View Full Version : Waarm, you gotta read this.
As my eldest daughter just graduated from kindergarten, and continue her study to 1st grade of elementary, last night we went to her kindergarten teacher's house, just to pay her a visit and gave her some little souvenirs, as our extend gratitude for took care of my kid in two years of kindergarten.
At Bu Is' house, she told us a story, almost unbelievable one, but its true. She told us, she had this cancer, 3-4 stadium cervix cancer, (we knew that previously in some of parent's meeting), and in need to had the surgery soon. Due to financial problem, she couldnt have the medical surgery and went to this Bu Kacong, an alternative healer.
The process really amazing. Bu Is just layed down on her back, and Bu Kacong started to operate her on 3 spots in her back, witnesses by 7 people including Bu Is' sisters and other patients that curious to know about the process. Blood coming and smelled very bad, and Bu Is could feel Bu Kacong's hands inside her body, pulling things as she explained, is the cancer and its roots. The smell is awfull, as its been said the bad the desease is the bad the smell would be. There is no anaesthetic at all, but no pain either.
And you know what, Bu Kacong left some cottons inside Bu Is' body, to absorb other leftover desease and the roots. Then Bu is went home, and will need to meet her again in next week to take the cotton out and cleaning some more of the cancer. During the days, Bu Is went to doctor to see the result, and yes, its reduce from stadium 3-4 to stadium 2B. And there is no wound left at all.
I went home last night, thinking that I should share this story with you today.
I know you would hit me with so many medical logical and rational explainations on how nonsense it was, especially about the cotton left inside, but I just gotta write this for you. :smile2:
waarmstrong
19-07-10, 11:37
More that "almost unbelievable," the story, not withstanding the teller's sincerity, is completely unbelievable. No need to a technical explanation; the most likely truth of the matter is that patient was misdiagnosed in the first place and the luck Ibu "healer" was able to bootstrap that into a miraculous "cure" with her side-show theatrics. The audience was duped. You, as well, for willingly accepting hearsay to here present such claptrap as true.
But if it is repeated often enough, it will become FACT.
Alia, he thinks this was nothing more than sulap. Bu Kacong must have bribed the doctor to downgrade the diagnosis. In any case since she didn't have money for proper medical procedure, the correct western way to handle it is to resign to fate and die. Better to die than compromise the faith in modern medicine.
More that "almost unbelievable," the story, not withstanding the teller's sincerity, is completely unbelievable. No need to a technical explanation; the most likely truth of the matter is that patient was misdiagnosed in the first place and the luck Ibu "healer" was able to bootstrap that into a miraculous "cure" with her side-show theatrics. The audience was duped. You, as well, for willingly accepting hearsay to here present such claptrap as true.
aaaahhhh... waarm..
try to have a big heart to admit that in this universe indeed exists some events that can and can't be explained rationally.. :)
As my eldest daughter just graduated from kindergarten, and continue her study to 1st grade of elementary, last night we went to her kindergarten teacher's house, just to pay her a visit and gave her some little souvenirs, as our extend gratitude for took care of my kid in two years of kindergarten.
At Bu Is' house, she told us a story, almost unbelievable one, but its true. She told us, she had this cancer, 3-4 stadium cervix cancer, (we knew that previously in some of parent's meeting), and in need to had the surgery soon. Due to financial problem, she couldnt have the medical surgery and went to this Bu Kacong, an alternative healer.
The process really amazing. Bu Is just layed down on her back, and Bu Kacong started to operate her on 3 spots in her back, witnesses by 7 people including Bu Is' sisters and other patients that curious to know about the process. Blood coming and smelled very bad, and Bu Is could feel Bu Kacong's hands inside her body, pulling things as she explained, is the cancer and its roots. The smell is awfull, as its been said the bad the desease is the bad the smell would be. There is no anaesthetic at all, but no pain either.
And you know what, Bu Kacong left some cottons inside Bu Is' body, to absorb other leftover desease and the roots. Then Bu is went home, and will need to meet her again in next week to take the cotton out and cleaning some more of the cancer. During the days, Bu Is went to doctor to see the result, and yes, its reduce from stadium 3-4 to stadium 2B. And there is no wound left at all.
I went home last night, thinking that I should share this story with you today.
