Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why even bother with a prenup?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why even bother with a prenup?

    First of all I am sorry if this has already been discussed over and over again in this forum before, but either my inability to properly use the search function or my lack of patience led me to the decision to start a new thread rather than going through hundreds of pages of numerous threads just to piece together the answers to the very simple question that's been on my mind lately:

    Why bother with a prenup?

    Me and my fiancée are not planning on buying land in Indonesia. And if we were to buy land in Indonesia at some future point, couldn't she just own it instead of both of us? Where's the harm?

    I get that joint ownership is problematic, but can't she just own it alone? (Mind you, the chance we'll ever buy land here in the first place is minute.) I guess the only danger would be that she buys it (with our joint money), we divorce at some point in the future, and she keeps the land. Is that it?

    If that's the only risk involved, I gladly abstain from getting a prenup.

    Or are there others?

    As many have said before, being a foreigner in Indonesia will mean that getting the courts to side with me might prove difficult even with a prenup, should issues and disputes arise in the future.

    So if the prime reason for getting a prenup is really just the issue of joint ownership of land in Indonesia, then I will not do it.

    Is that unwise? Any constructive comments are welcome. And sorry again for not having been able to figure this out myself by reading the other threads. I will try to make up for it by posting a step-by-step guide soon on German man & Indo woman marriage. German bureacracy is insane and drove me to the brink of lunacy myself, so it should be able to serve both as a way to deal with the trauma as well well as helping others. Watch out for it, liebe Deutsche!
    Last edited by Hiram; 03-06-13, 12:38.

  • #2
    I think you have misunderstood the point of the prenup.

    It does not allow joint ownership of any land or property. It just states that any property ownership will be solely your wife's. If you divorced, you would not have any legal right to it.

    She cannot just own it alone, because if you are married, all assets after you get married are shared 50/50. As you cant own property, without prenup, she also cant own property, because automatically half would be yours.

    If she has a KTP that shows she is married, and no prenup, a good notaris would not be able to allow her to buy property. Another problem can arise if she was to inherit property, she would have to sell it within 1 year or it would be confiscated by the government.

    Hope this helps a little.
    [COLOR=#ff0000]Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds[/COLOR]. Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Hiram View Post
      (1) Why bother with a prenup?

      (2)... , couldn't she just own it instead of both of us?
      ... can't she just own it alone? ...

      (3) I guess the only danger would be that she buys it (with our joint money), we divorce at some point in the future, and she keeps the land. Is that it? ...

      (4) Or are there others? ....
      (1) See link below :

      http://www.expat.or.id/info/prenuptialagreement.html


      (2) No . As Jim said above . One of the purpose of a prenup/separated land , house & business ownership is exactly you two being able to buy land/house in her name .

      (3) This is the danger of you buying in her name , with that prenup above mentioned .

      (4) In my opinion this also applies to business . As Indonesians can open small business (foreigners can open only the relatively bigger PT PMA) , many foreigners opens it in the Indonesian spouse's name , a similar situation as in the land case .

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by jim69 View Post
        .... Another problem can arise if she was to inherit property, she would have to sell it within 1 year or it would be confiscated by the government.
        No . What she inherits is , by Indonesian Marriage Law [UU no.1/1974 , Article 35 (2)] , only hers , so she can keep it as long as she wants .

        It is the foreigner spouse that would have to sell it within 1 year , if he/she inherits an Indonesian land/house (there must be no will) [ Indonesian Land Law , UU no.5/1960 , Article 21 (3)] .
        Last edited by marcus; 03-06-13, 17:20.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by marcus View Post
          No . What she inherits is , by Indonesian Marriage Law [UU no.1/1974 , Article 35 (2)] , only hers , so she can keep it as long as she wants .

          It is the foreigner spouse that would have to sell it within 1 year , if he/she inherits an Indonesian land/house (there must be no will) [ Indonesian Land Law , UU no.5/1960 , Article 21 (3)] .

          Ah,,, I misunderstood then, I stand corrected. Thanks Marcus.
          [COLOR=#ff0000]Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds[/COLOR]. Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            What if you didn't obtain a prenut prior to marriage?
            [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

            Comment


            • #7
              Better if you read the references below :

              http://www.expat.or.id/info/prenuptialagreement.html

              http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/3016-No-Pre-Nup-consequences?


              Note : A subject which may require further discussions is : if is possible for the Indonesian spouse to receive a land/house as a gift .
              A gift or inheritance are considered separated owned by the spouses (according to the Marriage Law) , so it would not conflict with the Land Law .
              Last edited by marcus; 03-06-13, 18:24.

              Comment


              • #8
                Read those. Guess just hoping for something changing. It is Indonesia. We are not planning on buying any sort of property but one never knows. Perhaps a piece of land will come by us that is too hard to pass up. One may entertain the idea that they buy the land in a relative's name and then they gift it to the citizen spouse.

