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  • Indonesian wife sponsored kitap and work permit

    Dear All,

    The amount and quality of information provided in this forum is incredible and to be highly commended. I would therefore be extremely grateful if any of you could inform me of the most recent position regarding the new Indonesian wife sponsored kitap. Is the system now up and running so that it can be processed at any immigration office (in my case Bogor), how much does it cost, and are you then allowed to work anywhere with it (any sector, and province)? Or do you have to obtain a work permit separately (from Depnaker?) and if so how difficult is that in view of recent legislation regarding age and qualifications?

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by binels; 05-05-12, 14:24.

  • #2
    Originally posted by binels View Post
    (1) ...I would therefore be extremely grateful if any of you could inform me of the most recent position regarding the new Indonesian wife sponsored kitap.

    (2) Is the system now up and running so that it can be processed at any immigration office (in my case Bogor), how much does it cost,

    (3) and are you then allowed to work anywhere with it (any sector, and province)? Or do you have to obtain a work permit separately (from Depnaker?)

    (4) and if so how difficult is that in view of recent legislation regarding age and qualifications?
    (1) No revision of the immigration's regulation yet , but Atlantis says it will come very soon .

    (2) Even without this expected revision of the regulation , a KITAP sponsored by Indonesian spouse can be obtained after getting the second extension of a KITAS sponsored by Indonesian spouse . A KITAP cost Rp3055k (+folder ,..) .

    (3) Immigration says you can work with a KITAS or KITAP sponsored by Indonesian spouse , but Manpower officers say : not without a work permit . If you are eligible for a work permit , better get it , to be completely safe .

    http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...382#post245382 (see below a partial copy of Atlantis'post no.36)
    [..I have discussed with middle and high ranking pejabat in the immigration who told me: for us (read: immigration officer) you are authorized to work. The "for us" has importance. It means that as long as nakertrans does not chime in, immigration may not bother you. If your wife opens her own business, you have reasonnable chances to be ignored by nakertrans. Why? Because your wife has no chance to get an IMTA for you if it is a family business...]

    (4) I don't know much . Age over 55 or 60 may be a problem .

    http://www.expat.or.id/business/jobseekers.html

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by marcus View Post
      (1) No revision of the immigration's regulation yet , but Atlantis says it will come very soon .

      (2) Even without this expected revision of the regulation , a KITAP sponsored by Indonesian spouse can be obtained after getting the second extension of a KITAS sponsored by Indonesian spouse . A KITAP cost Rp3055k (+folder ,..) .

      (3) Immigration says you can work with a KITAS or KITAP sponsored by Indonesian spouse , but Manpower officers say : not without a work permit . If you are eligible for a work permit , better get it , to be completely safe .

      http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...382#post245382 (see below a partial copy of Atlantis'post no.36)
      [..I have discussed with middle and high ranking pejabat in the immigration who told me: for us (read: immigration officer) you are authorized to work. The "for us" has importance. It means that as long as nakertrans does not chime in, immigration may not bother you. If your wife opens her own business, you have reasonnable chances to be ignored by nakertrans. Why? Because your wife has no chance to get an IMTA for you if it is a family business...]

      (4) I don't know much . Age over 55 or 60 may be a problem .

      http://www.expat.or.id/business/jobseekers.html
      Dear Marcus,

      Thanks so much for your extremely useful info, but just one remaining question. Do you have to have a KITAS renewed twice from your wife or can you go from a company sponsored KITAS (extended at least twice) directly to a wife sponsored KITAP?

      Cheers

      John

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by binels View Post
        Dear Marcus,

        Thanks so much for your extremely useful info, but just one remaining question. Do you have to have a KITAS renewed twice from your wife or can you go from a company sponsored KITAS (extended at least twice) directly to a wife sponsored KITAP?

        Cheers

        John
        With the current or with the old law one can NOT go from a company sponsored KITAS directly to a wife sponsored KITAP. The sponsor has to be the same if you want to convvert an ITAS in an ITAP. Therefore it means that you need first to either:
        - initate a procedure of change of sponsor (company to wife) on teh ITAS, then convert the new ITAS sponsored by the wife to an ITAP sponsored by the wife.
        - EPO the ITAS sponsored by the company, exit the country then seek a VITAS initiated by your wife as a sponsor.

        In the next two weeks, the new regulations concerning the UU 6/2011 will be publicized and socialized. We can hope for some clarifications. I would be surprised that drastic changes occur from the above. At least, the last draft I've read last month wasn't instauring any change.

