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  • Changes to content and procedures for the Job listings channels

    The moderation team has made several changes to the channels that list jobs for expatriates or Indonesians, as noted below:


    1. A template similar to the one required for those seeking to hire expatriates has been added to the jobs for Indonesians channel.

    2. Both templates now have a "last date on which applications will be accepted" field.

    3. Both templates have an asterisk on the "skills/qualifications" field that leads to this footnote:
    The Living in Indonesia Expatriate Forum does not condone discrimination in hiring for any reason, including gender. Job advertisements that are consistent with Indonesian law are permitted, however you are strongly discouraged from specifying male or female applicants only or establishing extraneous requirements such as age limits. Please be aware that many forum members find these limitations offensive and may choose not to apply for your openings if you include sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory language.

    4. A new sticky directed at forum users has been added to each channel. It reads as follows:
    The purpose of this channel is assist forum members who are looking for employment. It is not here so that posters, in particular those who are not seeking a job themselves, can offer their unsolicited opinions about the salary or working conditions offered by a particular employer. If you see a job advertisement that breaks forum guidelines, please report it using the "report" function (click on the little triangle with an exclamation point inside it). The only posts that should be made in job threads are sincere requests for clarification about the position offered. All other comments will be removed from the moderation queue/deleted without warning.

    Regarding discriminatory qualifications that employers may list (i.e., "male applicants only"), the forum does not condone this kind of advertisement. There is language to that effect in the template that all employers are required to follow. However, such restrictions are legal in Indonesia and we will not remove or edit advertisements that include them. Our first concern is serving the forum community. Because it is particularly difficult for expatriates to find employment in Indonesia, we leave the decision to individuals as to whether they wish to pursue a job opportunity with an employer that openly discriminates. Also, we believe it does a disservice to potential applicants if we edit out discriminatory language, thus opening up the possibility that, for example, a woman may apply for a job with an employer who will reject her based on gender. It would be better if the employer's discriminatory policy was clear up front so she could save herself the time.

    In short, we have tried to find a policy that would address concerns about discriminatory hiring practices without limiting access to job information. At the same time, we are acting to eliminate the chit-chat (often critical in tone) that often goes on in the job listing threads. Entertaining though the remarks may be, they do not serve the purpose of the channel and may in fact act to discourage potential employers from participating.
    Last edited by Puspawarna; 06-02-13, 12:22.

  • #2
    No salary requirements in the template?
    "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
    George Bernard Shaw

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    • #3
      My personal knowledge of the historical comments made is limited, but I'm told that Indonesian posters have said they prefer not to have the "salary range" field in the template. However, if Indonesian forum members speak up and it is clear that they prefer to have the "salary range" entry in the template, we'll put it in.

      ETA - the "salary range" field remains in the template for expatriate job listings. That hasn't changed.
      Last edited by Puspawarna; 06-02-13, 17:44.

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      • #4
        Thanks for all the information on job seeking for this this site, I will now visit regular to view recently added jobs here and if suitable apply.

        Have a nice night guys......
        [COLOR=#000000]"A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing."
        [/COLOR]

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        • #5
          Originally posted by lantern View Post
          No salary requirements in the template?
          To be honest, lantern, I've tried in the past to ask for companies to include a salary requirement concerning jobs they propose for Indonesians. Thus, I've deleted their thread and have PMed them. I was baffled to find out that none of the companies I've PMed have ever bothered to re-post their ad with the inclusion requested. At the end of the day, it has been lost opportunities for some of our indonesian members who may need a job. I didn't try to reiterate it. They don't really need us to put an ad to access the market of Indonesian workers while our users may not find it bad to get a job proposal from their favorite forum.

          Most (if not all) indonesian website/newspaper proposing job ads for indonesian does not have such salary requirement to be included in ads. Some companies are upfront with salaries but many others will advertise "gaji pokok", "Tunjangan transpor", "THR", "Dana pensiun", "bonus insentif" or whatever but not necessarily figures.

