Illegal workers, foreign workers, US and Indonesia situation (moved thread)

[Hummingbird.1968]

Originally Posted by nd_eric_77 This part blows my mind. The United States has at least 600,000 documented foreign workers at any given time, but only 40% more people than Indonesia has. That is to say nothing of the 12 million+ undocumented workers. And yet people act as if Indonesia were threatened by < 75,000 documented foreign workers???

Not sure how to quote above correctly. I can say that many of the typically teen jobs over here are filled by undocumented workers or uneducated/documented workers. My husband employed a legal Mexican worker only to find out a couple years later that he paid a street worker money every month to remain legally married to her. I have heard of so many abuses of 'the system' by illegals in the US that it just makes me sick....but 'the system' openly allows it!!!

What about better higher education over there? Has any progress been made in that area? Why don't they invest in higher education so that they don't have to depend on talent from outside the country?

Moderator note: This post, and a few that follow it were dissected from a different thread which became off topic because of it. If you wish to visit the original thread you can find it here:
http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...oreign-Workers

[waarmstrong]

Originally Posted by nd_eric_77 This part blows my mind. The United States has at least 600,000 documented foreign workers at any given time, but only 40% more people than Indonesia has. That is to say nothing of the 12 million+ undocumented workers. And yet people act as if Indonesia were threatened by < 75,000 documented foreign workers???

Not sure how to quote above correctly. I can say that many of the typically teen jobs over here are filled by undocumented workers or uneducated/documented workers. My husband employed a legal Mexican worker only to find out a couple years later that he paid a street worker money every month to remain legally married to her. I have heard of so many abuses of 'the system' by illegals in the US that it just makes me sick....but 'the system' openly allows it!!!

What about better higher education over there? Has any progress been made in that area? Why don't they invest in higher education so that they don't have to depend on talent from outside the country?

There are certainly undocumented immigrants, as well as abusers and scofflaws , but you are mistaken in asserting that the "the system" openly allows abuse.

I am confused about what makes you sick. Is it that illegals are doing menial, unskilled work or that immigrants are doing jobs requiring higher education because the pool of educated Americans is too small?

[Puspawarna]

I can say that many of the typically teen jobs over here are filled by ... uneducated/documented workers.

Like waarmie, I don't get this. You're upset that menial jobs are being done by uneducated people who are legally allowed to do them? Somehow, I am having trouble getting worked up by this apparent travesty.

[Hummingbird.1968]

The worker my husband hired who was paying a prostitute for a sham marriage to appear legal....his girlfriend got appendicitis while pregnant. They went to hospital and then intentionally gave the wrong name, a common Hispanic name, so they could not be tracked down and made to pay. My husband wasn't happy when he heard this bc our taxes pay for this all-too-common B.S. They went to social services to fess up. They were told it was too bad they were legal, there was help for illegals, but not legals.

Just mad that there is clear favoritism towards the undocumented vs the tax payers here in California. Many undocumented children or children of undocumented get a free ride. Like the illegal gardener in my neighborhood whose daughter is getting a free ride to Yale....who pays for this? The taxpayers.

Do I see any teens mowing lawns or washing cars or cleaning/janitorial work, or working fast food? No!!!!

What about ERs shutting down bc illegals were using them for minor ailments and they were losing money? While working at the hospital it was common knowledge that many 'legal' janitorial staff were not really legal.

My friend recently found out he had a different birthday, his mom fudged it so it appeared he was born in the US.

The above is more a commentary about how the U.S. doesn't protect its borders. Maybe it was confusing in my post. 'The system' refers to California.


By higher education over there, I meant over in Indonesia.

[Jaime C]

The worker my husband hired who was paying a prostitute for a sham marriage to appear legal....his girlfriend got appendicitis while pregnant. They went to hospital and then intentionally gave the wrong name, a common Hispanic name, so they could not be tracked down and made to pay. My husband wasn't happy when he heard this bc our taxes pay for this all-too-common B.S. They went to social services to fess up. They were told it was too bad they were legal, there was help for illegals, but not legals.

Just mad that there is clear favoritism towards the undocumented vs the tax payers here in California. Many undocumented children or children of undocumented get a free ride. Like the illegal gardener in my neighborhood whose daughter is getting a free ride to Yale....who pays for this? The taxpayers.

