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  • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
    Ivan, I know you probably didn't mean for that to come out racist and imperialist but... it was totally racist and imperialist. Want to do right by Papua? Stop colonizing, move toward their independence. Respect the indigenous peoples there and their wish to separate from a foreign, Austronesian government.

    Seriously, you invoked MANIFEST DESTINY for this? That's about as colonial as you can get. It was a policy that effectively replaced the natives, it didn't empower or enable them. It caused millions of deaths.

    You don't need to assimilate the locals, you just need to stay home.
    I'm sorry Dan.
    I really didn't mean to colonize or doing something like that.

    What I want to express is that although Papua is a beautiful land, if me or my friends go to open a business there or work there, our friends will say something like
    "Really? Are you sure? " ; "Can you held spear and hunting?" ; "They will kill you" ; "And? you going to marry with one of them?"

    Ridiculous thing like that, it just like going to Papua is unthinkable and not appropriate thing to do.

    I think maybe this stigma makes people lazy (don't want) to work or conduct business at Papua because of this ridiculous stigma.

    Comment


    • Well, how do we fix Injustice?

      Originally posted by ivangautama View Post
      I'm sorry Dan.
      I really didn't mean to colonize or doing something like that.

      What I want to express is that although Papua is a beautiful land, if me or my friends go to open a business there or work there, our friends will say something like
      "Really? Are you sure? " ; "Can you held spear and hunting?" ; "They will kill you" ; "And? you going to marry with one of them?"

      Ridiculous thing like that, it just like going to Papua is unthinkable and not appropriate thing to do.

      I think maybe this stigma makes people lazy (don't want) to work or conduct business at Papua because of this ridiculous stigma.
      Dear Partcipant and all contributors to this thread: In our nations's interest we posted our recent reaction in another thread at his forum with regard to international solution finding for Tanah Papua. We also would like your views on this, thank you and we apologize on beforehand for cross posting of this reply:

      http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...ight=fix+papua


      Setia Djudjur Mesra

      Comment


      • Perhaps you should post your ideas,because from what I read here you disagree with whatever anyone has to say,and to disagree means that what others are saying doesn't align with your ideas,so post your ideas and then let others comment by agreeing or disagreeing with you,

        Comment


        • He is not really into having a proper discussion, he just does a six month propaganda update and generally ignores any discussion.

          But from what i can see on FB he is actual a Papuan so at least thats a positive, nothing worse than a non Papuan propaganda warrior especially when they are non aboriginal/native from an invaded occupied country like, Australia, NZ, USA.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by mick mentawai View Post
            He is not really into having a proper discussion, he just does a six month propaganda update and generally ignores any discussion.

            But from what i can see on FB he is actual a Papuan so at least thats a positive, nothing worse than a non Papuan propaganda warrior especially when they are non aboriginal/native from an invaded occupied country like, Australia, NZ, USA.
            Following your reasoning there would also be nothing worse than an Indonesian propaganda warrior for Palestinians or Rohygnias , especially since Indonesia invaded Paupa and continues to occupy it , and of course Indonesians are not native to Myanmar or Israel . Double trouble ??

            Comment


            • I don't take any interest in those other places you mentioned and know little on the conflicts so sorry i can not comment on those.

              I only know about Indonesian and Australian history and current politics, and i do know Indonesia did not invade Papua it was actually under Dutch control for a long time prior to Indonesia took over, however historically Indonesia's interest in the area at least in the far West end goes back to 1300-1500 period of the Majapahit empire these two things are generally what modern Indonesia borders are based on.

              Its fair to say from a historical perspective Indonesia has more right to occupy West Papua than non aboriginal Australia does to occupy Australia.

              Comment


              • How will Jokowi fix injustice in Washington D.C.?

                Dear Participants,

                For those who are getting educated on the ever since 1961 established West Papua Melanesia nation, we recommend to take notice of our earlier posts on this.
                With the Obama visit to West Papua Melanesia upcoming November, we believe its fair to conclude that panic has struck Jakarta completely. There is no other explanation we could give to this, given the fact that Mr. Jokowi, current president of the most brutal Barbaric Generals regime of the 21st Century, is making his way at the moment to assure the US that there is nothing to hide in West Papua, so why visit?

