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Indonesian Prenup when registering an overseas marriage

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Joe Writeson View Post
    .........not worth the paper its written on no matter who signs or stamps it......I dare you......I DOUBLE dog dare you to try taking an Indonesian to court in Indonesia.....unless of course you want to part with vast sums of wonga......cue responses ....'my friend of a friend knows someones second cousin who sued an Indonesian ......and won' ....

    I think you may be on the wrong track here Joe, the reason for the prenup is not to prepare to sue the spouse or split assets in the case of an eventual divorce but to allow the WNI spouse to buy property legally within the marriage.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Joe Writeson View Post
      .........not worth the paper its written on no matter who signs or stamps it......I dare you to try taking an Indonesian to court in Indonesia.....unless of course you want to part with vast sums of wonga......cue responses ....'my friend of a friend knows someones second cousin who sued an Indonesian ......and won' ....
      Originally posted by bad_azz
      Don't lose too much sleep over it.
      Also as Joe says - don't pin hopes on the justice system finding against a national in favour of a foreigner... I don't say its impossible- but I do say its improbable.
      Erm... though we are off topic the two above comments should be addressed in my opinion.

      1. I can email you quite a few keputusan taken by district, high or the supreme court which clearly shows that you are in the wrong.

      2. Also for the record, I've been acquitted twice (same case) in a District Court (Pengadilan Negeri Manado) and the Supreme Court (Mahkamah Agung). The alleged "victim" was an indonesian passport holder. Since then I've sued him for defamation and perjury and the case is at the prosecution level, with no doubt that a sentence will be given against him on the ground of article 310 KUHP. Then there will have a civil case which also will see him sentenced. Part of the case is available on Mahkamah Agung website.

      3. I had the visit of a police officer yesterday, bringing me a surat pemberitahuan concerning another case involving me, as the owner of a car, and an indonesian who has rented a car from us in January 2012 and who has sub-rented it, without any authorization, to 4 people (all indonesian) who have been involved in the commission of a criminal act with it. It made no difference for Pengadilan Negeri Gorontalo that I was a foreigner, not even residing in Propinsi Gorontalo while the defendants were all 4 WNI, born and residing in the province. They have been sentenced to two years in jail on the ground of article 406 which is a pretty heavy sentence for this article. The case was solid and it could have not been otherwise anyway. Concerning the guy who has rented the car from us on the first place, it will be adjudicated in Manado and here again, I have no doubt about the issue. He will be sentenced to both jail AND an amount of money to theorically cover the kerugian (it involves more than 100 millions in both spare parts, repair, loss of income due to the time the car has been immobilized...etc). Here again, though I have no doubt that the guy will be sentenced and do the term, I know well that we won't get any money to cover our loss but we don't care. It's again a matter of principle.
      I have written a bit about part of the saga concerning this case.
      http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...l=1#post230632
      http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/26821-Going-to-court?p=277526&viewfull=1#post277526

      http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...l=1#post254702

      4. In matter of divorce, please read this and tell me if the deal isn't fair for the foreigner, against his WNI spouse. A house and car in Bali versus a house in a Semarang kampung, I sign for it anytime (the no prenup bit is worth a thought by the way). Again here, I am ready to PM to anyone the exact reference of the keputusan PN Denpasar. This case is interesting for many reason if one reads it thoroughfully.
      This is also in civil cases archives that one would find the most cases (because they are the more common) where a WNA obtained a fair decision against a WNI. I remember a "funny" case were a WNA managed to get a VERY fair handing to a divorce case against his WNI wife who was asking for a IDR 50 millions/month alimony. She got 0 due to the fact that both of her parents testified in favor of the WNA, admitting that while he was abroad, the WNI spouse was playing with men... Food for thoughts.

      Since it is way off topic, I invite any of you two to open a new thread if you want, and I would very happy to provide MUCH more examples, with exact references of keputusan where a foreigners has obtained a rather fair decision against an indonesian. I've heard many times the "[COLOR=#333333]not worth the paper its written on no matter who signs or stamps it......I dare you to try taking an Indonesian to court in Indonesia...etc". Usually, and this is what is funny, it is said by foreigners who have never entered an indonesian court or had very little exposure to it. The people who comment on the alleged "double standard" have never compared the decision taken involving a foreigner with the one involving a WNI in a similar situation. Anyway, we (foreigners) are all, including me, sometimes whinging that we are perpetual "victims". Sometimes it's just untrue and it's worth noting it.