I know you would hit me with so many medical logical and rational explainations on how nonsense it was, especially about the cotton left inside, but I just gotta write this for you. :smile2:
agree with you, Alia..
cheers :)
:smile2: I knew that would be your answer, Waarm. :smile2:
More that "almost unbelievable," the story, not withstanding the teller's sincerity, is completely unbelievable. No need to a technical explanation; the most likely truth of the matter is that patient was misdiagnosed in the first place and the luck Ibu "healer" was able to bootstrap that into a miraculous "cure" with her side-show theatrics. The audience was duped. You, as well, for willingly accepting hearsay to here present such claptrap as true.
^THIS.
I also feel like I'm missing a part of the story. Did the 'healer' actually reach up inside of the sick woman's vagina and claim to be pulling the cancer out 'by the root'?! Horrifying. I have no doubt that the sick woman went through this 'procedure', and that there was a lot of blood involved, but, sweetbabyjeebus, even the 'doctor' said she wasn't cured and that she still had cancer. What kind of healing is that? I feel bad for the woman-- it must be horrifying to know that you have serious cancer but cannot pay for the treatment. People who prey upon sick people, purporting to 'heal' them while performing unsafe quasi-medical procedures, are despicable.
No Sam, the procedure of that alternative healing was not even touch vagina at all. The 3 spots of surgery were in the back of Bu Is' body, arround her waist. And yes, the doctor (medical doctor) downgrade the stage of cancer after the healing. And indeed, as the healer said, Bu Is needs to be back in a week to take out the cotton inside and some more cleaning of the cancer as it couldnt be just vanish only with one time treatment.
I know how it sound, and I dont expect you to believe it. Its everything not hygiene too, as everyone could also came inside the room and see how it went, but it happened. And no, if you think that healer lady just want to have the money from those sick people, its also not so true, as what the sick people shall give to the healer is up to them. She didnt charge it her self.
There is another thread next door, Sam. Waarm started 'More Quackery from the Jakarta Globe'. Thats why I wrote this one especially for him. :smile2:
No Sam, the procedure of that alternative healing was not even touch vagina at all. The 3 spots of surgery were in the back of Bu Is' body, arround her waist. And yes, the doctor (medical doctor) downgrade the stage of cancer after the healing. And indeed, as the healer said, Bu Is needs to be back in a week to take out the cotton inside and some more cleaning of the cancer as it couldnt be just vanish only with one time treatment.
I know how it sound, and I dont expect you to believe it. Its everything not hygiene too, as everyone could also came inside the room and see how it went, but it happened. And no, if you think that healer lady just want to have the money from those sick people, its also not so true, as what the sick people shall give to the healer is up to them. She didnt charge it her self.
There is another thread next door, Sam. Waarm started 'Another Quackery from Jakarta Globe'. Thats why I wrote this one especially for him. :smile2:
First, the idea of anyone performing any kind of surgical procedure in their home without sterile equipment and actual medical training is grossly irresponsible. Second, I don't understand how back surgery could have anything to do with cervical cancer. The Kindergarten teacher does know where her cervix is, right? Because it's most definitely *not* on her back. Third, the description of a putrid smell, three spots on the back, and blood sounds like, perhaps (if it's all true) the 'healer' lanced some sebaceous cysts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebaceous_cyst)-- cysts are most definitely *not* tumors or cancerous, but they are gross and they do produce the effects that the Kindergarten teacher described.
If you've got a strong stomach, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwFWyJ3Zfc&feature=related
Alia, please....
Its hard to convince people to believe in such thing if they dont see this directly. Sometimes fraud 'dukun'/healer are there and performed malpractice instead....
Its hard to explain metaphysical topics in logical terms, beside, how would you explain Santet phenomenon to "ordinary" or newbie Bule ? very hard to convince....
aaaahhhh... waarm..
try to have a big heart to admit that in this universe indeed exists some events that can and can't be explained rationally.. :)
But there IS a perfectly rational explanation.
The healer is a fraud.
And the woman was either initially misdiagnosed or experienced something that modern day medicine knows all about, and it's called the Placebo effect.
I didn't mean this story to be believed, Kratos.
Its hard to believe, not just to foreigners, but also some of Indonesian ourselves. And its up to you to see it. I have no explaination to offer either. This is just a story, on how people here would do anything to cure from deseases. Not just from medical treatment, and you have to realize, we are here still live in poverty, where a lot of people trying to find the cheapest way to cure from illness.