                For factfinding on the international UN topic of West Papua Melanesia, please see link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xKhVCkA0cc

                For RI's questionable responses on the highest level, please see link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atBtVzBqJ4g

                We may conclude that people who are not responding anymore to our various contributions, have become frontrunners for West Papua Melanesia's political iindependence, thank you all for this!

                Na Kores Na Refo / Insja Allah!

                Setia, Djudjur, Mesra

                Comment


                • Dear participants,

                  With all the suggestions made on this forum on fixing West Papua Melanesia, what is wrong with recognition of reinstating this Pacific nation immediately. As the intend of throwing development money and the intend of infrastructural help to West Papua Melanesia obviously does not have the effect of keeping the world silent on the ongoin genocide and the increasing military opression in this paradise, why is there no Indonesian admittance of colonial occupation and genocide politics?
                  See informative link: https://www.hrw.org/report/2015/11/1...nitoring-papua

                  If even Papuan students in Jakarta are ordered to leave this city because of the fear of being massacred by RI army units operating under the radar, because the police can't handle student criticism? Is this RI state terrorism the Good governance RI stands for? (see background link: http://www.radionz.co.nz/internation...cities-fearful )

                  As recognition of West Papua Melanesia's nation rights are imminent we believe it suits RI well to let us join the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo, please pass this priceless link to your networks;-)

                  http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the...n't-at-rio

                  Are there any suggestions on this forum on how to deal with this recognition and the process of new nation building or do we still have take RI's good intentions of guidance on this?
                  Below footage is just a first phase, a general road map thinking (instead of looking away, like Dutch foreign policy who are still looking away on the 1962 New York Agreement), is highly appreciated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhxFMuoupVs

                  Na Kores Na Refo / Insja Allah!

                  Setia, Djudjur, Mesra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pimpin View Post
                    No we can't. We aren't evolved enough. Much easier to whine about it. We need the mods to help us feel better.
                    Dear all good to see you again!
                    We certainly need closure on this topic. Not mentioning the valuable comments to our earlier posts on this forum and with recent developments in below link, is there any concrete suggestion on helping the NKRI to get this issue from the table? In other words to rephrase the subject topic: "Ok, when do we fix Papua?"

                    See informative links: http://www.thejakartapost.com/academ...-on-papua.html

                    and:
                    http://www.radionz.co.nz/internation...teurs-in-papua

                    We are welcoming any comment, thank you.

                    Setia,Djudjur, Mesra

                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sun Tzu's “Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kool_keith View Post

                      Following your reasoning there would also be nothing worse than an Indonesian propaganda warrior for Palestinians or Rohygnias , especially since Indonesia invaded Paupa and continues to occupy it , and of course Indonesians are not native to Myanmar or Israel . Double trouble ??
                      Dear all,

                      So what's in for discussion for this topic? Lets leave future tribunal topics for later discussion. As we are getting educated here it all starts with Wikipedia recognition of the Melanesian nation rights of West Papua: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melane...pearhead_Group

                      As political recognition of West Papua Melanesia is imminent we congratulate President elect Mr. Donald J. Trump on the Presidency, we believe with this dealmaking Leader of the Free World, West Papua Melanesia might be in for a change after 54 years of brutal occupation by the Barbaric TNI killers backed up by an establishment of US politicians. So...new establishment, new chances? We welcome this appreciated Forum comments on the West Papuan nation rights. Furthermore we don't think this discussion is too early, more over 54 years too late..

                      Also Jokowi's latest efforts do not sound convincing, we would like to have the Forum's comments on the fact if RI is really interested in developing our nation or are is this merely window dressing: http://jakartaglobe.id/multimedia/fa...gress-papua-2/

                      As our nation has been handed over in 1962 to RI in a US sponsored deal, now RI is on the brink of destroying West Papua Melanesia totally according to this link - please note the hilarious "tiger"remark rhetoric as RI has never seriously challenged foreign powers of the West Papua territory (one could mention RI bumping into the Dutch administrator back in the day, and gotten defeated instantly): http://www.radionz.co.nz/internation...ckwards,-ulmwp

                      Please see for devastating reporting on RI's debacle on West Papua : https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...cost-indonesia

                      Again we are welcoming any comment, thank you.

                      Setia,Djudjur, Mesra

                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sun Tzu's “Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across.”




