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Why even bother with a prenup?

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  • #46
    I would say the law that says a foreigner cannot own property, or that a married couple where one partner is Indonesian cannot jointly own property is burdensome, especially to the non-Indonesian, which comports with the Wiki definition
    "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -Thomas Paine.

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    • #47
      I would even argue it is "unjust" too. Besides the fact it does not make sense from a reciprocity principle perspective (then Indonesians should not be allowed to buy real estate in Europe or the US for instance), it is unfair to remove the right of a WNI who gets married, to purchase land in his/her own country.

      And discrimination of people who are married to people with a different nationality, wouldn't that be cruel?

      Any definition of oppression we haven't covered?
      [FONT=arial black]
      [/FONT]

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      • #48
        English is not my first language , but as I am not totally satisfied with the Wikipedia definition , I found this one which is nearer of what I think :

        from http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ish/oppressive

        Definition of oppressive
        adjective

        inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment:an oppressive dictatorship
        weighing heavily on the mind or spirits:the offices present an oppressive atmosphere

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        • #49
          Perhaps oppressive is a bit too harsh in relative terms, but it is certainly unfair, discriminatory, and foolish, especially when this collateral consequence could be easily addressed.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by marcus View Post
            (1) Ok .

            (2) You can do that , but Atlantis said it is not mandatory .

            http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...ghlight=prenup (Atlantis' post no.24 , court register)

            (3) I think it is not mandatory too , but ... (I asked but KUA didn't do it for us) .

            (4) The sample in that link is for shared wealth , not the one you want .

            http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...ghlight=notary (ref.notary Jkt)
            Thank you, very helpful!

            Originally posted by nickie
            [COLOR=#333333](3) In the buku nikah, on the last page where the KUA officer's signature located, it also states whether you have a prenup or not (yes/no). The officer will cross either one of them.[/COLOR]

            [COLOR=#333333](4) As Marcus said, the sample in the link is not what you want. It has to clearly state that property which is acquired by each party during the marriage will not become shared/joint property and is under the authority of your each party.
            [/COLOR]
            Thank you, we have changed it accordingly!

            I find it a bit weird that on a page that outlines in great detail why it is a really bad idea to have joint property in a mixed marriage in Indonesia and argues for a "pisah harta" they ultimately provide a link to a prenup that argues for shared wealth.

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            • #51
              In the end we got it done free of charge by a notaris through family connections. It is being registered by them with PN now. (We will pay for those costs, of course.)
              I still wonder why the expat site page, which argues extensively for "pisah harta" (separation of property) would link to a draft for a "harta bersama" (joint property). Weird.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Hiram View Post
                I still wonder why the expat site page, which argues extensively for "pisah harta" (separation of property) would link to a draft for a "harta bersama" (joint property). Weird.
                I warned the admin a few years ago about it. It was a copy of a prenup which has been sent by a user who thought he had the right thing done. She removed it but I guess that she kept it in her file and that she re-included it later when she added some infos, forgetting the warning I sent her on the first place.
                Please, remember that the webmaster of expat.or.id is not a lawyer and all the legal pages that you would find there are either copy/paste of posts written in the forum or pages written by the sponsor that she includes.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by snowdrop View Post
                  Hi all,
                  I don't know if anyone can answer my question. My husband and I have been thinking of selling our house that we bought 10 years ago in Jogjakarta. It is HGB not SHM. We don't have a pre nup. Can we sell it or would have a problem selling? Thanks
                  Ive know two couples buy and sell their house without a Prenup, this was in Tangerang, they both had no problems selling

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                  • #54
                    If you have a problem, find another notaris. It often works.

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                    • #55
                      Folks, it is DONE!

                      The prenup has been registered with the Pengadilan Negeri as well as the KUA and Saturday we FINALLY got hitched!

                      I think that once the last steps (legalisation and translation of the buku nikah and registration of the marriage with the German authorities) is done as well, I will post a step-by-step guide in this forum that explicitly details what a German man and an Indonesian Muslim woman have to do to be able to get married in Indonesia.

