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  • Question: Relevancy with thread

    Dear Moderators,

    Hihihi,

    Sorry I am a bit confused with what happened to me yesterday.

    In the thread about "being gay in a muslim world", I posted a question/discussion regarding whether transgenders are included in the term of "gay" {I took the example of Dorce, an Indonesian actress who is a transgender} which is addressed appropriately by the thread setter, giving me an input of not being to rigid or narrow in seeing sexuality and gender.

    However, a moderator protested that my question was not related to the topic and threatened to delete my posts (which I know is the right of any moderator to keep a thread healthy).

    My question is, how to understand whether a question is related or not? I mean, I thought talking about the "boundary of gay" in the thread is related, since the thread is about "being gay". And the example I took, Dorce, legitimized that it was still in the "muslim world" {Dorce is a muslim, and she is an Indonesian citizen}.

    So is it irrelevant to talk about the theory of sexuality, etc, when talking about "being gay in a muslim world" {I am just taking one example}.

    Hihihi, I need your guidance. Thank you.

    Vivian
    Missing Hombre

  • #2
    Vivian - thank you for raising this. The thread was "Being Gay in the Muslim world". The three posts which I highlighted as potentially being off-topic (one only of which was yours) made no mention of Islam, rather solely discussed issues of sexuality. When I asked you whether you were asking in order to establish Islam's attitude to such sexualities, you denied that that was your intention and failed to indicate any further connection with "Being Gay in the Muslim world".

    In general one can't give precise advice on whether what you intend to post is off-topic or not - it's a matter of judgement. Sometimes it's blindingly obvious, sometimes it's very much a matter of opinion. As I indicated elsewhere moderators will be less concerned with posts in threads that are light-hearted, whimsical etc. We will be more critical where a poster seeks legal or other vital information, or where a thoughtful, informed discussion is being enjoyed and may be derailed by posts that have little or no obvious relevance to the topic at hand. This is not to say that you shouldn't post - just that maybe you might consider whether the intended post is better as a new thread starter.

    Note that I have yet to clean that thread. Also note that I'm won't to engage in any further debate on this.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by john madden View Post
      Vivian - thank you for raising this. The thread was "Being Gay in the Muslim world". The three posts which I highlighted as potentially being off-topic (one only of which was yours) made no mention of Islam, rather solely discussed issues of sexuality. When I asked you whether you were asking in order to establish Islam's attitude to such sexualities, you denied that that was your intention and failed to indicate any further connection with "Being Gay in the Muslim world".

      In general one can't give precise advice on whether what you intend to post is off-topic or not - it's a matter of judgement. Sometimes it's blindingly obvious, sometimes it's very much a matter of opinion. As I indicated elsewhere moderators will be less concerned with posts in threads that are light-hearted, whimsical etc. We will be more critical where a poster seeks legal or other vital information, or where a thoughtful, informed discussion is being enjoyed and may be derailed by posts that have little or no obvious relevance to the topic at hand. This is not to say that you shouldn't post - just that maybe you might consider whether the intended post is better as a new thread starter.

      Note that I have yet to clean that thread. Also note that I'm won't to engage in any further debate on this.
      Hihihi, you're welcome.

      That's why I want to ask that question, since I and one other poster think that my question is relevant. One cannot talk about "being gay in a muslim world" without really get into grasp of what is meant by "gay". Don't discussions also should talk about the theory/definition?

      I believe with the kind of policy you are making, we should have lost around 50% of the posts, due to 'irrelevancy'. {and I may lose around 80% of my posts, I can't help it, hihihi...}

      Kisses,
      Vivian

      P.S.
      You may notice I just commented on Hombre's post about "governmental spending": "belanja pegawai", which Hombre said to consist of salaries, and mentioning the need to "help the people with those posts".

      My comment may seem to be irrelevant for you, stating that Hombre can't blame us (Indonesia) for following Keynes. Hihihi.

      It may seem irrelevant, but what I mean is, Keynes is one of the economists who promoted Governmental actions against economic recession by creating jobs.

      Should I always explain myself like that?... that's very hard...being me... :P

      But if you want to delete the post, you are more than welcome. Talking about Keynes is not related to Indonesian Governmental Expenditure...


