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  • #31
    Dan, explain this if you would,

    from Wikipedia: Abu Hurayra a companion of the Prophet quotes him saying, "Five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving pubic hair with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (reported in the hadiths of Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim). So, despite its absence from the Qur'an, it has been a religious norm from the beginning of Islam.

    other Fitrahs do not include circumcision. Are the five things listed above rules for everyone? Has anything changed and is now more acceptable like using a razor under arm instead of plucking or how about waxing instead of pubic hair with a razor? Is this for both men and women?
    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
      I swore off speaking about religion here... but I'll do so briefly to clear up this common misconception. The Shafi'i jurists claim that circumcision is wajib for both boys and girls. Most other jurists feel that it is Sunnah, but you don't HAVE to do it. Most people do it anyway.
      Thanks for the explanation... But lucky circumcision is more common to boys and never heard any girls i know having it.
      Me likey

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      • #33
        Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
        Dan, explain this if you would,

        from Wikipedia: Abu Hurayra a companion of the Prophet quotes him saying, "Five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving pubic hair with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (reported in the hadiths of Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim). So, despite its absence from the Qur'an, it has been a religious norm from the beginning of Islam.

        other Fitrahs do not include circumcision. Are the five things listed above rules for everyone? Has anything changed and is now more acceptable like using a razor under arm instead of plucking or how about waxing instead of pubic hair with a razor? Is this for both men and women?
        A few things. First, what is meant by "fitrah" in this sense. It generally implies something that is fundamental or natural or basic or innate. In this sense it means "natural hygiene." These are recommended activities for keeping yourself healthy. Notice that they are not obligatory in this context. Keep in mind also that there are other ahadith similar to this that recommend up to ten activities. There's plenty of other do's and don'ts.

        Performing these activities is a means to emulate Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) and the companions. They are Sunnah, and that's what Sunnah means, to emulate or imitate the ways of Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam). That's why we are called "Sunni."

        It is highly highly recommended to perform these acts, but it is not obligatory. Also, these apply to both men and women. Both should make an effort to shave pubic hair, under the armpits etc.

        So, the natural question is "why do the Shafi'i jurists believe circumcision is mandatory?" It's because they have a manual for jurisprudence known as "The Reliance of the Traveler." In it, it is recommended that men and women be circumcised. Almost all Indonesians are of this tradition, same as people in Somalia as an example.

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        • #34
          Seeing the destitution, violence, corruption, oppression, ignorance and squalor that visits the lands where these discussions are deemed pertinent, you'd think they'd have bigger fish to fry. You'd think discussions would be solely about things that actually matter. Talk about losing sight of the ball.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Hombre de Maiz View Post
            Seeing the destitution, violence, corruption, oppression, ignorance and squalor that visits the lands where these discussions are deemed pertinent, you'd think they'd have bigger fish to fry. You'd think discussions would be solely about things that actually matter. Talk about losing sight of the ball.
            Welp. This is the marriage thread. I'm just going to discuss why or why not someone should consider getting snipped for purposes of marriage in Islam. Heck, I probably shouldn't even be doing that much.

            We can talk about all of that stuff another time. My ass is on vacation.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
              A few things. First, what is meant by "fitrah" in this sense. It generally implies something that is fundamental or natural or basic or innate. In this sense it means "natural hygiene." These are recommended activities for keeping yourself healthy. Notice that they are not obligatory in this context. Keep in mind also that there are other ahadith similar to this that recommend up to ten activities. There's plenty of other do's and don'ts.

              Performing these activities is a means to emulate Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) and the companions. They are Sunnah, and that's what Sunnah means, to emulate or imitate the ways of Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam). That's why we are called "Sunni."

              It is highly highly recommended to perform these acts, but it is not obligatory. Also, these apply to both men and women. Both should make an effort to shave pubic hair, under the armpits etc.

              So, the natural question is "why do the Shafi'i jurists believe circumcision is mandatory?" It's because they have a manual for jurisprudence known as "The Reliance of the Traveler." In it, it is recommended that men and women be circumcised. Almost all Indonesians are of this tradition, same as people in Somalia as an example.
              OK, not obligatory but are they highly recommended here? I understand women (hopefully) are not required to trim their mustache but, have these recommendations been upgraded to more modern technics? Waxing or shaving instead of plucking. Do you pluck your underarm hairs? That would be more an act of self inflicted pain then hygiene.