        A friend of mine has been seeking information in a KanIm concerning an ITAS to ITAP conversion and was in the same case than you. He has been answered by a kepala seksi that he would have to wait 3 years on an ITAS sponsored by his wife before being able to convert it in an ITAP. It just show how incompetent they can be. The guy has misread the stipulations of article 60 and has wrongly applied the stipulation of paragraph 1 (which concern only applicants who are investors, clerics or expert workers) to his case, which should be addressed only with the stipulation of the paragraph 2. And the guy who told him this is the one in charge of the section which deals with immigration status in a KanIm!

        Article 60 UU 6/2011

        (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf a diberikan setelah pemohon tinggal menetap selama 3 (tiga) tahun berturut-turut dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
        (2) Untuk mendapatkan Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf b diberikan setelah usia perkawinannya mencapai 2 (dua) tahun dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
        (3) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf c dan huruf d dapat langsung diberikan.


        Article 54 UU 6/2011

        (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap dapat diberikan kepada:
        a. Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal terbatas sebagai rohaniwan, pekerja, investor, dan lanjut usia;
        b. keluarga karena perkawinan campuran;
        c. suami, istri, dan/atau anak dari Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal Tetap; dan
        d. Orang Asing eks warga negara Indonesia dan eks subjek anak berkewarganegaraan ganda Republik Indonesia.


        The two above articles mean that if you are married for more than 2 years, you are eligible for an ITAP without any conditions of minimum time as a resident being sponsored by your wife. You just need to have to have the proper ITAS sponsored by the wife and follow the procedure.

        Comment


        • #5
          Bonjour Atlantis! Hope you're having a fine Sunday morning there in Manado

          According to pasal 60 ayat 3 (which refers to pasal 54 ayat 1 (c) and (d), an ex-WNI can get KITAP "langsung" (directly). What does "directly" mean in that context? Let's say an [COLOR=#FF0000]unmarried[/COLOR] ex-WNI comes to Indonesia today, and he wants a KITAP tomorrow.......so he can apply directly just like that....? Really? Isn't it too good to be true?
          Do you know if there are any pre-requisites, such as the said ex-WNI's having to marry a WNI first, before he can "langsung" get a KITAP"?? (None of the pasals mention such a requirement though, but I may misunderstand).

          Cheers .

          Comment


          • #6
            Like most members we're also waiting, almost with bated breath, the promised implementation of the UU2011. According to Atlantis this may occur as soon as tomorrow, so, prior to that implementation, we are just speculating.

            My wife is an ex WNI having taken Canadian Citizenship when we both immigrated there over 20 years ago.

            I'm a WNA and on a Retirement Visa in RI and, as she is not 55, I have to sponsor her on a Spousal Dependant Visa....how ironic. This is because Indonesia does not permit dual nationality. However, I recognize every country has its sovereign right to implement its own Immigration policies.

            Hopefully, the new law will amend this and she can get a direct Kitap and sponsor me as her dependant, also on a Kitap.
            Last edited by Davita; 06-05-12, 11:27.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Davita View Post
              Like most members we're also waiting, almost with bated breath, the promised implementation of the UU2011. According to Atlantis this may occur as soon as tomorrow, so, prior to that implementation, we are just speculating.

              My wife is an ex WNI having taken Canadian Citizenship when we both immigrated there over 20 years ago.

              I'm a WNA and on a Retirement Visa in RI and, as she is not 55, I have to sponsor her on a Spousal Dependant Visa....how ironic. This is because Indonesia does not permit dual nationality. However, I recognize every country has its sovereign right to implement its own Immigration policies.

              Hopefully, the new law will amend this and she can get a direct Kitap and sponsor me as her dependant, also on a Kitap.
              Yes that's very ironic indeed Dave. If you could go back to the past, you would probably tell your wife to keep her Indonesian citizenship right? Things would be a lot simpler for you both nowadays...

              What are the advantages of KITAP over the retirement visa?

              (A bit off topic here: by the way I've always been curious, are governments around the world willing to deposit pensions to foreign bank accounts? Or is it better to let them deposit to a bank account in the foreigner's original country?)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by atlantis View Post

                Article 60 UU 6/2011

                (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf a diberikan setelah pemohon tinggal menetap selama 3 (tiga) tahun berturut-turut dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
                (2) Untuk mendapatkan Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf b diberikan setelah usia perkawinannya mencapai 2 (dua) tahun dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
                (3) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf c dan huruf d dapat langsung diberikan.


                Article 54 UU 6/2011

                (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap dapat diberikan kepada:
                a. Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal terbatas sebagai rohaniwan, pekerja, investor, dan lanjut usia;
                b. keluarga karena perkawinan campuran;
                c. suami, istri, dan/atau anak dari Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal Tetap; dan
                d. Orang Asing eks warga negara Indonesia dan eks subjek anak berkewarganegaraan ganda Republik Indonesia.