      P.S.S.
      I don't mind you deleting my other posts in other thread about missionary opportunity: because later I read that the thread setter mentioning that he only wanted to ask about practical things. I did talk more about the danger of spreading Christianity to Muslims in Indonesia (FPI and such), and then about Indonesian religion in general, which although related to 'missionary', may not be what the thread setter wanted by opening the thread.
      Last edited by Vivian Handstrong; 14-11-12, 13:24. Reason: Adding something
      Missing Hombre

      Comment


      • #4
        I am not tuned into OP's intention with the particular thread of which you speak, so I am not in a position to second guess. Some threads are narrow in focus, others not. Seems there is much room for difference of opinion about what is or is not relevant. I would also point out that when a thread is started to gain an answer to a specific question and respondents provide the answer early on, it does not matter much if the thread meanders after than.

        Someone has to make the call as to when meandering is inappropriate, as well as when a particular post is wide enough of the OP's intend focus to justify its removal. When one signs on the the Forum, you are essentially agreeing that that "someone" is the moderator team.

        It is certainly easy to take umbrage with a deletion for lack of relevance, but its really just housekeeping, or perhaps better said as house-organizing. The point being that if a contribution is judged off the mark on a particular thread, its almost an invitation to start a new thread with the deleted comment as the initial post. I suggest you do that with your transgender post.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
          I am not tuned into OP's intention with the particular thread of which you speak, so I am not in a position to second guess. Some threads are narrow in focus, others not. Seems there is much room for difference of opinion about what is or is not relevant. I would also point out that when a thread is started to gain an answer to a specific question and respondents provide the answer early on, it does not matter much if the thread meanders after than.

          Someone has to make the call as to when meandering is inappropriate, as well as when a particular post is wide enough of the OP's intend focus to justify its removal. When one signs on the the Forum, you are essentially agreeing that that "someone" is the moderator team.

          It is certainly easy to take umbrage with a deletion for lack of relevance, but its really just housekeeping, or perhaps better said as house-organizing. The point being that if a contribution is judged off the mark on a particular thread, its almost an invitation to start a new thread with the deleted comment as the initial post. I suggest you do that with your transgender post.
          Hihih, darling Waamstrong, I ask the transgender in the relationship with 'gay' or being gay, and taking the example of Dorce...

          If I open again the thread with similar post: "being transgenders in the muslim world", isn't it redundant, since I don't have a lot to say, unlike the Thread Setter. Beside, the common term for gay in discussion is: GLBT or Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgenders...

          Just that. I just want to know, because twice the moderator 'forced' me to change my question into his question, and I gets me more confused than ever.

          Thank you for your explanation about cleaning. I understand that, even mention that if the real cleaning is done based on the policy of the above-mentioned moderator, our posts will only be around 50% (or less). Which may be good for the site capacity...hihihi...

          Vivian
          Missing Hombre

          Comment


          • #6
            So what? If redundancy were a disqualifier, 1/2 the Forum would go away. I see your point, but why bother pissing into the wind?

            Comment


            • #7
              Honey _____ (I forget what variation of Honey you wished to be called), I think the moderators here intend to keep this forum's debates to a minimum. It seems to me (thoroughly my opinion, not necessarily their policy) that they want to make this forum appealing for users seeking information about lifestyle, legal issues, and general "how to get ______" in Indonesia type threads. The politics and religion threads are, naturally, hot button issues and I am guessing they figure there are other, better forums for that sort of thing if you want to get deeply tangential

              I've never moderated a forum, but I can imagine that it's difficult work keeping it from being "lawless". It's largely a thankless job, I think, and it's necessary to keep it from falling into the hands of armies of trolls. It has to have some kind of... direction. So, think about the deletions not as deletions but as... your sacrifice for the good of the forum. I should know, I often have my posts deleted. :P I cared a bit at first, but then I figured it really wasn't that big of a deal. Let's be honest with ourselves, most posts don't need to remain up for posterity. We generally aren't going to be changing many minds, we're posting mostly to gratify ourselves and make friends in the mutual admiration society.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
                So what? If redundancy were a disqualifier, 1/2 the Forum would go away. I see your point, but why bother pissing into the wind?
                Hihihi, darling Waamstrong - I just wished... that ... there will be a rather 'formal' definition or example of what is relevant or irrelevant, instead of basing it on personal judgments, especially in moderation.