The lady could be a fraud. The kindergarten teacher could be was just being misdiagnosed by a doctor. And she will again suffer for more from this desease. But I wish this is not a fraud, and the doctor really correct in diagnose the downgraded cancer, and I really wish her to be free from cancer in any other treatments she had, incl this alternative healing one.
Don't believe it if you like. Wish her well and cured, that's all I want.
the correct western way to handle it is to resign to fate and die. Better to die than compromise the faith in modern medicine.
In more enlightened parts of the west we have health services free to those who can't pay the bill themselves. And that doesn't mean being relegated to 'third class' hospital wards, either.
waarmstrong
19-07-10, 18:07
aaaahhhh... waarm..
try to have a big heart to admit that in this universe indeed exists some events that can and can't be explained rationally.. :)
Maybe, but this is certainly not one of them.
As for Injun's comment, The poor are first victimized by a health delivery system driven more by money than a desire to heal the sick. second, they are victimized by quacks praying on their poverty and misfortune. The quacks also are most often in it for the money. That's the reality, but the sad state of the delivery system does not elevate quackery into an alternative medicine category. From them one gets only false hope and the placebo effect.
waarmstrong
19-07-10, 18:27
There was not surgery, but rather a theatrical performance. Google is overflowing with examples of this very common fraud.
The turnip truck has long departed. As I used to say in my youth, "Get real, man (& women)."
Lets dream:
Bu Is, a kindergarten teacher, is called to her family doctor's surgery because a cervical smear has given cause for concern. The doctor refers her to a specialist at the local hospital where she is examined within 7 days of the referral. This examination confirms there are problems so she has a further series of tests the next day and an operation is scheduled for the following week. After the op, the consultant informs Bu Is that because the cancer was stopped at an early stage there should be no relapse but she is scheduled for a follow-up examination a month later and a final appointment within six months, at which point she is removed from the consultant's list. She is not charged for anything other than a post-op prescription item.
I changed the name and occupation, but that is roughly what happened to a relative of mine a couple of years ago. If the political will is there such a scenario doesn't have to be a dream.
Hombre de Maiz
19-07-10, 19:54
It is part and parcel of the religious, superstitious mind to mechanically ascribe to the supernatural that which is not yet known. That we are ignorant of how it happened is in no way proof of supernatural or divine agency. That we are presently ignorant of how it happened is in no way proof that we are to remain ignorant in the future.
In more enlightened parts of the west we have health services free to those who can't pay the bill themselves. And that doesn't mean being relegated to 'third class' hospital wards, either.
Unfortunately Indonesia does not have that free service. Everything here is cash. If you don't have the cash for modern medicine and refuse to entertain other methods because it defies modern sensibilities, then your only other option in the case of Cancer is die.
It could very well be placebo, but I will do such placebo if it's indeed powerful enough to downgrade cancer, especially if it costs next to nothing.
Maybe, but this is certainly not one of them.
As for Injun's comment, The poor are first victimized by a health delivery system driven more by money than a desire to heal the sick. second, they are victimized by quacks praying on their poverty and misfortune. The quacks also are most often in it for the money. That's the reality, but the sad state of the delivery system does not elevate quackery into an alternative medicine category. From them one gets only false hope and the placebo effect.
If you read all these accounts, just about anybody who has any semblance of education and some wealth go to a modern hospital first. If the lady in the story had the cash, there is no question that she would have gone for modern surgery. People only go to alternative methods when modern medicine can't do much more, or when they're out of money, or both.
waarmstrong
19-07-10, 22:04
Because the destitute, desperate go to quacks, does not make quacks any less quacky. As was mentioned above the sham artists are despicable.
The solution is a government that gives back in the form of a viable health care system, rather than pocketing the money.
This being Indonesia, I don't recall anybody opposing government-managed health care system that covers everybody. If you think Indonesians prefer witch doctoring rather than free modern medicine, you're crazy.
This being Indonesia, I don't expect to see the gov't having enough money to afford it, not within my lifetime.
The fact of the matter is, while most of these alternative medicines don't work, a small minority do. There is a reason why those who can afford it go to the hospital first.
The guy I knew was in and out of hospitals practically his whole life. His parents could afford it, but the fact was there was no effective modern cure for his condition. I believe they tried all sorts of alternative medicine until they found one that worked.
