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why indo woman are snob while they live in abroad?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by marcus View Post


    No . A bad story will not become good just by changing the title .
    It is not a story, but a theory.

    Comment


    • #17
      Using a bunch of peg holes with different shapes in which to slot people to legitimize cultural and ethnic stereo-typing I don't find particularly persuasive.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
        Using a bunch of peg holes with different shapes in which to slot people to legitimize cultural and ethnic stereo-typing I don't find particularly persuasive.
        I believe my post #12 is misunderstood. It was meant to understand why people like LadyT and tel522 think what they think. I believe understanding is the first thing to do to develop ourself to understand the world we live in. Understanding thoughts, feelings and eventually actions, our own and others, will benefit us and I hope others. That means also understanding the things we don't like. Even if they appall us.

        In my post I never mention I agree with LadyT and tel522. My post definitely wasn't meant to persuade people to legitimize culture and ethnic stereo-typing. In my post I never wrote people should legitimize culture and ethnic stereo-typing, nor that I condone or will condone it.

        My first (on topic) sentence from my post #12 was that I mostly agree with marcus.

        I kinda agree with marcus about everyone is different and you can't say a whole nation or continent is the same

        (It seems I can't qoute different post here.... )

        What I missed in marcus's posts is that there are definitely people in Indonesia, Asia (or any other part of the world for that matter) that do exactly what LadyT and tel522 say. Hence I understand them, which doesn't mean I agree. I have those kind of people in my social circles myself. Luckily not many, but they are there. If you don't have those kind of people in your social circles, count your self very lucky and be very happy. You probably have perfect people surrounding you.

        When I link 1, 2 and 3 together, with 1 the title of this thread, 2 the common value stereo-typing / discrimination is bad and 3 my post, I also understand your reaction. I want to say that although people doesn't agree for 100%, it doesn't mean they are on the opposite side.

        The MBTI theory is a legit personality theory which serve me very well profiling people in work and personal relations. My explanation in #post 12 is an application of that theory, trying to explain the situation. You can also explain it with social psychology, human development or any theory which is applicable.

        I recommend reading up on the MBTI personality theory. When you understand it well enough, a whole new world will open with a lot more possibilities. If a new world doesn't open for you, maybe after reading you will understand yourself better.

        If you have the time and want to learn something new about yourself and other people:

        read this first:
        http://www.personalitypage.com

        then this:
        http://www.personalitypage.com/html/info.html

        Find who you are here:
        http://www.personalitypage.com/html/portraits.html

        See how you can grow here:
        http://www.personalitypage.com/html/personal.html

        Happy growing to all.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by OpenSolutions View Post
          ... I recommend reading up on the MBTI personality theory. When you understand it well enough, a whole new world will open with a lot more possibilities. If a new world doesn't open for you, maybe after reading you will understand yourself better...

          Could you give us a good example of the benefit you yourself got from this theory ?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by marcus View Post


            Could you give us a good example of the benefit you yourself got from this theory ?

            We are going off Topic, but I would like to answer your question.
            I will give an example in a personal situation. I hope people can relate more.

            Me and my mom, we love each other. We will do anything for the other. I really don't want to loose her and I am sure she doesn't want to loose me either. There is 1 problem between my mom and me. We really can't communicate well. When we talk about something interesting for both or just one of us, the conversation takes a turn which will make us both crazy. Although I see reason in what she thinks, her reasoning doesn't make any sense to me and I see that the reasons / values she gives, are always someone else's. It really annoys me and I didn't understand why we can't communicate well.

            Until I understood my self better and later on my mom.

            A little about me:
            I am a person who has the need to learn. I ask questions about what a lot of people consider doesn't matter or doesn't see the relationship(s) between different aspects. I have the need to understand. I am not a leader, but I also don't follow well. I don't need anyone telling me what and how to do things. I usually don't give clear instructions to people about what to do. I rather make them understand what is required and let people choose what is best for them to do.
            I am a male INFJ with some charateristics from INTP, INTJ, ENTP, and ENFJ with mostly Dutch values.

            A little about my mom:
            My mom is a strong, no nonsense person with a kind heart. My mom is a strong leader and if she isn't in a leadership role, she will be a good follower. She will uphold traditions. Social status is important to her. She is great with routine. She will do something over and over again without complaining or getting tired. My mom doesn't learn new things quickly, but when learned, she will do it over and over again.
            My mom is a female ESFJ with mostly Indonesian values. Yes, the same personality which I was talking about in post 12. FYI, because my mom is an ESFJ, I can spot other ESFJ's real quick in life after knowing the values from that specific area.

            After reading a little about me and my mom, I hope it's clear where the problem is.
            Our strengths are different. Mine is understanding and my mom is routine. Also my mom is a leader and wants to lead and me not such a good follower makes trouble.

