire, got in touch with those in charge to enforce the law of the Republic of Indonesia, the country that he has chosen to live and marry in.
                    ........................... As per my sig says, kami harus melakukan sesuai dengan persyaratan dan peraturan yang berlaku untuk Indonesia lebih baik.
                    Top stuff. Well done.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Phiss, Johntap.
                      Thanks for the support. Really appreciated.

                      For information, Pak VeggieDutch is already in UAE, half way on his trip.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Yes i am, currently awaiting my transit in Abu Dhabi and still on my phone so bear with me and any typos that may occur (touchscreens don agree with my big fingers). Anyway im amazed and thankful for the attention this thread has gotten. I still owe you guys a detailed report but i would like so say one more thing about the sidediscussion on corruption and bribes:
                        I do believe Atlantis is right. "Counting" on corruption and bribes should be avoided. In no way was it "right" for us to pay the 1.5jt. I will go more in depth to that later, but for now i will just say this:
                        If people keep offering and are willing to bribe, the corruption will never end. The advice given here was great and accurate although i do have a few points to add or change to that in my later detailed post.
                        As one who endured this situation i advise others just not to overstay in such ways and respect and follow the local laws of places that are hosting you. If you keep on the right side of the law always, you won't have to deal with corruption.

                        Atlantis, i will sure get back to you about the blacklist procedure

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Good luck with your continuing adventure. I do hope you follow up with and share with all of us, the final chapter of your odyssey, as well as your comments on the sidebar issues. Interesting stuff for me, but for others similarly situated perhaps a godsend.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            While waiting for VeggiDutch's computer written feed back (I have the same problem with too big fingers), allow me to ask if one doesn't get a stamp in the passport saying "deported" and "black listed". How would the deported know if he/she is black listed?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by VeggieDutch View Post
                              Yes i am, currently awaiting my transit in Abu Dhabi and still on my phone so bear with me and any typos that may occur (touchscreens don agree with my big fingers). Anyway im amazed and thankful for the attention this thread has gotten. I still owe you guys a detailed report but i would like so say one more thing about the sidediscussion on corruption and bribes:
                              I do believe Atlantis is right. "Counting" on corruption and bribes should be avoided. In no way was it "right" for us to pay the 1.5jt. I will go more in depth to that later, but for now i will just say this:
                              If people keep offering and are willing to bribe, the corruption will never end. The advice given here was great and accurate although i do have a few points to add or change to that in my later detailed post.
                              As one who endured this situation i advise others just not to overstay in such ways and respect and follow the local laws of places that are hosting you. If you keep on the right side of the law always, you won't have to deal with corruption.

                              Atlantis, i will sure get back to you about the blacklist procedure
                              I feel happy that u could negotiate from 1500usd to 1.5 juta. I dont support corruption, but if push comes to shove, lower the market rate!

                              Looking forward to it, and if you can share some details of the 4 years + other travels in another thread(different topic = different thread ya) it would definitely be interesting.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Kroshka2007 View Post
                                While waiting for VeggiDutch's computer written feed back (I have the same problem with too big fingers), allow me to ask if one doesn't get a stamp in the passport saying "deported" and "black listed". How would the deported know if he/she is black listed?
                                "Theory" and "practice" often diverge when it comes to the blacklisting procedure. However, it doesn't mean that one can not get his/her rights respected.

                                First, one has to understand that "blacklisting" is usually NOT a life long decision. The only cases where there is a life long blacklisting occurring is when the blacklisted has been deported for being suspected or proven guilty by a Court (Indonesian or foreign) of a crime threatening the security of the Indonesian State or when there has been a huge trouble of the public order. The elucidation of the law list the crimes related to Terrorism, Narcotics and Money counterfeiting as being the eligible crimes. Still in this case, he can appeal of the blacklisting decision to PTUN (Administrative Court) if he wishes.

                                In all other cases, blacklisting is set for MAXIMUM 6 months (the "maximum/paling lama" implies that an authorized pejabat could have authority to blacklist someone for only 7, 15 or 150 days for example) and should end after 6 months, in abstentia of a written decision extending it. A written decision (keputusan) is, as it says, an official document signed and stamped by an authorized pejabat.

                                This is where the theory diverge with the practice. Most often the initial period of maximum 6 months is reconducted without an apparent "keputusan" being passed.

                                Though they can remit a copy of the decision to the blacklisted, nothing really force them to do so. The Law states that a copy of the decision should be sent, in the 7 days of the decision being taken to:

                                - the last address known of the blacklisted, or
                                - the family of the blacklisted (by family the law means ONLY legal spouse or legal child), or
                                - the Indonesian embassy of the country of residence of the blacklisted

                                If you have been declaring that you were residing in Guest House X, Gang Y, Kuta, Bali... well there is a fair chance that it is where it will be sent and you not knowing that you are on the daftar penangkalan. That's why in an earlier post I was saying that the Immigration law has been respected/upheld and that "[COLOR=#333333]nothing requires that he remains in detention while the blacklisting procedure is on going".[/COLOR] They don't need his physical presence, nor they need to physically give him a copy of the keputusan, therefore they can deport him on the spot, qhich is what they did. They can just send the copy of the keputusan to whatever address he would have declared or just to the KBRI in Netherlands, which is what they normally do.

                                So, no, in most cases, you won't have a stamp in the passport saying "blacklisted" and to my knowledge, but I am ready to stand corrected, there are no such "masuk di dalam daftar penangkalan" stamp.

                                There is however a dedicated stamp concerning "deportation".
                                Last edited by atlantis; 26-01-16, 19:35.

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