Do I see any teens mowing lawns or washing cars or cleaning/janitorial work, or working fast food? No!!!!

What about ERs shutting down bc illegals were using them for minor ailments and they were losing money?

My friend recently found out he had a different birthday, his mom fudged it so it appeared he was born in the US.

The above is more a commentary about how the U.S. doesn't protect its borders. Maybe it was confusing in my post. 'The system' refers to California.


By higher education over there, I meant over in Indonesia.

I think you're a bit confused. Many people both legal and illegal in the US have not had affordable access to healthcare. Much better to let them die, if they can't afford it?

I'm not familiar with how Yale funds scholarships, but it's very likely that it comes from their billions of dollars in investments.

You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder. Many Indonesians work very hard so their kids can get a college education. Even after a 3-4 year degree, they often only can get a job paying $200-300 per month.

[Puspawarna]

Just mad that there is clear favoritism towards the undocumented vs the tax payers here in California. Many undocumented children or children of undocumented get a free ride. Like the illegal gardener in my neighborhood whose daughter is getting a free ride to Yale....who pays for this? The taxpayers.

Yale is not in California, it is not a public university, and its ability to provide scholarship money rests on its endowment (the majority of which comes from donors) and wise investment strategy. (ETA: missed that JaimeC already made that point.)

Anyway, I am very happy for your gardener's daughter. I hope she makes the most of her opportunity, even if the Tea Party types feel only hatred toward people like her.

[bad_azz]

The worker my husband hired who was paying a prostitute for a sham marriage to appear legal....his girlfriend got appendicitis while pregnant. They went to hospital and then intentionally gave the wrong name, a common Hispanic name, so they could not be tracked down and made to pay. My husband wasn't happy when he heard this bc our taxes pay for this all-too-common B.S. They went to social services to fess up. They were told it was too bad they were legal, there was help for illegals, but not legals.

Just mad that there is clear favoritism towards the undocumented vs the tax payers here in California. Many undocumented children or children of undocumented get a free ride. Like the illegal gardener in my neighborhood whose daughter is getting a free ride to Yale....who pays for this? The taxpayers.

Do I see any teens mowing lawns or washing cars or cleaning/janitorial work, or working fast food? No!!!!

What about ERs shutting down bc illegals were using them for minor ailments and they were losing money? While working at the hospital it was common knowledge that many 'legal' janitorial staff were not really legal.

My friend recently found out he had a different birthday, his mom fudged it so it appeared he was born in the US.

The above is more a commentary about how the U.S. doesn't protect its borders. Maybe it was confusing in my post. 'The system' refers to California.


By higher education over there, I meant over in Indonesia.

I think you're a bit confused. Many people both legal and illegal in the US have not had affordable access to healthcare. Much better to let them die, if they can't afford it?

I'm not familiar with how Yale funds scholarships, but it's very likely that it comes from their billions of dollars in investments.

You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder. Many Indonesians work very hard so their kids can get a college education. Even after a 3-4 year degree, they often only can get a job paying $200-300 per month.

Yes I agree with JC, you are not coming across at all well.

Maybe if you started to be thankful that you are privileged enough to live in a country where there is some provision for people who need education & medical care etc etc then it might take some of the vinegar out of your words.

Why do you think people travel miles away from their homes and their families to live in squalor in another country? Just so that they can steal from the tax payers? More likely that things are so bad and they are desperate to do what they can to help their families.

I will wish one thing on you- that one day YOU get to walk in their shoes and develop some empathy.

[Happyman]

I personally agree with the three posts directly above, but there is another perspective.

My father is a 64 year old semi-skilled factory worker with diminishing prospects for future employment. Before you tell me he should have made different life choices... he has used himself as my cautionary tale since I was a child. He knows, I know, that there were ways for him to avoid this situation. He has experienced wage cuts as a result of cheaper imported (sometimes illegal) labor. This is a personal issue for him, and though he understands the catch-22 situations with importing labor or "exporting jobs", he cannot help but feel betrayed by his government and employers. He knows all of the reasons why this situation is inevitable, but it doesn't change the way it feels to be 64 years old and losing. It is his right and privilege to speak up for and defend his own interests. Why would he do otherwise? His heart may be large, but his wallet is shrinking... there's another set of shoes for everyone to try on.

[Puspawarna]

I personally agree with the three posts directly above, but there is another perspective.