                      I am sure that it will help any couples of that constellation a great deal as a lot of the information out there is more tailored to Australian-Indonesien or American-Indonesian couples, but hopefully beyond that it will also include a number of more general and rather widely applicable points that can also be helpful for other couples.

                      This forum has proven to be so very valuable and helpful to me, I think it's time to give back soon!

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                      • #56
                        Congrats! With all, or most, the legal stuff in the rearview mirror, I hope you can focus on enjoying a great life with your new partner.
                        Last edited by waarmstrong; 17-06-13, 11:54.

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                        • #57
                          Thank you!

                          Yeah, I hope so too! First two more weeks of work though, then a big-a$$ reception in her kampung in the middle of nowhere, and then, finally, one month with little to no obligations, time to relax and a honeymoon in Bali.

                          I. Cannot. Wait.

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                          • #58
                            Hiram, I wish to congratulate you on your marriage and wish you lots of happiness in your married life. I also wish to comment that you have responded very positively to the comments of the many people who have posted on this Forum and taken a practical decision concerning your Pre-Nuptial Agreement which may serve as a good example of when and how to do it - and why perhaps as well.

                            I would also like to apologize openly to you Hiram if I posted on this Thread something which could have been posted elsewhere, at least on a separate thread. I had no wish to hijack your Thread and the positivity which it represents on the topic of pre-Nuptial. I have had some time to reflect on what I posted and hence my apology.

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                            • #59
                              Thank you for your good wishes!

                              Sorry if my response was a bit harsh - that whole marriage preparation thing had me slightly stressed.

                              No hard feelings either way, apology accepted. Best wishes and good luck with your issue!

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                              • #60
                                I am Australian and recently married my Indonesian husband. He and I talked at length about the whole prenup thing, and in the end, we did get a prenup. We spoke to our Notaris and soght a lot of clarification from her about the whole thing. This is what she told us, and what made us decide it was just easier in the end to get the Prenup. It seems to protect both of us, not just in terms of property, but also custidy rights of future children etc.

                                Words of my notaris: "Prenup is very important for mix couple who is thinking about living in Indonesia for a long term. As you know, foreigner is not allowed to own property here.
                                The Legal system in Indonesia is following what is called Romano Germanic Law System (because we were under the dutch). We follow the Rule that all assets acquired during the marriage are considered "community property". Marital property in community property states are owned by both spouses equally (50/50). This marital property includes earnings, all property bought with those earnings, adn all debts, accrued during the marriage. Community property begins at the marriage and ends when the couple physically separates with the intention of not continuing the marriage.

                                As I mentioned, Indonesian property law forbid foreigner to own property here, in a term the property have the full ownership right or the right to build in the land Certificate. Therefore if a couple avoid having a prenup the the Community Property rule applied to them. And since foreigner is not allowed to own property, then the law here is also forbid the spouse to own property. To avoid confusion when separation occurred.

                                That is why prenup is a very important tool for Indonesian who marry foreigner. To be able to have all our civil right back. Without prenup Indonesian Law sees the couple as a foreign couple and all of our right to own property, getting mortgage or loan from the bank vanished. No bank will be able to grant any loan for the Indonesian spouse to own anything.

                                There's no other way to own property other than prenup unless you want to register the marriage outside Indonesia and never register the marriage here until the law allows foreigner to own property. But I don't think it's a good idea for you to do that without knowing the grey area in Indonesian Law yourself. It is risky.

                                Some people use others name to own property but I won't suggest you to do that either. You might lose you money

                                Prenup is the only safe tool for mix marriage in Indonesia. There is a way of giving security to the foreign spouse. After purchasing the property, the Indonesian spouse can sign a lease agreement with the foreign spouse (for 50 years for example). Then the Foreign spouse would feel more secure for being able to live in the property, but not to own it."

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