                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Nimbus View Post
                        Problem 1
                        Who has it: Papuans
                        What is it: Lack of control in Papua's governance, violence
                        When: Since beginning of Dutch rule until today
                        Why: Dominant and corrupt central gov't
                        How: By military force and intellectual dominance

                        Problem 2
                        Who has it: Non-Papuan Indonesians
                        What is it: Separatism, violence
                        When: Since Dutch handover of Papua
                        Why: Dissaffected Papuans
                        How: By demonstrations and force

                        Solution for problem 1 is a better Indonesian government and better access to quality education. Coincidentally ALL Indonesians want those very same things. Solving this problem may or may not eliminate problem 2.

                        The only permanent solution for problem 2 is even higher dominance through increased population of non-Papuans, to the point that they become a small minority in Papua and Separation becomes infeasible. It works against Native Americans and Indigenous Australians. I doubt Papuans would agree to this solution.

                        Which problem do you want to solve?
                        Dear Sir, dear Forum,

                        We strongly believe this forum should relaunch this topic! And even by renewing the topic theme into our earlier proposed title: OK so WHEN do we fix Papua? Please use, its not registered;-)
                        We recommend to again start enlightning discussions from there with appreciated Forum members...

                        The in above quote narrowed down formula is not quite accurate: Uunder the 1945-1962 Dutch rule period (Netherlands New Guinea, with the capital Hollandia) Papuans actually experienced equal treatment based on the rule of law and justice FOR ALL. There is even footage of this constuctive and peacefull Dutch- Papua co-existense, see this link after 30 minutes:

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g5z5s0dm_U

                        We are just cheerfull that the 1947 Canberra Agreement as well as the 1950 ANZUS Alliance recognition West Papua Melanesia's nation rights and its territorial maritime borders are finally being respected by RI generations getting educated 24/7:

                        Please see link: http://www.radionz.co.nz/internation...st-papua-demos

                        Setia Djudjur Mesra
                        Insjah Allah
                        Na Kores na Refo

                        Thank you.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                          Ivan, I know you probably didn't mean for that to come out racist and imperialist but... it was totally racist and imperialist. Want to do right by Papua? Stop colonizing, move toward their independence. Respect the indigenous peoples there and their wish to separate from a foreign, Austronesian government.

                          Seriously, you invoked MANIFEST DESTINY for this? That's about as colonial as you can get. It was a policy that effectively replaced the natives, it didn't empower or enable them. It caused millions of deaths.

                          You don't need to assimilate the locals, you just need to stay home.
                          Indonesia is a colonist? Come on, get real!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Kobe Oser View Post

                            Dear Sir, dear Forum,

                            We strongly believe this forum should relaunch this topic! And even by renewing the topic theme into our earlier proposed title: OK so WHEN do we fix Papua? Please use, its not registered;-)
                            We recommend to again start enlightning discussions from there with appreciated Forum members...

                            The in above quote narrowed down formula is not quite accurate: Uunder the 1945-1962 Dutch rule period (Netherlands New Guinea, with the capital Hollandia) Papuans actually experienced equal treatment based on the rule of law and justice FOR ALL. There is even footage of this constuctive and peacefull Dutch- Papua co-existense, see this link after 30 minutes:

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g5z5s0dm_U

                            We are just cheerfull that the 1947 Canberra Agreement as well as the 1950 ANZUS Alliance recognition West Papua Melanesia's nation rights and its territorial maritime borders are finally being respected by RI generations getting educated 24/7:

                            Please see link: http://www.radionz.co.nz/internation...st-papua-demos

                            Setia Djudjur Mesra
                            Insjah Allah
                            Na Kores na Refo

                            Thank you.
                            Your knowledge is kind of out of date.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hombre de Maiz View Post
                              In his 2005 memoirs, the Indonesian Foreign Minister Ali Alatas recognized that he the Timor-Timur problem had gone from being “a pebble in a shoe”, as he had publicly declared in the early 1990s, to a “veritable boulder”. The renowned Indonesia scholar Ben Anderson published a prescient and insighful article titled “Gravel in Jakarta’s Shoes” shortly thereafter in which he predicted that it was only a matter of time before “the very long ebb-tide of Indonesia’s imperial adventure” receeded. Sure enough, within a decade East Timor was independent. Why, according to Anderson, did Indonesia fail in Timor?

