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Prenup question - urgent...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Elizabeth-Madison View Post
    1. Actually The Couple in your example still has 360 days after the date of marriage to transfer or sell their property (the woman's property)..,otherwise, the government will seize the property.
    Can you show where the government has recently seized the property in such a circumstance? I think the law is on the books, but don't recall anyone ever saying it's happened to them.
    Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

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    • #17
      Larut, Well, it looked a lot to me like the husband's name was added to one of the deeds I saw, even though the wife was designated as owner. I don't recall seeing this in reverse, such as a deed in a man's name. That's why I surmised there is a gender issue.

      Re: Elizabeth comment. It's very difficult to discuss Indonesian flexibility in this forum because so many people have been burned and there is such a long history of corruption/extortion. It's always safe to play by the rules, but in some cases, the situation "on the ground" doesn't fit into neat little boxes on a paper form.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Elizabeth-Madison View Post
        It's true. The highest title of land ownership is Freehold title (Sertifikat Hak Milik /SHM) and the second highest is Building Rights Title (or HGB). Only Indonesian citizen could own the SHM title, and foreigner could only get HGB. However, when you rented a property from any Indonesian citizen (the owner) they should abide by the rules of Renting Law of which they couldn't sell, renovate, transfer, or even use the property as security debt...so practically speaking, the renter will have FULL CONTROL of the property until the rent agreement is over.

        One thing that u should take into account is that the renting agreement is better to be sewn within your prenup.
        I have been living for more than 7 years in Indonesia and during these time I've been buying and selling properties for several times. Just make sure u have a good lawyer to cover/waive every law necessary in your prenup. My lawyer usually use 3 subs-contract beside the prenup. (debt agreement -> PRENUP <- property renting agreement)
        I disagree on that point Elizabeth. As far as I know, a foreign individual cannot hold a HGB (Hak Guna Bangunan). The law about land says:

        Yang dapat mempunyai hak guna bangunan ialah :
        a. warganegara Indonesia;
        b. badan hukum yang didirikan menurut hukum Indonesia dan berkedudukan di Indonesia

        HGB can be held by:
        a. Indonesian citizen
        b. Legal entities that were founded following Indonesia Law and are located in Indonesia.

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        • #19
          I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the law about an Indonesian marrying a foreigner and then loosing his/her right to own land. The points are:

          1) By law a foreigner can by no means own land (and neither can a bi-national) ;
          2) If a mixed marriage is done under joint ownership rule, then if the Indonesian spouse buys land it would also be the property of the foreign spouse, which is forbidden by law.
          3) If a marriage is done under separate ownership rule, then if the Indonesian spouse buys land it will remain on his/her sole name, which is ok.
          4) The only way to have a marriage under separate ownership rule is to make a pre-nuptial agreement with a notary ("pre-nup"), before the marriage.

          So the question of whether or not making a pre-nup has no connection with the foreigner's rights. It is about whether or not the Indonesian spouse will keep his/her right to acquire new land after marrying.

          And actually, what is questioned is not the right of the Indonesian spouse to own land after marrying a foreigner, but the right to acquire new land, in the case where this new land would then be a joint property with the foreign spouse. This means that even if marrying under the joint property rule, the Indonesian spouse can still own all the lands that he/she acquired before marriage. This also means that the Indonesian spouse can own land acquired after marriage if this land doesn't follow the marriage status rule, which is for instance the case of land inherited with a will.

          The Indonesian Law also says that if, for any reason (inheritance without will, mixed marriage with joint ownership) a foreigner or a bi-national finds him/herself owner of a land, then he/she has 1 year to get rid of this ownership (selling the land for instance). If not, the law says that the ownership is automatically canceled and the land becomes state property. This is what law says, maybe the reality is different!