          Anyway, we plan to edit the guidelines to encourage employer to include a salary range but do not want to impose it. To us, the important thing is to try to propose as much opportunities as we can.

          Also, to be totally frank, the salary and immigration document requirements in the expat job channel is only enforced thoroughfully when it comes to teaching jobs. Why? Because we all know that there are some schools which are absolutely serious but there are also others who pay a pretty low salary and which consider that they don't need to comply with the indonesian law concerning foreign manpower.
          If a headhunter post an ad to look for one or several top executives, and do not follow exactly the template, I am gonna be honest: I just approve the ad even if they do not include a salary range. I assume that if they want to attract a top executive, they are not gonna propose a couple of box of cornflakes as a salary and a pair of sunglasses to visit Imigrasi in order to extend their VoA.
          Last edited by atlantis; 06-02-13, 19:35.

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          • #6
            Thanks for the detailed explanation. Much appreciated. I do hope the Indonesian members of the Forum contact the moderators and let their preferences be known about including a salary range requirement or not. Since the category is for Indonesians it is fitting that their wishes rule the day.

            As an aside, many of the ads are so poorly composed, they are fertile ground for fun poking. Others are no laughing matter -- utterly lack in professionalism, transparency, and include conditions that are illegal in societies that value merit first among selection criteria. Nevertheless, I will find nits to pick elsewhere.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by atlantis View Post
              I was baffled to find out that none of the companies I've PMed have ever bothered to re-post their ad with the inclusion requested. At the end of the day, it has been lost opportunities for some of our indonesian members who may need a job.
              I think employers post once, and probably in multiple media, and then don't have the time or inclination to return.
              "[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Helvetica Neue]I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.[/FONT][/COLOR]"
              George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • #8
                I would have said that the bulk of the ads for Indonesian people are for household staff and not from companies...
                Cicak Magnet

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by lantern View Post
                  I think employers post once, and probably in multiple media, and then don't have the time or inclination to return.
                  For your information, employers who post an ad in the expat job channel, get their post deleted becauise it doesn't respect the mandatory requirement, receive a PM from requiring to include a salary range or any missing information from the template DO find the time and inclination to return and rewrite their post. They understand that the forum is a valuable ressource to consider in order to access the expat market.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                    For your information, employers who post an ad in the expat job channel, get their post deleted becauise it doesn't respect the mandatory requirement, receive a PM from requiring to include a salary range or any missing information from the template DO find the time and inclination to return and rewrite their post. They understand that the forum is a valuable ressource to consider in order to access the expat market.
                    It’s unfortunate that Indonesian employers do not seem to place the same value on their own citizens who likely have a good understanding of Western business practices, i.e. Forum members. My view is that employers advertise here because they wish to tap into a pool of more cosmopolitan Indonesian candidates with an appreciation of Western work mores. If that is in fact the case, I would think it would be in employers' interests to give more credence to Western employment criteria.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
                      If that is in fact the case, I would think it would be in employers' interests to give more credence to Western employment criteria.
                      There is no such "western employment criteria" Waarmstrong. US employment ads are VERY different from french one for example. You will almost never see the salary appearing in a french ad and I wouldn't surprise to find out that the same apply in other european countries (though I did not check).

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                      • #12
                        Yes, I should narrow my comment from Western to American ad criteria. Perhaps there are other ad ques that denote salary range in other countries. Truth is, I do not really know. From my somewhat narrowed perspective, I believe it is best for both employers and candidates, and for the efficiency and effectiveness sake, that ads be explicit and transparent, including a reference to, at least, a salary range.

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                        • #13
                          As an Indonesian employee, if I were looking for a new job, I would like to know how much they could offer.

                          I wont wasting my time to apply for a job that has lower than what I got now.
                          Words can inspire, thoughts can provoke, but only action can get you closer to your dreams.

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