                Do I expect too much? hihihi.
                Missing Hombre

                Comment


                • #9
                  As John Madden highlighted, one has also to check first in what channel a thread is located and consider the aim of our forum.

                  In informative channels ("laws, visas, money matters & documents", "health, medical, and healthy living", "pet and animals"...etc off topic post should not be tolerated, even when a question is already answered. If one starts to mix debate about religion and immigration or pets issues for example, it starts to mess up with the aim of this forum. Same applies for "noobie's nook" which is a channel for new users to introduce themselves to the forum and not to debate their choice, personality, color of hair, eating habits or whatever.

                  We've recently started our own discussion about religion in our moderation channel, the place it has in this forum, the image it gives to this forum and a few other stuff such as the complaints we receive concerning these posts when they start to mess up threads which have little or no relevance to the OP or when they end up in bickerings and resentment, which is unfortunately not rare. This forum has certainly not been created and is not maintained to serve for a crusade or jihad for or against any relion or lack of. Those who think that it could be a tribune for it are invited to reconsider their position and consider creating their own blog.

                  The forum has to be appealing for people of all faith and confession and this is something that we moderators should keep in mind. It's about its sustainability. It's out of question that anyone feels ridiculed in his/her faith (or lack of faith). The community needs the contributions of anyone and moderators have this n mind when they assess a post/string of posts. We won't reach our goals with only expats or only indonesian contributing, we won't reach our goal with only english native or non native speakers, we won't reach our goal if we discourage people of any faith to participate. I guess that my message is clear enough concerning religion discussions. They will have to be held in the proper channel ("Politics & current events" seems OK to me for "heavy" topics) and participants will have to strictly conform to our Posting Guidelines, avoiding bickerings and/or any form of bullying.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                    Honey _____ (I forget what variation of Honey you wished to be called), I think the moderators here intend to keep this forum's debates to a minimum. It seems to me (thoroughly my opinion, not necessarily their policy) that they want to make this forum appealing for users seeking information about lifestyle, legal issues, and general "how to get ______" in Indonesia type threads. The politics and religion threads are, naturally, hot button issues and I am guessing they figure there are other, better forums for that sort of thing if you want to get deeply tangential

                    I've never moderated a forum, but I can imagine that it's difficult work keeping it from being "lawless". It's largely a thankless job, I think, and it's necessary to keep it from falling into the hands of armies of trolls. It has to have some kind of... direction. So, think about the deletions not as deletions but as... your sacrifice for the good of the forum. I should know, I often have my posts deleted. :P I cared a bit at first, but then I figured it really wasn't that big of a deal. Let's be honest with ourselves, most posts don't need to remain up for posterity. We generally aren't going to be changing many minds, we're posting mostly to gratify ourselves and make friends in the mutual admiration society.
                    Honeypuff darling, how can you forget me... (weeping now, hihihi). I said you can call me Honey Moon, since you can't call me Honey Bunny.

                    Darling, I only asked whether transgender is considered gay or not, since they have changed the gender... I don't see how it will result in bloodbath... :P

                    I understand that some political discussions may lead to deletion (and I didn't protest the ones deleted before), but I just need a certain guideline...you know I am not a native speaker and with my education, I need more precise guideline instead of a subjective valuation,... hihihi.
                    Missing Hombre

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                      As John Madden highlighted, one has also to check first in what channel a thread is located and consider the aim of our forum.

                      In informative channels ("laws, visas, money matters & documents", "health, medical, and healthy living", "pet and animals"...etc off topic post should not be tolerated, even when a question is already answered. If one starts to mix debate about religion and immigration or pets issues for example, it starts to mess up with the aim of this forum. Same applies for "noobie's nook" which is a channel for new users to introduce themselves to the forum and not to debate their choice, personality, color of hair, eating habits or whatever.

                      We've recently started our own discussion about religion in our moderation channel, the place it has in this forum, the image it gives to this forum and a few other stuff such as the complaints we receive concerning these posts when they start to mess up threads which have little or no relevance to the OP or when they end up in bickerings and resentment, which is unfortunately not rare. This forum has certainly not been created and is not maintained to serve for a crusade or jihad for or against any relion or lack of. Those who think that it could be a tribune for it are invited to reconsider their position and consider creating their own blog.

