Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New Manpower Law Requiring Indonesian Language Proficiency Test of Foreign Workers

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by lantern View Post
    I must say that if I met someone in my home country who didn't speak English I wouldn't interpret it as a sign of disrespect. I would, however, see them as being severely handicapped when it came to participating in everyday life due to the monolingual nature of most anglophone countries.
    China is the same as most anglophone countries, they somehow believe that everyone speaks their language ("No really, he must understand a little English/Chinese!"). I spent a year there having learned very little Chinese. It was very difficult... and did not help me to appreciate China. Maybe if I had gone there speaking Chinese, I would welcome the opportunity to go back. As it stands, it's not at the top of my list. Yep, self-imposed misery!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Happyman View Post
      Maybe respect is not the right word... if a person chooses to exclude themselves from your society, how would you describe them? Let's say you often meet up with friends and one of them leaves every time you arrive, how would you characterize his feeling towards you? Better yet, if he finds out you are going to be there, he just doesn't come to the event at all. It doesn't mean he hates you, but it doesn't support the idea that he likes you are his favorite person. If he did the opposite, and attended only when you did... we could guess that he likes you.
      Making no attempt to learn the local language, which is a keystone to participation in the local society and culture, I wouldn't say that is a sign of disrespect, but it is not a sign of respect. Learning the language so you may participate in the local society and culture, that may well be a sign of respect (or some personal need).

      Wow, that's confusing. I didn't say not learning was a sign of disrespect, I said that learning the local language is a sign of respect(or learning it may be, I'll hedge now). You could have a lot of reasons not to learn. I had reasons not to learn the first year I was here.
      I think it's perfectly acceptable to not participate in the local culture as long as you obey the country's laws and generally don't make a nuisance of yourself. Some people just can't get their head around another language and they are the biggest losers and not the local community.

      I should add that I think it's a lot easier to not participate in the local culture if you live in a big city with various subcultures options. Not so in a village. I think living in a village without speaking the local language is a challenge.
      Last edited by lantern; 09-01-15, 20:57.
      "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
      George Bernard Shaw

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by ScooterIndo View Post
        If you are going to be here a year or so how about just wanting to learn Bahasa out of a modicum of respect for the Indonesians ??
        I have worked all over the world and make a point of trying to pick up a few basic words and phrases wherever I go (Please and thank you being the primaries) regardless of how long I will be in country.

        After all we are living in their country, surely as a bit of a courtesy it wouldn't be too much to ask. I used to hate seeing immigrants who had been in the UK for decades and yet still couldn't string a sentence together (Yeah I know - SFW) and made a conscientious effort to master the language when I first arrived in Jakarta knowing that I was going to be there for at least a few years. Glad that I did as the country really opened up to me. I studied French for three years at school and apart from 2 or 3 phrases I still cant speak French and yet I was (basic) conversational in Bahasa after six months. If I can do it anyone can.

        Sad to see so many people offering up excuses about why they cant, why they shouldn't, and how its a waste of time. Even sadder to see expats that have been here for 15 years struggle with the most basic of tasks as they have no command of the language.
        I agree with you that people should try to learn the language. I just don't believe that the law is good public policy.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by lantern View Post
          I must say that if I met someone in my home country who didn't speak English I wouldn't interpret it as a sign of disrespect.
          Maybe you would if that someone had been poncing off of your countries social security for decades. Or maybe that's just me

          Comment


          • #35
            Maybe you would if that someone had been poncing off of your countries social security for decades. Or maybe that's just me
            No, it's not just you Scooter. I get really cheesed off back in London when I see foreigners who have been there for years and still can't communicate. And as the number of immigrants continues to grow there's less and less need for them to speak English because they can see to all their needs within their own communities. Can you believe that the English (not UK) National Health Service spent 23 million pounds in 2011 on the translation of documents and provision of interpreters?

            Expecting a newcomer to Indonesia to speak the language on arrival or within a short space of time is not rational when they are busy trying to settle into a new post in a new country but it's perfectly fair to demand that somebody has a good grasp of the lingo before they can get a KITAP.
            If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ScooterIndo View Post
              Maybe you would if that someone had been poncing off of your countries social security for decades. Or maybe that's just me
              In that case I would be asking questions? There are quite a few cases in the UK/Ireland. I love it when those up in court on welfare fraud need an interpreter. They had enough English to con the system.
              "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by burungkecil View Post

                Expecting a newcomer to Indonesia to speak the language on arrival or within a short space of time is not rational when they are busy trying to settle into a new post in a new country but it's perfectly fair to demand that somebody has a good grasp of the lingo before they can get a KITAP.
                That seems more defensible as a matter of policy. Certainly, requiring knowledge of the language in order to gain citizenship is completely reasonable.