                              “By 1900…the engines of Dutch capitalism were running well, and in The Hague the ‘new imperial thinking’ had taken hold. This mean massive investment in communication infrastructure in the colony. It meant the institution, to be sure on a conservative scale, of modern education for the natives…Out of this explosive combination of development, education and repression grew, quite suddendly, the Indonesian nationalism that only a few decades later ended Dutch rule.”

                              Fast-forward thirty five years:

                              “Suharto and his generals, alas, were poorly informed about their own country’s modern history, and so they proceeded in the 1980s to do exactly what the Dutch had done at the beginning of the century…So large sums were invested in East Timor’s infrastructure, mainly but by no means entirely for military purposes. They established an elaborate hierarchy of schools, including an university. The number of pupils enrolled was fifty times higher than in the Portuguese era; illiteracy was reduced from 90 per cent in 1972 to 42 per cent in 1990. It was hoped that this would help instil the Indonesian language…and loyalty to Jakarta.”

                              We now know also how that second act played out. What are the prospects for the Indonesian state to succeed in a third act of this nationalist play in Papua?
                              The Japanese also took over Indonesia, and the Dutch lost their grip. Then the US, which was doling out money and was quite infuential after the war, was opposed to colonization.

                              But educating the masses may work against keeping a country together in some cases. One way to keep a country together is to make it so nice and comfortable for those in power with the threat that if the power-structures crumbled, those in charge might lose their power and priviledge. I don't know if that will work in Papua. I'm just guessing based on what I have heard, but the people might look to kepala suku as the rightful leaders. If they appoint other leaders, the people may still look to the traditional ethnic leaders. If they try to put the ethnic tribal leaders in power, wouldn't they still be in power if they were independent? If they choose other leaders, then the people may still follow the traditional leaders. Education may work toward assimulating Papuans into the larger national country, but that doesn't always work out. It may work if a people are blending into a melting pot, but most Papuans look a bit different and are culturally different.

                              Comment


                              • Dear Participants, good to see you again!

                                How can this forum run out of ideas of fixing Papua? We don't accept that this is a matter of asking the wrong questions.
                                For the record: Our comment below is supported by backgrounfd info via several website links, because we still have the idea that the aspiration of the West Papua people remains unclear to this forum.

                                We do believe that certain points of stance are outdated from the beginning.
                                For instance just pick a beginning moment of natrionalism and tribal leadership to start: Second World War 1945.
                                As several suppressed peoples throughout the world wanted to decolonize, for this forum's information the "original 1945 proklamasi from A till A (Atjeh till Ambon)" by Sukarno-Hatta was one nationalistic expression which was encountered on the same day of 17 August 1945 by tribal leaders led by Marcus Wonggor Kaisiëpo Ms. in Hollandia, Dutch New Guinea (Port Numbay), stating that West Papua Melanesia would rather be educated by the Dutch and will never become part of any new Indonesia state,or the so called Republik Indonesia Serikat.

                                See this link, which we hope you will not qualify als fake historical news: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...s_of_Indonesia

                                And thus happened, West Papua remained their fruitfull economical development hand in hand with the Dutch, BASED ON EQUALITY, while safely recognized within the Melanesian family by the South Pacific Commission, for further information on this new history,
                                See link: http://kobe-oser.nl/70th-anniversary...unding-member/

                                As we have stated numerous times at this forum:
                                How the barbaric Generals regime of Indonesia is developing its Pancasila or executes its Bhinneka Tunggal Ika IS OF NO INTEREST WHATS HOW EVER to the people West Papua Melanesia under duress. (The forum is free to quote us on this or copy and spread this quote).

                                Needless to say as a reaction on above topic is that with a West Papua nation packed with TNI/ Kopasus it still remains hard for tribal leaders to stand out for their opinion without getting butchered.
                                See link: https://www.apnews.com/efceacca3aaa481db3b8df77353c6620

                                The current President in transition of West Papua Melanesia has to operate abroad in the land of the free,
                                See this news footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wQujc4xJ4c

                                However we believe the recent info in below two website links are THE DEFINITION OF INJUSTICE at its best in the beautifull country of West Papua Melanesia:

                                See link: http://www.radionz.co.nz/internation...s-756m-in-2017

                                See link: https://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/asia...132223003.html

                                We believe our freedom from fear and tyranny is at a glance with support even within RI for West Papua's political independece and welcome your comment to above, we certainly hope its fruitfull. Working towards democracy!

                                Setia,Djudjur, Mesra

                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Sun Tzu's “"Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across".”

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