                      The forum has to be appealing for people of all faith and confession and this is something that we moderators should keep in mind. It's about its sustainability. It's out of question that anyone feels ridiculed in his/her faith (or lack of faith). The community needs the contributions of anyone and moderators have this n mind when they assess a post/string of posts. We won't reach our goals with only expats or only indonesian contributing, we won't reach our goal with only english native or non native speakers, we won't reach our goal if we discourage people of any faith to participate. I guess that my message is clear enough concerning religion discussions. They will have to be held in the proper channel ("Politics & current events" seems OK to me for "heavy" topics) and participants will have to strictly conform to our Posting Guidelines, avoiding bickerings and/or any form of bullying.
                      Darling Atlantis,

                      This is the thread
                      http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...m-world/page18

                      It is in the expat chat, and at the time I didn't even discuss about religion, hihihi.

                      I asked whether transgenders like Dorce, after changing her gender, can be seen still as a gay or not. And the reason of the threat of deletion is not because of any religion mumbo jumbo discussion that I was making. I didn't complain about the deletion of my other posts. It's just that the moderator mentioned that my question is irrelevant that I tried to know the reason why my post is deemed to be irrelevant.

                      In my opinion, darling, when we talk about 'being gay', and one asked the boundary of gay and relating it to transgender case, I see it more as an extension of the topic, but there's still relevancy with the topic, especially considering the case I brought was the case of an famous Indonesian transgender. Opening a new thread and asking similar question with the change of 'gay' and 'transgender' in my opinion, is not an option before we discuss whether they are one and the same. My other argument lies in the fact that the discussion about the community is always addressed as GLBT community.

                      The question itself has been justly and aptly addressed by the opening poster, of which I am satisfied with the answer (and be reminded of my narrow-mindedness).

                      But I still need a guideline to understand why a post is relevant and why a post is not relevant to avoid the same thing happen in the future (if there's a future, hihihi).
                      Missing Hombre

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you feel that strongly about something that's not directly relevant to the thread, you can always start a new thread. You'd spend less effort than writing several 300-word posts arguing about it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Injun View Post
                          If you feel that strongly about something that's not directly relevant to the thread, you can always start a new thread. You'd spend less effort than writing several 300-word posts arguing about it.
                          Darling Injun, it's not about starting a thread. All of us can make 100 threads in a day, if we spend our time. What I need is a guideline on the relevancy of our posts, because without that guideline, I may face the same problems again and again...

                          By the way, I am starting a thread here, isn't it? hihihi.

                          Have a nice day...darling!
                          Missing Hombre

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I wasn't answering specifically to you Vivian. I think that JM's answer was to the point. I was addressing the point about off topic posts and the place and importance of posts discussing religion in our forum.

                            An excerpt of our posting Guidelines:

                            [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]The committee that runs this site (and volunteers hundreds of hours each year) believe that the purpose of this forum is to assist expats in answering questions not already be answered in the articles on the Expat website.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                            [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]While acknowledging that not all portions of the expat experience in Indonesia will be positive, we see our role as helping to make the experience as positive as possible for all concerned and assisting in a SUCCESSFUL transition to living in Indonesia. To this end, we maintain and administrate this forum.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                            [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]To this end, personal discretion is exercised when dealing with reported and posted material. Moderation may involve editing offensive words from posts, rather than deletion or bans. All concerns are balanced against our stated goal for the forum.

                            [/FONT][/COLOR]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                              I wasn't answering specifically to you Vivian. I think that JM's answer was to the point. I was addressing the point about off topic posts and the place and importance of posts discussing religion in our forum.

                              An excerpt of our posting Guidelines:

                              [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]The committee that runs this site (and volunteers hundreds of hours each year) believe that the purpose of this forum is to assist expats in answering questions not already be answered in the articles on the Expat website.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                              [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]While acknowledging that not all portions of the expat experience in Indonesia will be positive, we see our role as helping to make the experience as positive as possible for all concerned and assisting in a SUCCESSFUL transition to living in Indonesia. To this end, we maintain and administrate this forum.[/FONT][/COLOR]
                              [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]To this end, personal discretion is exercised when dealing with reported and posted material. Moderation may involve editing offensive words from posts, rather than deletion or bans. All concerns are balanced against our stated goal for the forum.

                              [/FONT][/COLOR]
                              So darling, are you intending to say that my post in the thread was irrelevant?
                              Missing Hombre

                              Comment

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