                The two above articles mean that if you are married for more than 2 years, you are eligible for an ITAP without any conditions of minimum time as a resident being sponsored by your wife. You just need to have to have the proper ITAS sponsored by the wife and follow the procedure.
                It was impossible for us to have these article properly implemented at KanWil in march 2012. My wife printed a copy of the Undang-undang Article 54 UU 6/2011 and showed it to the officer. At first they doubted on the authenticity of the document because my wife only brought the page that contained that article.

                Then he instructed my wife to make the first KITAS extension because the KITAP was not possible for us according to Peraturan Pemerintah nomor 38 tahun 2005.

                Basically, for the application of the article it still refers to the year 2005 guide lines, being minimum 2 years KITAS sponsored by wife (As oppose to being MARRIED for more than 2 years).

                Based on the immigration officer information, UU 6/2011 DOESN'T HAVE PETUNJUK PELAKSANAAN, THIS IS THE REASON WHY THEY STILL REFER TO Peraturan Pemerintah nomor 38 tahun 2005.

                Both KanIm Batam and KanWil Tanjung Pinang seems to confirm this.

                http://www.northbali.info/living/kitas_kitap.pdf (page 7)
                However in 2005 a regulation (Peraturan Pemerintah nomor 38 tahun 2005) changed the
                alinea (2) of the article 49, which now reads :
                Bahasa Indonesia
                Pasal 49
                (2) Pengalihan status sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) dapat diberikan atas dasar permintaan
                orang asing yang bersangkutan, dengan syarat telah berada di wilayah Negara Republik Indonesia
                sekurang-kurangnya 2 (dua) tahun berturut-turut sejak tanggal diberikannya Izin Tinggal
                Terbatas.
                Translation:
                Article 49
                (2) The status change as meant in paragraph (1) shall be granted at the request of the relevant
                foreigners with the provision that they have already stayed in the territory of the Republic of
                Indonesia for at least two consecutive years starting from the issuance date of limited stay
                permits
                It has been further explained in the Surat Penjelasan accompanying the law with these terms:
                Ayat (2)
                " Yang dimaksud dengan telah berada di wilayah Negara Republik Indonesia sekurang-kurangnya
                2 (dua) tahun berturut-turut sejak diberikannya Izin Tinggal Terbatas adalah terhadap orang asing
                dengan memperhatikan aspek kemanfaatan orang asing tersebut bagi pembangunan nasional dan
                aspek kemanusiaan "
                It means that a KITAS will be converted in a KITAP, considering the participation of the foreigner
                in the national development and considering humanitarian aspects. A bit subjective...

                Any thoughts on that, Altlantis?
                Cheers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fandv View Post
                  Yes that's very ironic indeed Dave. If you could go back to the past, you would probably tell your wife to keep her Indonesian citizenship right? Things would be a lot simpler for you both nowadays...

                  What are the advantages of KITAP over the retirement visa?

                  (A bit off topic here: by the way I've always been curious, are governments around the world willing to deposit pensions to foreign bank accounts? Or is it better to let them deposit to a bank account in the foreigner's original country?)
                  1. Although it surely would make our life here in Indonesia easier if she had remained an RI Citizen I think our life in Canada, snowbirding in Arizona and travelling generally, would have been more difficult with her Indonesian Passport.

                  2. A Retirement Visa must be sponsored by an authorized travel agent which allows them to extort/charge like a wounded elephant, and it only lasts a year. The Kitap can be done as a DIY cheaply, and lasts for 5 years.

                  3. I have some pensions from UK and Canada. I have them deposited in my HSBC Premier Bank in those source countries. I also have HSBC Premier Account in Indonesia in GBP, CDN$ and IDR.
                  I freely transfer using internet on HSBC Global View (A facility which shows HSBC world-wide accounts on one page) into those appropriate currency accounts in Jakarta, then, when convenient, approach my HSBC representative and get a 'Premier' currency rate of exchange.

                  Works for me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                    With the current or with the old law one can NOT go from a company sponsored KITAS directly to a wife sponsored KITAP. The sponsor has to be the same if you want to convvert an ITAS in an ITAP. Therefore it means that you need first to either:
                    - initate a procedure of change of sponsor (company to wife) on teh ITAS, then convert the new ITAS sponsored by the wife to an ITAP sponsored by the wife.
                    - EPO the ITAS sponsored by the company, exit the country then seek a VITAS initiated by your wife as a sponsor.