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          • #20
            As Salaamu Alaikum,
            Marcus seems like you the one to ask... I will be getting married soon to my future Indonesian Wife. Documents: What documents does she need and Should I just send Mine to her and let her take them to KuA? I live in America..... Shakran Lak...
            [FONT=georgia][COLOR=#00FFFF]El` Shabazz-Wa Alaikum Salaamu-Go in Peace. Bismillah[/COLOR][/FONT]

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            • #21
              Hi Senyorita

              we can help you with the prenup agreement, we are the official prenup service provider, you should make prenup agreement before your marriage it is only 2 Million IDR/200 usd and only takes few days to be certified by the notary. you can specify the properties divisions in the case of divorce, please feel free to contact us for further questions
              www.pra-nikah.com

              cheers

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              • #22
                Assalaamu Alaikum,
                Can someone help me answer about the following:
                If a foreigner married an Indonesian girl. And the couple don't know that they have to prenup before their marriage. And they bought a land with house after their marriage without a prenup with the Indonesian wife's name. May I know if there would be any problem in selling their property?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by mhaniff08 View Post
                  Assalaamu Alaikum,
                  Can someone help me answer about the following:
                  If a foreigner married an Indonesian girl. And the couple don't know that they have to prenup before their marriage. And they bought a land with house after their marriage without a prenup with the Indonesian wife's name. May I know if there would be any problem in selling their property?
                  Well from my experience, and two expat friends, we have all sold houses without a prenup, we were all married before this extremely useful site was set up, and were unaware of a prenup requirement, one friend as actually sold two, having said that the problem may come should your wife die, and accordingly you have one year to sell the house, some may be able to help you on that point, all the properties were in their wives names, so we had nothing to do with the purchase, hope that puts your mind at ease.

                  I should add, although I haven't considered it, but should you get divorced, I don't know how that would work out

                  Also like to add, if you aren't married yet pls do get a prenup, it is a requirement, as my mates and I have had no problems, doesn't me you or any one else may not be so lucky
                  Last edited by Anglian; 26-04-16, 20:01.

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                  • #24
                    theoretic the government can change the titel of your certificate from freehold to leasehold they have the power do you will lose your land and you wre able to rent it from the government.
                    this can be the worst case.
                    what you can do. cancle your marriage and make a prenup, in lndonesia ceryify at the court in your area and marriage again.
                    or keep your head down and jope nobody ever will look at your certificate or marriage or prenup
                    if your land if big expensive consider what will be cheaper remarriage or in worst case loose it
                    i in my case canceled the marriage and remarriage after a new prenup again was costly but save

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                    • #25
                      back to the real question we already sold land and also bought some, nobody ever will ask for a prenup
                      nor notaris neither gevernment who make the certificate because all is under the indonesian name

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by keepwalking View Post
                        back to the real question we already sold land and also bought some, nobody ever will ask for a prenup
                        nor notaris neither gevernment who make the certificate because all is under the indonesian name
                        I also know of many who do this but it could be dangerous.
                        If any of your enemies were to find out they can do you some damage.
                        I know of one situation where the brother of a WNI, married to a foreigner, tried to get her property using his knowledge of law...he didn't win the court case because the WNI transferred the title to another member of family, but it was an expensive exercise.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Davita View Post
                          I also know of many who do this but it could be dangerous.
                          If any of your enemies were to find out they can do you some damage.
                          I know of one situation where the brother of a WNI, married to a foreigner, tried to get her property using his knowledge of law...he didn't win the court case because the WNI transferred the title to another member of family, but it was an expensive exercise.
                          Bit pessimitic Davita, everything in Indonesia for expats can be fraught, you just have to do the best you can with what you have,

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Anglian View Post
                            Bit pessimitic Davita, everything in Indonesia for expats can be fraught, you just have to do the best you can with what you have,
                            I'm not pessimistic and I do agree with you.....otherwise I wouldn't have chosen to live here. Anyway....frustrations can be calmed with copious amounts of Bintang.... or even Hatten Rosé...

                            I just state facts, as I find them, especially when large sums of money are involved....and leave the attitude up to the reader.

                            My post was in response to keepwalking who advised putting a property in a WNI spouse's maiden name, by omission of marriage to a WNA, can circumvent the law...it doesn't!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Davita View Post
                              I'm not pessimistic and I do agree with you.....otherwise I wouldn't have chosen to live here. Anyway....frustrations can be calmed with copious amounts of Bintang.... or even Hatten Rosé...

                              I just state facts, as I find them, especially when large sums of money are involved....and leave the attitude up to the reader.

                              My post was in response to keepwalking who advised putting a property in a WNI spouse's maiden name, by omission of marriage to a WNA, can circumvent the law...it doesn't!
                              sorry Davita missed that bit about putting in a maiden name, you are quite right, just more problems

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