            Our interaction.
            When my mom tells about something, my nature will want to ask questions to understand her more. My mom, will take it like I don't believe her and gets irritated by the question. When my mom ask me something to do, I will give her options and try to explain everything. Which makes her crazy because she doesn't understand most of what I am saying and will have the feeling that I don't want to help her or even that I am against her.

            By understanding the MBTI theory it helps me to better know my self and other people, in this example my mom. It is obvious to me now how I should act/react to my mom to make her happy. When I want to make her happy, I just need to stop asking questions and explaining things. Which is a lot harder than it sounds because it goes against my nature.

            It is nearly impossible to make a good profile from post/people on the internet, but considering your question you look more like me than my mom. Waarmstrong on the other hand looks a lot more like my mom (post 17). 1 sentence to say someone is all wrong. Me.. my post are freakishly long, trying to explain stuff which probably most people don't take the time to read and understand well. My personality is just 0,5% of the world population. Can you imaging what my life in real life looks like?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by OpenSolutions View Post
              (1) ... considering your question you look more like me than my mom. Waarmstrong on the other hand looks a lot more like my mom (post 17). 1 sentence to say someone is all wrong.

              (2) Me.. my post are freakishly long, trying to explain stuff which probably most people don't take the time to read and understand well.

              (3) My personality is just 0,5% of the world population. Can you imaging what my life in real life looks like?

              First let me tell you that I am happy that the theory helped you to treat your mother better .

              (1) It seems that this is a bad consequence of the theory you follow . You tend to apply the theory even not knowing other people enough (by the way , I don't know anyone who I could "classify" according to this theory , except me myself and my mother , maybe - but our relationship is relatively good already) .

              (2) Yes , too long to me . If you know , why don't you try to change a little ? (although there may be people who like your style)

              (3) Without knowing anything about this theory (and I will not read it because although I am curious , I want to learn only things that I feel they will be important to me or to others in this Forum) I also know that I am also very different from the majority of the people .

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by marcus View Post


                First let me tell you that I am happy that the theory helped you to treat your mother better .

                (1) You tend to apply the theory even not knowing other people enough

                1.1 (by the way , I don't know anyone who I could "classify" according to this theory , except me myself and my mother , maybe - but our relationship is relatively good already) .

                (2) Yes , too long to me . If you know , why don't you try to change a little ? (although there may be people who like your style)

                (3) Without knowing anything about this theory (and I will not read it because although I am curious , I want to learn only things that I feel they will be important to me or to others in this Forum) I also know that I am also very different from the majority of the people .

                1. You get it the other way around. You don't apply the theory after you get to know someone very well. You apply the theory to get to know someone and understand them.

                If we should meet, I can probably get a good profile from you within 10 to 30 minutes. Unless you are very introverted in real life. It will cost me a lot more time. This ability helps me when working with (new) people. As manager you can use your people strengths for certain task without having to deal with their weaknesses. A lot of HR managers follow courses about the MBTI theory because they have to deal/understand people. Salesman would have huge benefits by understanding people. Everyone who interact with other people will benefit by understanding people, which means everyone will benefit from it.

                1.1 You can't classify people because you don't understand the theory yet.

                2. It's in my nature, but how do you know I haven't changed yet?

                3. Good to hear you know yourself. Maybe after reading the theory you might learn something new about yourself.



                Comment


                • #23
                  The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator as a useful measure of personality is, simply put, popularized quackery.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by waarmstrong View Post
                    The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator as a useful measure of personality is, simply put, popularized quackery.
                    We all come in different SHAPES and SIZES. We all have STRENGTHS and weaknesses. What's right for one person may not be right for another.

                    There are things that are important to me, that you don't care about at all! And sometimes your behavior doesn't make any sense to me, but I want for us to understand each other, and communicate well, because we live together in the same world.

                    I know I can't expect you to want the same things that I want. We are not the same person, so we will not always see things the same way. I have my own Thoughts and my own Ideas, that may or may not fit into your vision of who I should be.

                    By learning more about my own Personality, and about other Personality Types, I can come to a better understanding of my strengths and weaknesses. I can improve my interpersonal relationships, realign my expectations towards others, and gain a better self-knowledge that will help me define and achieve goals.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator might be amusing as a party activity, but as a tool for understanding personality, it is not reliable.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by LadyT View Post
                        i met some indo women who dating/marry to bule are snob.when i was in australia,they never stop to showing off what their spouse have. proudly that their children cant speak indonesian, even very proud that the children looks more bule than asian.
                        Interesting discussion from a simple observation.