It is part and parcel of the religious, superstitious mind to mechanically ascribe to the supernatural that which is not yet known. That we are ignorant of how it happened is in no way proof of supernatural or divine agency. That we are presently ignorant of how it happened is in no way proof that we are to remain ignorant in the future.
Exactly. An example is someone trying to explain how electricity works, to a tribe of people who had never seem it before it would appear magical or divinely inspired power, now that we have knowledge of electrons and atoms we understand better that electric magnetic forces are rather earthly and mundane.
Maybe, but this is certainly not one of them.
As for Injun's comment, The poor are first victimized by a health delivery system driven more by money than a desire to heal the sick. second, they are victimized by quacks praying on their poverty and misfortune. The quacks also are most often in it for the money. That's the reality, but the sad state of the delivery system does not elevate quackery into an alternative medicine category. From them one gets only false hope and the placebo effect.
Well said.
Unfortunately Indonesia does not have that free service. Everything here is cash. If you don't have the cash for modern medicine and refuse to entertain other methods because it defies modern sensibilities, then your only other option in the case of Cancer is die.
It could very well be placebo, but I will do such placebo if it's indeed powerful enough to downgrade cancer, especially if it costs next to nothing.
If you read all these accounts, just about anybody who has any semblance of education and some wealth go to a modern hospital first. If the lady in the story had the cash, there is no question that she would have gone for modern surgery. People only go to alternative methods when modern medicine can't do much more, or when they're out of money, or both.
Problem is these quacks relieve them of what money they do have, without that false option perhaps they could stretch the finances to proper health care, or at the very end money which could be better utilized on making their life comfortable.
exiledgooner
20-07-10, 08:20
In more enlightened parts of the west we
an amazing piece of pomposity. la di da we la di more enlighened la di bloody da
the west is no more enlightened than the rest of the world. in fact we're just as morally repugnant if not more so. throw in decadent, soft and corrupt as well
we have a free health care for which we're taxed to the bloody hilt. minimum 30% is it now in the uk or higher plus 20% vat? highest tax rates in the eu? highest petrol costs in eu? and no one says a bloody thing. while asylum seekers come over and sponge we have old ladies freezing in winter time cos they cant afford their heating bills. france is deciding what its citizens can and cannot wear. america has free speech but slag off israel, well look at what happened to that komodo dragon faced journo recently
more enlightened west...do me a favour. why are a million leaving every year to be replaced by the rest of the worlds pond life?
But there IS a perfectly rational explanation.
The healer is a fraud.
And the woman was either initially misdiagnosed or experienced something that modern day medicine knows all about, and it's called the Placebo effect.
KW, first thing first,
If the healer was a fraud, then s/he would have probably been in prison by now, since there would be many unsatisfied patients reporting him/her to the police.
Some people were born with remarkable gifts, extraordinary abilities. They have the ability to cure people not by medical treatments, but by what you call as the alternative healing. Some has the ability to see things that cannot be seen by common people, you may call it as sixth sense or whatever, others can predict the future, and lately the emerge of many indigo children. How do you explain these phenomenons? Aside from whether the abilities were all true or not, their existence can’t be denied. It has already been a part of Indonesian society. Not only in Indonesia too, I suppose.
Indonesian people believed in traditional medication since long time ago. That is why we have herbal recipes also known as jamu which was proven to be effective at that time as the medicine. As time gone by, the existence of jamu still cannot be eliminated. It is still consumed by Indonesian people.
Same thing goes for the alternative healers. Have you heard of ‘sangkal putung’? a person who has the ability to fix a broken bone? Many people whose broken legs or arms, they prefer going to sangkal putung to a doctor. Why? Well, return to the finance issue again. Sangkal putung is cheap and the person who conducts the treatment really can fix the broken bone. Not the severe one, though. Mostly only broken arms or legs. The kind of treatment they use is by massaging the broken area using some kind of oil. In a week or two, a month tops, the bone is fixed again. Is that another theatrical performance again? to my knowledge, when I accompanied my mom to the lady who sucked her kidney stones out, there were no funny rituals or weird smell of a burning incense. The room where she performed her medication was clean with a bed at the corner where the patient laid. Next to the bed there was a small table, with alcohol, bandage and cotton on it. Not very theatrical, wasn’t it? How could she give a tremendous effect of blood and kidney stones?