My father is a 64 year old semi-skilled factory worker with diminishing prospects for future employment. Before you tell me he should have made different life choices... he has used himself as my cautionary tale since I was a child. He knows, I know, that there were ways for him to avoid this situation. He has experienced wage cuts as a result of cheaper imported (sometimes illegal) labor. This is a personal issue for him, and though he understands the catch-22 situations with importing labor or "exporting jobs", he cannot help but feel betrayed by his government and employers. He knows all of the reasons why this situation is inevitable, but it doesn't change the way it feels to be 64 years old and losing. It is his right and privilege to speak up for and defend his own interests. Why would he do otherwise? His heart may be large, but his wallet is shrinking... there's another set of shoes for everyone to try on.

Is your dad of the belief that undocumented workers are scum? Does he love to share anecdotes about certain classes of people, carefully identified by ethnicity, who were dishonest, and present this as evidence that all members of that class are cheaters? Does he feel angry and suspicious, certain that his taxes are supporting foreign freeloaders? Would he begrudge an education to the daughter of a non-citizen who had the audacity to apply to and get accepted by Yale even though she'd need a scholarship to attend?

If yes, I think he should go stand in the corner with Hummingbird. If no, he has my sympathy.

[nd_eric_77]

Umm, my point was that Indonesia seems to be going to a great deal of trouble to make life more difficult for a relatively minuscule number of foreign workers. The statistics I cited were simply a way of showing how Indonesia's foreign worker population compares with America's.

[bad_azz]

I think a lot of the xenophobic mindset is perpetuated by the media, and that colours so many people's thinking, the world is changing and yes people from the older generations were sold into the job for life ideals... & then container shipping was invented...
massive 'western' companies folded their business in their traditional locations and moved on... most of them headed out east... sadly this is where the cheap labour is and the workforce in these poorer countries was largely exploited.
However it doesn't hurt us to remember where the wealth of the west came from - largely if not totally off the backs of these exploited peoples.

The time is fast approaching for that debt to be repaid & it will be , in spades, it is inevitable.

The west has priced itself out of the market , so is at the mercy (for want of a better word) of those who truly call the shots.

A great phrase to remember 'one man's gain , is another man's loss'.

& yep Mr Happy- I totally understand your father's situation- but if he is logical he will blame big business and world trade & incompetent governments for his loss, not some poor geezer from the 'wrong' side of the border x..

The love of money is not always a great thing- when the oil runs out it will be fascinating to see how the balance of power shifts globally... I hope I am still alive to witness that one.

[Happyman]

Actually, my father's xenophobia has mellowed over the years. He used to be a horrible racist, but his generation form his location, they though "ni****" was a neutral term, a skin color. I think it often happens that the older generation slowly broadens their minds in response to the incessant arguing and bickering of their own children, who have grown up in a broader world and inherited from it a broader vision of culture, society, race, etc. But, I don't think most people who are upset over immigration problems in the States are angry about individual people, or even that race or culture are the main problems. It is the change. It is hard to accept that the world is not the place that you thought it was, and that you are not prepared to live in it as it really, and currently, is. People who have a problem with immigrants who do not speak English well, for example; I don't think they would be so upset if they themselves could speak Spanish. It is a "why should I have to change?" mentality. "I like the way things are now, and anyone who would change it is a ****** who wants to take something from me". The fact that I am living in Indonesia indicates that I disagree with this, or am a hypocrite. But, I do think it is easy to understand (when you oversimplify it like this).

Sure, It's crazy for un/semi-skilled American workers to expect to able to own two cars, a house and a giant tv, when there are people on the other side of the world willing to do the same job for rice and a bed. A free and open market will surely correct for this, and lower the wealth of our nation, unless we make drastic improvements in productivity. This is a fact, but the other side of it is silly, too. I'm afraid I don't believe it is possible for everyone in the world, all those developing nations off of whom's backs we have been prospering, to achieve this standard of living, either. We would ruin the world for every person to have a car and large screen TV, a laptop and a pc, to be disposed of in five years. America's expectations must come down, and surely the developing world is due to rise, but I hope we can learn to be more reasonable, as humans, in what we expect to own, and how hard we expect to work to get it, or there are dark times ahead for future generations.

[Jaime C]

I grew up in Arizona, in the midst of a mostly poor, Hispanic neighborhood. The majority of the neighborhood were hard working, friendly, and good people. I believe most were longtime legal residents, but I'm sure some were not in the country legally. It never bothered me.