                        Basically it's not true. The Indonesian women living in Australia are not snobs, you just fell in with the wrong crowd

                        One person mentioned a "few" mixed marriage groups. Well it is a gathering of ladies, most of whom are unemployed and their husbands earn on average around 20 times the minimum wage, soo, yes these things happen.

                        Is "showing off" more common among Asians. I'm not sure about that, but there is a lot of new money in Asia. And the gap between the rich and the poor is quite pronounced. I remember reading of one theory that in countries where the population in general are used to experiencing poverty, outward displays of wealth are done in an effort to make you feel secure, i.e. "Now I have become somebody, now I am safe from poverty". We can see this reflected when we call somebody "poor". If I were to call an Australian, Brit or perhaps even a Yank "poor" they would probably just laugh. That is not a valid insult in these countries, you would just make yourself look like an idiot. Yet in Indonesia calling somebody "poor" often works well as an insult and will get you a reaction, a lot of the time they will feel cut up inside, whether it be true or not.

                        So perhaps their is some merit in that theory.

                        On the other hand perhaps it isn't due to the socio economic culture and history of a nation but it is just "new money" as someone mentioned, perhaps all they new rich are "cheesy" and tasteless. Or as Indonesians say "nora".

                        I don't think so though. I think this term of "new rich" is a snobs way to exclude those who didn't inherit their money.

                        I suggest it is more people who became rich too easily, who didn't really have to work for it. Either through marriage, getting thrown a government contract or just stumbling onto good luck like the lottery, sudden inheritance or a fluke business success. I think these are the people who often end up classless, rude and also... quickly in financial trouble to maintain their new status quo.

                        That too may also be too much of a generalisation. But at least it would be rounding it down a little. What do you think?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The easiest way to spot a snob, at least with a Muslim woman is if she changes her last name to her western husbands name. She ends up with a name like ..Siti Putri "Johnson", or Ayesha Endah "McDonald"..
                          Not only is this the ultimate form of snobbishness and "showing off", but totally Haram and forbidden in Islam. It is a major sin and only jahanaam awaits that person. A Muslim women NEVER changes her last name to her husband's, even if the husband is born of Muslim parents.
                          Naudzubillah

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Saifislam View Post
                            (1) The easiest way to spot a snob, at least with a Muslim woman is if she changes her last name to her western husbands name ...

                            (2) ... It is a major sin and only jahanaam awaits that person ...

                            (1) I don't agree with you based on the fact that each woman has her own motive to take a decision . In my view it is a very bad behavior to generalize things like you did here .

                            In my country (although the majority being Christians) it is very common to have the wife taking the husband family name when they marry . My own mother had her name changed like that (although I guess she didn't think much about it as it was an automatic process -?* not like in Indonesia that one needs to go to Court for that) , and she is not snob at all .

                            (2) Could you give a few references confirming your statement ? I didn't find that in a quick search in the internet .


                            -----------------------------------


                            From https://www.alkhoirot.net/2014/09/ga...bah-nasib.html
                            [... There is no law in Islam for changing name . Therefore, returning to the original law in non-worship cases is permissible as in the fiqh rule which states "The law of origin of all things (which is non-worship) is permissible unless there is a specific argument that forbids it."


                            -----------------------------------


                            From http://www.majalahislami.com/2010/05....5vYFy0QO.dpbs
                            [... Changing someone's name is permissible by the law, either when people are young or after they grow up. Especially if the previous name contains a dispute, there is Shari'a.
                            Then we can find in some narrations that the Prophet - sallallaahu alaihi wa salam - had replaced some of the names of friends who had bad or contained tazkiyah (holy charges) against themselves to better names and in line with the Shari'a even though they were adults ...]
                            Last edited by marcus; 3 days ago.

                            Comment


                            • #29

                              It is not a question of finding this on the internet as every Muslim knows this anyway from when they are young..
                              .
                              There is no question about it amongst the Muslim population.. ask any Muslim.
                              .
                              For for that matter go ask anyone in KUA.

                              ​​​​​​. I can guarantee they will tell you the same thing, regardless if the "wife" ignores Islamic law.
                              .
                              You do not have to agree with me but the fact is it is Haram and also what's known as bid'eh. in no Muslim country does the female change the name to the husband's last name. it does not matter if they do that in Europe or America it is considered bid'eh, and Haram. ..and exactly the reason why women are not allowed to change their last names not even to an different Islamic name.

                              it cannot be changed voluntarily or forced by the husband it's bid'eh.

                              It is specifically forbidden in the hadiths. And a woman doing that to please for Western husband is going against her father and against Islam.

                              https://islamqa.info/en/answers/6241...nd146s-surname







                              It is not permissible for a woman to take her husband?s name or his family name because that is attributing oneself to someone other than one?s father, and imitating the kuffaar from whom this custom was adopted.