Anyway, as long as the patient has positive attitude towards the treatment, it will play a big part in the person’s recovery process. Isn’t it what placebo effect all about? At the end, just like what Alia said. It is about hope. If someone went to a doctor and the doctor could not cure the sickness, and then the patient heard about someone else who has the ability to do so and the patient chose to go there, you think you will be the bad guy by telling the person that it was just a bunch of sh.. no such treatment, it was all fraud and that instanly ruined the patient hope?
Wow… banyak ya commentnya.. cape deh.. :faint:
Bones heal themselves. Naught to do with a massage by a special healer, which can cause more problems.
the west is no more enlightened than the rest of the world.
If you actually read what I wrote instead of going off at half cock, I was making the point that SOME parts of the west (e.g. most EU countries, NZ, Can) are more enlightened than OTHER parts of the west (e.g. US) when it comes to looking after its citizens and my criteria for judging such enlightenment is a social health care system. You clearly feel that paying fewer taxes are more important than a social health care system. Hope you don't suffer any serious and prolonged illness in your old age.
This being Indonesia, I don't expect to see the gov't having enough money to afford it, not within my lifetime.
.
I believe that what is now paid out in fuel subsidy would cover free essential health care.
:faint:
Hahaha .., Uline ..!! You just make my day with this one ..! Lucu banget ...!! :first:
:hug:
I believe that what is now paid out in fuel subsidy would cover free essential health care.
I believe rakyat is not going to accept free essential health care if it comes at the cost of steep increases in all prices that comes after the elimination of fuel subsidy. You should know by now that most Indonesians are fatalists, who would take their chances with the occasional illness rather than paying higher prices every day.
Hahaha .., Uline ..!! You just make my day with this one ..! Lucu banget ...!! :first:
:hug:
you are welcome, Alia.
glad i could make your day. take care, girl! :wink2:
Problem is these quacks relieve them of what money they do have, without that false option perhaps they could stretch the finances to proper health care, or at the very end money which could be better utilized on making their life comfortable.
What little money they have is not going to cover for modern medicine, even with some serious stretching.
Sure what little money left can be used to make life a little more comfortable toward the end, but I bet you that living is more comfortable than dying. If there's a 5% chance that somebody can cure you without breaking the bank, then it's actually illogical to just give up.
Hombre de Maiz
20-07-10, 17:51
..., I was making the point that SOME parts of the west (e.g. most EU countries, NZ, Can) are more enlightened than OTHER parts of the west (e.g. US) when it comes to looking after its citizens and my criteria for judging such enlightenment is a social health care system...
Looking at a more complete and less tendentious picture of development, such as the UNDP Human Development Index, you'd see that availability of healthcare is only one among many factors that go into determining whether a state is "looking after its citizens". The 2009 UNDP HDI report placed the United States in 13th place while the UK was placed in 21st place. In countries with populations greater than 100 million people, the U.S. places 2nd. In addition, per capita and in absolute terms the U.S. spends more than the UK in healthcare for its citizens.
waarmstrong
20-07-10, 19:30
I believe rakyat is not going to accept free essential health care if it comes at the cost of steep increases in all prices that comes after the elimination of fuel subsidy. You should know by now that most Indonesians are fatalists, who would take their chances with the occasional illness rather than paying higher prices every day.
Its been a few years since independence and Indonesia is blessed with an abundance of resources, ie natural wealth, that some nations can only dream about. Others have parlayed less into social systems that include universal health care. I think its more a matter of will, character, and priorities rather than affordability. Of course, as with so many things here, the lack of character manifested in the cleptocracy that runs the place is perhaps the biggest impediment. Similar to the USA is some ways.
As a westerner I must say that Warm and Samantha offer the most practical explanation given medical science today. However, I remember doing some reading a few decades back concerning this very thing occurring in the Philippines. This type of procedure is quite well known there also, it's just how people do things without access to proper medical training. The stories are always corroborated by plenty of witnesses, both native and westerner. My wife, although university trained (Bandung) and being raised upper middle class still expects me to Karok her for masuk angin (did I spell that correctly?). I haven't witnessed anything like this but have "seen and felt things" in my life that raised the hair on the back of my neck. My wife will say she doesn't believe in ghosts but then talk about experiences with Jin; I just chalk it up to people having different life experiences and how they rationalize them. I guess the real "proof of the pudding" will be to monitor the lady's continued condition eh? I'd be interested in any updates.
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