                We have spoke about the wife possibly starting a small business to keep her busy while I'm fishing though.
                [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

                Comment


                • #9
                  another thing about prenup, if you are in debt to the bank and you cant pay, the bank wont be able to take anything ( house or car) that are under your wife's name. vice versa.
                  dont judge a book by it cover. judge it by it price. good books are expensive

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The topic remains of great interest to me but I am no less convinced that a pre-Nuptial Agreement made and notarized in Indonesia is anything more than totally useless to an ex-Pat, whether he knows the Indonesian law or not.

                    Jims point about the wifes KTP is an interesting one and something without doubt that a Notary would surely check in the legal process. He risks having his Licence revoked to practice but it seems quite common for the Indonesian wife to proceed to buy property in Indonesia via this route. It seems that many few Indonesians or ex-Pats owning property in Indonesia are aware of the need for a pre-Nuptial Agreement or of its actual significance. It is also quite possible that the Indonesian wife circumvents the law and fools the Notary by presenting a KTP in her maiden/unmarried name.

                    What is the worst case scenario? Will someone come along from within Indonesian authority and force a sale of the property or confiscate it from the family? How is the Indonesian system going to detect that an ex-Pat has invested in property in Indonesia and that an Indonesian wife has given her name to the legal title?

                    What are the flags in the system? Money movement from overseas of a large amount? The ex-pat with wife and children living at a prestigious address? Wherever we live in Indonesia it is verified via the RT and Kecamatan and we must tell KanIm and Catsip for Blue Book and KTP purposes. There could also be a flag on the Tax system regards Income. Yet I have not heard of a single case (yet) where a foreigner has been 'shopped' for going down the route of using his money to buy and invest in Indonesian property or of the Indonesian wife being 'lifted' of the real estate in her name.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Quote : The topic remains of great interest to me but I am no less convinced that a pre-Nuptial Agreement made and notarized in Indonesia is anything more than totally useless to an ex-Pat, whether he knows the Indonesian law or not.' Precisely Mr.C ....... Too many expats equate 'pre-nuptual agreements' with law and customs in their home country......well you are definitely NOT in Kansas Dorothy.....I personally do not know one single person who has ever won any legal case in Indonesia whether apertaining to marriage, divorce, property or custody of the family cat......and before anyone jumps in and starts quoting 'a friend of a friend'.......lets see some evidence and I will do a hundred and eighty on this....
                      [COLOR=#4b0082].......I write for a living ....and live to write[/COLOR]...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think you're missing the point here. The sole purpose of prenup (as mentioned in this forum) is to enable your Indonesian spouse to buy property during your marriage. Nobody says anything about winning lawsuits, that's a different story all together. And talking about evidence, when buying our house two years ago my husband was able to get a contract with developer and a loan from the bank on his own, I wasn't even in Indonesia. But when it came to issuing the certificate the notaris did ask if we had a prenup as without it she wouldn't be able to proceed.
                        Obviously she was well informed, how many lawyers in Indonesia really know the law is another question.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Joe Writeson View Post
                          Quote : The topic remains of great interest to me but I am no less convinced that a pre-Nuptial Agreement made and notarized in Indonesia is anything more than totally useless to an ex-Pat, whether he knows the Indonesian law or not.' Precisely Mr.C ....... Too many expats equate 'pre-nuptual agreements' with law and customs in their home country......well you are definitely NOT in Kansas Dorothy.....I personally do not know one single person who has ever won any legal case in Indonesia whether apertaining to marriage, divorce, property or custody of the family cat......and before anyone jumps in and starts quoting 'a friend of a friend'.......lets see some evidence and I will do a hundred and eighty on this....
                          No offense intended, but evidences have been given to you already, but it seems that you persist in ignoring it.
                          http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...l=1#post335768

                          I have a hard disk which contains hundreds of court decisions, quite a few of which involving foreign entities or foreigners. It would not take me long to send you a couple of dozen cases where these foreign entities/foreigners have won their civil court case or have been acquitted in a penal case. Really Joe Writeson, you'd better refrain from thesort of comment you've made above, because it is plain wrong and very easy to debunk.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you for all of your advice, I think I get it now.

                            Now to find a qualified notaris in Jakarta who can pull this and the registration with the district court and the KUA off in under 10 days... Without charging more than 2 juta... Uff...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Scratch that. We are going to have a notary issue us a "surat perjanjian pisah harta", that's all. Then, we will file this document before the marriage at the Pengadilan Negeri. And then we will attach it to the documents that we will hand in at the KUA before the wedding.

                              Is this the correct procedure?

                              And do the KUA guys need to put the addition "ada surat perjanjian pisah harta" somewhere in the buku nikah for it to be valid?

                              Once more, this forum has proven unbelievably helpful and an incredibly rich source of information.

                              First Atlantis' posts got me a free flight back to Germany by pointing out that law that requires companies to repatriate foreign staff, then Matty served me up some of the most delicious meat I ever had in my life, and now this. Amazing!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X