      For sure there is a lot of corruption. I've seen it first hand when I was myself a tersangka. At every level money has been requested (and refused... which unfortunately explained why a ridiculous case such as mine went up to the adjudication step, in the hope of extorting me money) and I even remember that I had to say very explicitely to the ketua panitia, a real a*****e, to take a hike when he was insisting for me to give him my oakley sunglasses when I was refusing to give money. He was just disappointed not to be able to grab money and was deseperate to try anything. There was at least 6 witnesses in a ear shot but still, h[/COLOR][COLOR=#333333]e just had no shame. Expectation for money were obviously high, but not higher than if I would have been a rich indonesian. [/COLOR]
      It's not much the passport you hold which makes a decision in an indonesian court. It's the amount of money you poor in the system or the knowledge you have of the law and solidity of your case which makes it. If you don't put money to please the players at the meja hijau or if you don't know very well the law (and are obviously ready to go through much more hassles), then you have no chance. And this is valid for WNI and WNA alike.

      So in short, dismissing any legal steps just because "as a foreigner it won't give me any result" is misleading and untrue.
      Last edited by atlantis; 21-05-13, 08:47.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by bad_azz
        @ atlantis I was in no way off topic- I fully addressed the topic.
        My comment was re the pre-nup only.
        I was not discussing the legal system per se
        [COLOR=#333333]So :P stick that in your pipe & smoke it x[/COLOR]
        It is ME who was dragging the thread off topic, not you. ([COLOR=#333333]Since it is way off topic, I invite any of you two to open a new thread if you want,... means "any further discussion on the fairness of indonesian justice").
        [/COLOR]You may have not been willing to discuss the legal system per se, but nothing in your post indicates it (you wrote "[COLOR=#333333]Also as Joe says - don't pin hopes on the justice system finding against a national in favour of a foreigner)...[/COLOR]and Joe Writeson's post doesn't seem to be restricted to prenup issues. Even if restricted to prenup agreement, your comments concerning WNI vsWNA in the indonesian system, remain misleading and untrue. The prenup agreement works pretty well in court and this regardless of the racial origin of the penggugat/tergugat. If you have any cases proving otherwise, please share the references of the keputusan. I will be happy to study it. It is definitively not what I have observed and again, I will be pleased to forward you or anyone, references of court cases where foreigners with or without prenup have seen a settlement which doesn't seem to be bad for the foreigner.

        For your information, your post, in its original content, has been reported by a user.
        Last edited by atlantis; 21-05-13, 12:23.

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        • #19
          Sadly, I do not have a Pre Nup for my marriage but I wonder what is my loss? The hint is that the main benefit is for the Indonesian spouse to buy property (which he/she would not be able to do otherwise) and to do so with money provided and invested by the WNA ex Pat (which I thought was illegal).

          I remain to be convinced that having a Pre-Nup is of benefit at all to a WNA ex Pat and that not having one is a bar to matrimonial litigation (divorce proceedings and action) at a later date, either at the time of a divorce happening or sometime afterwards when the 'dust has settled'. In my own case, i was not fully aware of Indonesian law as to how it affected me or have the financial means of hiring an Indonesian lawyer to help my cause plus lack of long term residency. As I see it, having a KITAP five years residency and a little bit of money plus feedbacks on this Forum might encourage some of us that the 'fight is worth fighting for' - with and without a Pre-Nup and - with or without an Indonesian Lawyer aiding and abetting us.

          Yes or No?

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          • #20
            The pre-nup is nothing to do with litigation between spouses.

            It's a mechanism to enable the WNI to buy and sell property/land. Nothing more or less than that. Doesn't matter where the money came from either.

            If your family won't be buying any land, then don't worry about it.

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            • #21
              IS THE FOLLOWING CORRECT?

              In the event that you’re living abroad, or your marriage will be performed outside Indonesia and you cannot come to Indonesia just to sign a prenuptial agreement, you still can have a legally recognized prenuptial agreement by meeting the following legal formalities:

              • The prenup must state that it is governed by the laws of the Republic of Indonesia.
              • The prenup must be attested by the consulate/embassy staff at the Consulate in the country (after being signed) where the marriage is performed and reported/registered at the Indonesian Consulate.
              • This can be done when the marriage of the Indonesian citizen to the for?eigner is reported/registered to the Indonesian Embassy/Consulate.
              • The marriage with the prenup needs to be reported at the Civil Registry in Indonesia at a later date with the prenup which it must be done in 30 days upon return to live in Indonesia. together with the prenup signed abroad.


              Is the above correct? And does anyone have any practical experience of this? Does the prenup need to be drafted by an indonesian lawyer/notary?

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