As a 12 year old kid, on Christmas break, I went with them in the fields at 6am to the onion fields, to pick green onions. Cold, and paid by the piece, it wasn't fun in the least. Yet they helped me, and were nice, too. I made only $10 a day, in the late 70's, but it's a memory that still sticks with me.

The current problems with drug mules from Mexico are horrible. I'm hoping that the marijuana legalization spreads, so that the money stays in America. Less violence, and less people incarcerated in expensive prisons.

A temporary worker program in the US is what's needed. A rational one where people could work for 6-12 months at a time, pay taxes, and leave when they're done.

[Happyman]

Legal status in exchange for paying taxes and complying with local laws... seems fair. It's the deal the rest of us (locals) got.

[Nimbus]

The worker my husband hired who was paying a prostitute for a sham marriage to appear legal....his girlfriend got appendicitis while pregnant. They went to hospital and then intentionally gave the wrong name, a common Hispanic name, so they could not be tracked down and made to pay. My husband wasn't happy when he heard this bc our taxes pay for this all-too-common B.S. They went to social services to fess up. They were told it was too bad they were legal, there was help for illegals, but not legals.

Just mad that there is clear favoritism towards the undocumented vs the tax payers here in California. Many undocumented children or children of undocumented get a free ride. Like the illegal gardener in my neighborhood whose daughter is getting a free ride to Yale....who pays for this? The taxpayers.

This is a common myth perpetuated by anti-immigrants, that the government actually favors unauthorized aliens than citizens. The most quoted 'fact' is that it's easier for them to get gov't aid than citizens, which is not true.

In the case of food stamps many people argues that it's easier for undocumented families to get assistance. Factually it's easier for a family with (citizen) children to get aid. Food stamps are given to satisfy the caloric need of the parents and the child, because they know (based on research) that giving just enough food for the child is not working, as nobody is going to feed just the child while leaving herself hungry. Food is shared in the family, that's an undeniable fact. If the children are not born in USA, they don't qualify for food stamps.

There's a program called WIC (Women, Infants, and Children) that provides baby food, formula milk, and basic food to nursing mothers. This program benefits all low-income women, infants, and children in USA regardless of nationality. Only a special kind of hateful person is against feeding babies, toddlers, and nursing mothers.

When it comes to medical care the law requires hospitals to not turn away people with emergency medical need, regardless of ability to pay. Frankly anybody who thinks hospitals in the richest country in the world should be able to deny emergency care based on the patient's lack of money or insurance is nuts. It is easier for an undocumented to get away from paying the hospital bill precisely because they are not allowed to get social security number and ID. Citizens and authorized immigrants can't get away from getting the bill because the hospital asks for social security number and ID.

Health care is a mess in USA. Some people are against government involvement in health care out of principle, yet in the emergency room they begrudge the gov't for not taking care of the bill. The problem is not immigrants, it's the current state of health care in the country.

About the immigrant kid who went to Yale:
1. If she was born in USA, according to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution as affirmed by a Supreme Court decision in the Wong Kim Ark case, she is just as American as you are, and therefore she is entitled to all the rights and privileges of being a citizen of the United States.
2. Yale is a private university not funded by taxpayers, your tax money doesn't pay for her Ivy League education.

Do I see any teens mowing lawns or washing cars or cleaning/janitorial work, or working fast food? No!!!!

Nobody's preventing teens to do this kind of work, it's just that the stagnant minimum wage has made the jobs less attractive. My neighbor's teen worked at a strip mall for one of those fancy clothing stores. The place is air-conditioned and the crowd is cool. I see many more of them working the cashiers at a local supermarket.

What about ERs shutting down bc illegals were using them for minor ailments and they were losing money? While working at the hospital it was common knowledge that many 'legal' janitorial staff were not really legal.

See my comment on health care above.

My friend recently found out he had a different birthday, his mom fudged it so it appeared he was born in the US.

You either have a U.S. birth certificate or you don't. You're either born in the USA or elsewhere. Birth dates don't matter.

The above is more a commentary about how the U.S. doesn't protect its borders.

The border is about as secure as it can be, without turning it into a Berlin wall. Then again some people actually want the American version of the Berlin wall. The border is protected enough that it has indirectly caused people to die.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...ntry/13738253/