                    In the next two weeks, the new regulations concerning the UU 6/2011 will be publicized and socialized. We can hope for some clarifications. I would be surprised that drastic changes occur from the above. At least, the last draft I've read last month wasn't instauring any change.

                    A friend of mine has been seeking information in a KanIm concerning an ITAS to ITAP conversion and was in the same case than you. He has been answered by a kepala seksi that he would have to wait 3 years on an ITAS sponsored by his wife before being able to convert it in an ITAP. It just show how incompetent they can be. The guy has misread the stipulations of article 60 and has wrongly applied the stipulation of paragraph 1 (which concern only applicants who are investors, clerics or expert workers) to his case, which should be addressed only with the stipulation of the paragraph 2. And the guy who told him this is the one in charge of the section which deals with immigration status in a KanIm!

                    Article 60 UU 6/2011

                    (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf a diberikan setelah pemohon tinggal menetap selama 3 (tiga) tahun berturut-turut dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
                    (2) Untuk mendapatkan Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf b diberikan setelah usia perkawinannya mencapai 2 (dua) tahun dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
                    (3) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf c dan huruf d dapat langsung diberikan.


                    Article 54 UU 6/2011

                    (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap dapat diberikan kepada:
                    a. Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal terbatas sebagai rohaniwan, pekerja, investor, dan lanjut usia;
                    b. keluarga karena perkawinan campuran;
                    c. suami, istri, dan/atau anak dari Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal Tetap; dan
                    d. Orang Asing eks warga negara Indonesia dan eks subjek anak berkewarganegaraan ganda Republik Indonesia.


                    The two above articles mean that if you are married for more than 2 years, you are eligible for an ITAP without any conditions of minimum time as a resident being sponsored by your wife. You just need to have to have the proper ITAS sponsored by the wife and follow the procedure.
                    Atlantis Hi!

                    The quality and depth of your posts are incredible, and I, along with many others I'm sure, would like to express my sincere gratitude to both you and Marcus for the great help you offer along the way. I guess we all need to wait a few more days to see exactly what immigration is offering and how they're socialising it.

                    Once again, thanks so much

                    John

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Atlantis,great info thanks.
                      I just want to ask about the Kitap situation.I have a retired KITAP sponcered by a Company.(not mine or my wife's).I previously had a retirement KITAS for 5 years and converted to a retirement KITAP. I have been married to an Indonesian National for over 10 years.When my Retirement Kitap is due to be renewed can I convert to a married KITAP without to much trouble,or do I have to go through all the hullabaloo again.??The point is that the renewal of the Retirement Kitap is 30juta.I understand that you give many people info on obtaining a married Kitap at the right price of about 3jt plus mult exit costs.But does anyone actually get it or do they just run rings around you.After living here for 18years I sort of understand the principal of cheap NO GOOD,GOOD NO CHEAP.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Kitap RETIRED conversion to Kitap Married

                        Hi Atlantis and anyone with info.
                        I already have a Kitap retired (sponsored by a Company)
                        I want to convert it to a Married Kitap
                        Has any one Information on this subject
                        Thanks to Atlantis and all the good folk who have posted on this blog.
                        It is invaluable info to help navigate the tricky process we are all subject to.
                        I love living in Indonesia,I love my wife and kids and would like to stay until I die (already 16 years here)




                        Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                        With the current or with the old law one can NOT go from a company sponsored KITAS directly to a wife sponsored KITAP. The sponsor has to be the same if you want to convvert an ITAS in an ITAP. Therefore it means that you need first to either:
                        - initate a procedure of change of sponsor (company to wife) on teh ITAS, then convert the new ITAS sponsored by the wife to an ITAP sponsored by the wife.
                        - EPO the ITAS sponsored by the company, exit the country then seek a VITAS initiated by your wife as a sponsor.

                        In the next two weeks, the new regulations concerning the UU 6/2011 will be publicized and socialized. We can hope for some clarifications. I would be surprised that drastic changes occur from the above. At least, the last draft I've read last month wasn't instauring any change.

                        A friend of mine has been seeking information in a KanIm concerning an ITAS to ITAP conversion and was in the same case than you. He has been answered by a kepala seksi that he would have to wait 3 years on an ITAS sponsored by his wife before being able to convert it in an ITAP. It just show how incompetent they can be. The guy has misread the stipulations of article 60 and has wrongly applied the stipulation of paragraph 1 (which concern only applicants who are investors, clerics or expert workers) to his case, which should be addressed only with the stipulation of the paragraph 2. And the guy who told him this is the one in charge of the section which deals with immigration status in a KanIm!