                Comment


                • #38
                  JG article today (it's still the 13th in my neck of the woods)

                  http://thejakartaglobe.beritasatu.co...language-test/
                  Last edited by lantern; 14-01-15, 02:41.
                  "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                  George Bernard Shaw

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Do think the test might be similar to the one required to get a driver's license?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
                      Do think the test might be similar to the one required to get a driver's license?
                      Mr Whitchurch(from the article) would seem to have similar concerns:

                      "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]How the language test is implemented will seriously affect the already tight competition among businesses that employ a large number of foreign workers, Whitchurch added.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“We’re a foreign investment company operating in Indonesia. We’ve obtained our operating permit, we’re registered at the tax office, we have a mining service license, and everyone working here has work permits,” he said.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“If the language regulation will be applied, [SMG Consultants] will comply as well,” Whitchurch assured.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“But I can name you many companies — foreign and local — who break the laws every day. They break immigration laws, mining laws, business laws — but no one is prosecuted.”[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]Thus to ensure a level-playing field, the government must treat all those companies equally and make no exemptions, Whitchurch said.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“The thing is, the less compliant you are with the law, the more money you make. Companies that don’t comply with regulations will win, and those who are compliant are losers,” he said"[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
                      George Bernard Shaw

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lantern View Post
                        Mr Whitchurch(from the article) would seem to have similar concerns:

                        "[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]How the language test is implemented will seriously affect the already tight competition among businesses that employ a large number of foreign workers, Whitchurch added.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“We’re a foreign investment company operating in Indonesia. We’ve obtained our operating permit, we’re registered at the tax office, we have a mining service license, and everyone working here has work permits,” he said.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                        [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“If the language regulation will be applied, [SMG Consultants] will comply as well,” Whitchurch assured.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                        [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“But I can name you many companies — foreign and local — who break the laws every day. They break immigration laws, mining laws, business laws — but no one is prosecuted.”[/FONT][/COLOR]
                        [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]Thus to ensure a level-playing field, the government must treat all those companies equally and make no exemptions, Whitchurch said.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                        [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]“The thing is, the less compliant you are with the law, the more money you make. Companies that don’t comply with regulations will win, and those who are compliant are losers,” he said"[/FONT][/COLOR]
                        and also from the same article

                        "For that they must first obtain a socio-cultural visa and, if their real intention is to work here, then they will potentially break the laws, Peter pointed out. “And that means you would have to be very interested in working here. I support that foreigners must learn Indonesian, but this regulation will create a lot of complexities for both the expats and the companies that hire them,” Peter said.


                        “[The regulation] is going to be very difficult to implement. If it will really be implemented, there will be an exodus of expats; probably 80 percent of them will have to leave the country — unless they just pay their way to get the work permits or find a loophole somewhere in the regulation.”


                        This bring me back to my previous comment...
                        La motivation vient en se motivant ~ Motivation come by self-motivation

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          "Jakarta. A draft government regulation that will require foreigners to master the Indonesian language before they are able to obtain a work permit here has elicited incredulity and skepticism from members of the local expatriate community, who responded to the announcement with criticism"

                          I hope to god this "master the Indonesian language" part is either an exaggeration or a misquote. (from Jakarta Globe, link in post #38)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            By number most expats are chinese. It could be targeted at them and the expected numbers from Asean open market.

                            Of course westerners have more money so they will get targeted more frequently on a per capita basis.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              It does seem especially bizarre to require "mastery" (or passing of a test) BEFORE acquisition of a work permit. Surely even those who view the law favorably (Scooter and travelingchez perhaps?) realize that you probably can't become competent until you've been living here a while. The law would make more sense if people had to pass a test after, for example, a year living in the country. I'm willing to bet that neither Scooter or travelingchez were competent speakers when they first set foot on Indonesian soil, is that correct? (And I believe you both have what is sometimes referred to as a "sleeping dictionary"* so you all have an unfair advantage )

                              * That term is not offensive, I hope! It's not meant to be.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by akubrahat View Post
                                By number most expats are chinese. It could be targeted at them and the expected numbers from Asean open market.

                                Of course westerners have more money so they will get targeted more frequently on a per capita basis.
                                It will be a more effective deterrent for Chinese, as they will have greater difficulty learning the language than will those who use an alphabet. But when you consider the numbers side... The amount of Chinese who will see Indonesia as a good place to work, compared to westerners... I think the net effect will be a greater reduction of western foreigners, as compared to Chinese, if the policy is implemented in a consistent and genuine fashion.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X