              Are there 10 total or an additional 10 to the above list? Care to share what they may be and the importance of each in regards to local teachings. I read where Mohammad was born without foreskin so that could be taken as either to remove it or since he wasn't circumcised others do not need to be as well.
              [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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              • #37
                Originally posted by fastpitch17 View Post
                OK, not obligatory but are they highly recommended here? I understand women (hopefully) are not required to trim their mustache but, have these recommendations been upgraded to more modern technics? Waxing or shaving instead of plucking. Do you pluck your underarm hairs? That would be more an act of self inflicted pain then hygiene.

                Are there 10 total or an additional 10 to the above list? Care to share what they may be and the importance of each in regards to local teachings. I read where Mohammad was born without foreskin so that could be taken as either to remove it or since he wasn't circumcised others do not need to be as well.
                Up to ten. The jurists generally agree that you may shave instead of pluck.
                [COLOR=#000000]
                [/COLOR][SIZE=1][FONT=arial]Narrated Aisha[ra], The Rasulullah Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam said: “Ten things are part of the fitrah: cutting the moustache, letting the beard grow, cleaning the teeth with a miswaak, rinsing the nose with water, cutting one’s nails, washing between the finger-joints, plucking the armpit hairs, shaving the pubic hair and... cleaning one’s private parts with water.” [/FONT][/SIZE]

                It is uncertain whether or not Rasulullah was circumcised in a ritual by one of his relatives or if he was born without a foreskin. What we do know is that he instructed converts to get it done if they are able to.

                It's highly recommended, as I said, but I think it's a very personal choice. You won't go to hell if you don't do it.

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                • #38
                  Thank you.
                  [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Hombre de Maiz View Post
                    Seeing the destitution, violence, corruption, oppression, ignorance and squalor that visits the lands where these discussions are deemed pertinent, you'd think they'd have bigger fish to fry. You'd think discussions would be solely about things that actually matter. Talk about losing sight of the ball.
                    If it is decided to do the deed, I hope the cutter does not loose sight of the ball. I slip in that direction could be doubly painful and dis functional.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
                      A few things. First, what is meant by "fitrah" in this sense. It generally implies something that is fundamental or natural or basic or innate. In this sense it means "natural hygiene." These are recommended activities for keeping yourself healthy. Notice that they are not obligatory in this context. Keep in mind also that there are other ahadith similar to this that recommend up to ten activities. There's plenty of other do's and don'ts.

                      Performing these activities is a means to emulate Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) and the companions. They are Sunnah, and that's what Sunnah means, to emulate or imitate the ways of Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam). That's why we are called "Sunni."

                      It is highly highly recommended to perform these acts, but it is not obligatory. Also, these apply to both men and women. Both should make an effort to shave pubic hair, under the armpits etc.

                      So, the natural question is "why do the Shafi'i jurists believe circumcision is mandatory?" It's because they have a manual for jurisprudence known as "The Reliance of the Traveler." In it, it is recommended that men and women be circumcised. Almost all Indonesians are of this tradition, same as people in Somalia as an example.

                      So from what i read in your post, you are in favor of female circumcision? It has to be one of the most barbaric practices. Illegal in many countries.
                      [COLOR=#ff0000]Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds[/COLOR]. Albert Einstein

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by jim69 View Post
                        So from what i read in your post, you are in favor of female circumcision? It has to be one of the most barbaric practices. Illegal in many countries.
                        I'm on vacation from religious controversy and this thread is about helping dudes figure out their marital responsibilities. If you want to start yet another female circumcision thread, be my guest. For the record, the tradition of jurisprudence that I was taught was the Hanafi madhab rather than Shafi'i. If you read the earliest posts here, you can see that I'm not in favor of circumcision for my own children.

                        However, I have spoken at length about this issue in other threads on this forum.
                        Last edited by DanInAceh; 02-04-13, 19:05. Reason: Clarifying RELGIOUS controversy

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