                        Article 60 UU 6/2011

                        (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf a diberikan setelah pemohon tinggal menetap selama 3 (tiga) tahun berturut-turut dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
                        (2) Untuk mendapatkan Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf b diberikan setelah usia perkawinannya mencapai 2 (dua) tahun dan menandatangani Pernyataan Integrasi kepada pemerintah Republik Indonesia.
                        (3) Izin Tinggal Tetap bagi pemohon sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf c dan huruf d dapat langsung diberikan.


                        Article 54 UU 6/2011

                        (1) Izin Tinggal Tetap dapat diberikan kepada:
                        a. Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal terbatas sebagai rohaniwan, pekerja, investor, dan lanjut usia;
                        b. keluarga karena perkawinan campuran;
                        c. suami, istri, dan/atau anak dari Orang Asing pemegang Izin Tinggal Tetap; dan
                        d. Orang Asing eks warga negara Indonesia dan eks subjek anak berkewarganegaraan ganda Republik Indonesia.


                        The two above articles mean that if you are married for more than 2 years, you are eligible for an ITAP without any conditions of minimum time as a resident being sponsored by your wife. You just need to have to have the proper ITAS sponsored by the wife and follow the procedure.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have been married to an Indonesian wife since 2008 in (married in Indonesia with all documentation etc.). We also have one child born in Indonesia. I have been staying with a company sponsored KITAS for 5 years (the company is my wifes company and she is the presiden direktur). I am very sick of the process every year and have been given the run around by Binka (Bunch of INcompetent and Krappy Assholes) so I want a KITAP right away for as little money as possible. Right now I need to apply for KITAS again because of the 4 extensions rule and need to leave the country to do it. This completely sucks. Does anyone know if:

                          A) I can remain in Indonesia on a temporary extension to my current KITAS or Visa until the KITAP is processed?
                          B) Can I work in my wife's company (to provide for her and our child) without being harassed by some jackass?
                          C) Can this be done for 3jt as a wife-sponsored KITAP and not some ridiculous sum of money?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Big Pineapple View Post
                            (1) ...When my Retirement Kitap is due to be renewed can I convert to a married KITAP without to much trouble,or do I have to go through all the hullabaloo again.??

                            (2) I understand that you give many people info on obtaining a married Kitap at the right price of about 3jt plus mult exit costs.But does anyone actually get it or do they just run rings around you.

                            (3) After living here for 18years I sort of understand the principal of cheap NO GOOD,GOOD NO CHEAP.
                            (1) I guess you theoretically could change the KITAP sponsor , from the agent to your Indonesian spouse . The problem is that the agent has to agree (has to issue a letter for that) and Kantor Imigrasi doesn't like to do this sponsor's change process .
                            Anyway , it is worth to try . There is no official immigration fee to do that , and if your agent and your Kantor Imigrasi agree , we can give you more details about the process .

                            What you certainly can do is :
                            (a) At the end of your present KITAP (or at any time) , ask your agent to cancel the KITAP (get you an Exit Only Permit/EPO) . Better tell the agent that you want to move to your country , or something like that .

                            (b) Go to a nearby country (Singapore , Malaysia , ..) and get a get a single entry Social Cultural/Family Visit Visa (single entry Sosbud Visa) , sponsored by your spouse , at an Indonesian Embassy .

                            http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...s+Kuala+Lumpur (how to get a Sosbud in KL)

                            (c) After returning to Indonesia , convert the Sosbud Visa into a KITAS sponsored by your Indonesian spouse .

                            http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...2841#post72841 , (post no.128 , example of converting Sosbud into KITAS)

                            Note : If you don't live in Jakarta , now you can deal with Jakarta by mail/courier , don't need to go there .

                            (d) At any time , convert the KITAS sponsored by spouse into a KITAP sponsored by spouse .

                            http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...-an-Indonesian (example of KITAS to KITAP)


                            (2) There are many posts in this Forum about people who succeeded in doing what Atlantis recommended .

                            (3) Not everybody think the same . I am in Indonesia for more than 10 years , and have done everything cheaply .
                            I believe that a relevant difference between us is that you used to ask people to do things for you , instead , I used to do things by myself . Doing by yourself may be a little difficult at the beginning , but after you have done one or two times , all becomes simple , easy , cheap , and good (work done by yourself will be better done than if done by somebody else whose main interest is to have a profit) .
                            Last edited by marcus; 16-08-13, 11:09.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Terminator View Post
                              I already have a Kitap retired (sponsored by a Company)
                              I want to convert it to a Married Kitap
                              Has any one Information on this subject ...

                              Please read post no. 14 above .

                              Comment

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