                              ​The effects of imitating the west in naming ourselves are many. One of them is the way in which people have got used to omitting the word ibn (son of) or ibnatu (daughter of) between their own names and the name of their fathers. The reason for this is, firstly, because some families have adopted children and given them their surname, so that the adopted child is called Foolaan Foolan [where Foolaan (=So and so) stands for a name] and their real children are called Foolaan ibn Foolaan (So and so the son of So and so). Now in the fourteenth century AH, people have dropped the word ibn or ibnatu which is unacceptable according to linguistics, custom and shareeah. May Allaah help us.

                              Another effect is the habit of women taking their husbands surnames.

                              Originally, the woman is So and so the Daughter of So and so, not So and so the wife of So and so! Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

                              Call them (adopted sons) by (the names of) their fathers, that is more just with Allaah [al-Ahzaab 33:5].

                              As it is in this world, so it will also be in the Hereafter, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

                              On the Day of Resurrection, each betrayer will have a banner raised beside him, and it will be said, this is the betrayer of So and so the son of So and so.

                              (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5709, and Muslim, 3265).

                              Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd (may Allaah preserve him) said: This is one of the beauties of shareeah, because calling a person by his fathers name is more appropriate for knowing who is who and telling people apart. The father is the protector and maintainer of the child and his mother both inside and outside the home. This is why the father mixes with people in the marketplaces and takes risks by travelling to earn a halaal living and strive for their sakes. So the child is given the name of the father, not of the mother who is hidden away and who is one of those whom Allaah commanded (interpretation of the meaning):

                              And stay in your houses [al-Ahzaab 33:33]

                              (Tasmiyat al-Mawlood, 30, 31).

                              On the basis of the above, there is no blood tie between the husband and wife, so how can she take his surname as if she is part of the same lineage? Moreover, she may get divorced, or her husband may die, and she may marry another man. Will she keep changing her surname every time she marries another man? Furthermore, there are rulings attached to her being named after her father, which have to do with inheritance, spending and who is a mahram, etc. Taking her husbands surname overlooks all that. The husband is named after his own father, and what does she have to do with the lineage of her husbands father? This goes against common sense and true facts. The husband has nothing that makes him better than his wife so that she should take his surname, whilst he takes his fathers name.

                              Hence everyone who has gone against this and taken her husbands name should put matters right. We ask Allaah to put all the affairs of the Muslims right
                              ​​​​​​
                              Al-Bukhaari (3508) and Muslim (61) narrated from Abu Dharr (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ?Any man who knowingly attributes himself to someone other than his father is guilty of kufr. Whoever claims to belong to a people when he has nothing to do with them, let him take his place in Hell.?

                              ?when he has nothing to do with them? means, when he has no lineage among them, as is highlighted in some reports.

                              Based on that, the husband has no right to force his wife to do that, and if he forces her to do it she should not obey him, because it is obedience to a created being which involves disobedience to the Creator. So she should persist in her refusal and explain to him that it is haraam, and look for Islamically acceptable means of establishing her rights from a legal point of view.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by marcus View Post


                                (1) I don't agree with you based on the fact that each woman has her own motive to take a decision . In my view it is a very bad behavior to generalize things like you did here .

                                In my country (although the majority being Christians) it is very common to have the wife taking the husband family name when they marry . My own mother had her name changed like that (although I guess she didn't think much about it as it was an automatic process -?* not like in Indonesia that one needs to go to Court for that) , and she is not snob at all .

                                (2) Could you give a few references confirming your statement ? I didn't find that in a quick search in the internet .


                                -----------------------------------


                                From [URL="https://www.alkhoirot.net/2014/09/ganti-nama-untuk-merubah-nasib.html"]https://w


                                From http://www.majalahislami.com/2010/05....5vYFy0QO.dpbs
                                [... Changing someone's name is permissible by the law, either when people are young or after they grow up. Especially if the previous name contains a dispute, there is Shari'a.
                                Then we can find in some narrations that the Prophet - sallallaahu alaihi wa salam - had replaced some of the names of friends who had bad or contained tazkiyah (holy charges) against themselves to better names and in line with the Shari'a even though they were adults ...]

                                Nothing wrong with changing name...FIRST name that is, which is what this refers to, and is very common among reverts. Also first change is encouraged Especially if the name is contrary to Islam. Only in rare circumstance if a last name is contrary to Islam can it be changed, but certainly not to a non muslim western name, or any name for that matter.

                                A woman cannot change her last name to her husband's last name which is clearly understood by Muslims everywhere. There is no debate about that except for women who wish to commit bid'eh and impress their girlfriends with a western last name. It is Haram, forbidden and they are wrong. Period.

                                Comment

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