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For those who may think the Medical facilities here and the abilities and ethics of some of the Doctors and Hospitals at least, are excellent, this link quoting the sometimes tragic experiences of individuals may enlighen you.
The article on Diagnostic fraud and Surgery for profit is particularly disturbing...:scared:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/03/14/by-way-how-indonesian-malaysian-doctors-treated-their-patient.html
I normally don't rely on doctors . What I see in my country is that so many of the students at the age to enter an university prefer to study medicine , because doctors are the ones who earn more money than any other , in average . So a big percentage of the doctors there are primarily interested in becoming rich . I don't know about Indonesia , but I think surgery here is relatively expensive and I am very cautious with the doctors prescriptions .
stt_cibubur
22-03-10, 18:52
After reading the link from Om..the husband was bit stupid too..if his wife keep complaining about back pain, why didn't he act and requested for CT scan ( post operation) himself rather than waiting to be told by doctor!!!
I always curious and asking as much as I can and become Yapper IF I am not satisfied and the doctors explanation does not match with the Scan result...
I don't in the main either Marcus tho' I do have regular contact with my Australian Doctors for reviews of a current Medical condition.
I did consult with a local Specialist in the Executive part of a Specialist Hospital with a supposedly good reputation here recently and her ignorance in some Medical matters astounded me!
I ended up having to educate her on the dangers of one particular Medicine which she prescribed for me, and her examination was totally inadequate, I could have done a better job myself. Tho' I must say my bule status gave me the Royal carpet treatment including a personally guided tour of the facility whilst her other patients had to sit and wait longer I might add...
Note; It seems you and I are the only two who are reasonably concious of our health and take an interest in what is going on within Indonesia, interesting, perhaps having Insurance gives a false sense of security to those with it. I wonder if they really know about what actually happens with a stroke or Cardiac arrest here, I would be dead before the ambulance, if it arrived at all, ever got to me, hence istriku's education of CPR... thump on the chest like this so many times then, and then blow into the mouth twice! What, tidak apa2 berapa kali ini if you forget, just bloody do it any way you can... and if it's a major stroke, just put a pillow over my face and hold it there for 5 mins ... :lol:
After reading the link from Om..the husband was bit stupid too..if his wife keep complaining about back pain, why didn't he act and requested for CT scan ( post operation) himself rather than waiting to be told by doctor!!!
I always curious and asking as much as I can and become Yapper IF I am not satisfied and the doctors explanation does not match with the Scan result...
Even in the West many people will not question their Doctors, a phenomena that I'm glad to say is being slowly overcome and actually encouraged by a younger generation of Medicos.
Here on the other hand, the old cliche of Doctors are Gods don't question them is still mainstream.
Do you really think they would have orderred another scan and taken the risk of proving themselves wrong, it's quite probable they knew the woman was paralysed before they stitched her back up again, In fact I'm sure of it!
stt_cibubur
22-03-10, 20:34
Even in the West many people will not question their Doctors, a phenomena that I'm glad to say is being slowly overcome and actually encouraged by a younger generation of Medicos.
Here on the other hand, the old cliche of Doctors are Gods don't question them is still mainstream.
Do you really think they would have orderred another scan and taken the risk of proving themselves wrong, it's quite probable they knew the woman was paralysed before they stitched her back up again, In fact I'm sure of it!
Well...in that case I am the rebel..LOL...I will question every single word come out from the doctors/nurses...If I am paying lots of money I want to know everything....The procedures, the medicines, the treatments, the side effect, etc.
For a real experience, just recently (two weeks ago ) I deliver my baby and had C section cut. After the one hour operation, I was so relieved and very thankful to my doctor who studied and practiced medicine in Australia. Then came a nurse to check my blood pressure, she said my blood pressure is 200 over 100 and its too high but I was a bit hesitant since I didnt really felt the symptoms for having high BP. After she is gone my mum- who is a doctor from back home, took out her own BP apparatus and checked my BP, it was normal but few mins later, the nurse came back with the medicine,and mum seeing the medicine told me don't take that, that's for lowering your BP. I asked for the head nurse to recheck my BP and it was after all, just normal.. A silly mistake that can be fatal. What if I took it?! My BP will collapse. What if my mum
was not there? Scary thought...
And another bad experience, my aunt was in the most expensive hospital in Semarang for weeks and they said she only had gastritis. I flew ASAP from the Philippines to see her and I cant believe what I saw- She is already in edematous state- retaining water in her body. I checked her chemistry result ( I can read since Im a med tech by education) and saw that her liver profile and kidney profile is 4 times the normal value. I asked the doctor and they said she needs operation because she have stones in her bladder. I know for sure that if she will be cut, she wont survive. I immediately flew her back to the Philippines the next day and was diagnose of having Multiple Myeloma- a very rare blood disease. In fact, the hospital in semarang had the machine and the result for the test specific for Multiple Myeoloma but her doctor was not able to read it or maybe they cant...
... and if it's a major stroke, just put a pillow over my face and hold it there for 5 mins ... :lol:
OK Om....Please tell the missus...'I will be there' to the tune of.......
Dr. Jack Kevorkian.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
If we can we have an Expat in Indo discount..... count me in !
David
OK Om....Please tell the missus...'I will be there' to the tune of.......
Dr. Jack Kevorkian.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian
If we can we have an Expat in Indo discount..... count me in !
David
Here is our Australian counterpart in the link below ... Actually for me, this is a very serious topic having worked with the aged and observed first hand many uneccesarily slow and lingerring deaths, I can remember one in particular to this day.
I know what Mx to organise, it's mainly a question of assistance as that's often needed when the time comes to make the decision for those whose awareness and beliefs allow them the freedom of making it.
But I digress as usual ...
http://www.exitinternational.net/
I saw a program recently that claimed many more lives are being saved by compressing down one after another and so on onto the chest not using artificial respiration. It is apparently more effective to keep on pumping as opposed to pausing and blowing into the patients mouth. Here is what I found through Wikipedia:
Compression only resuscitation / Cardiocerebral resuscitation (CCR)
The traditional International Liaison Committee on Resuscitation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Liaison_Committee_on_Resuscitation) approach described above has been challenged in recent years by advocates for compression-only CPR, also known as cardiocerebral resuscitation (CCR). This technique is simply chest compressions without artificial respiration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_respiration). The respiration component of CPR has been a topic of major controversy over the past decade. The CCR method has been championed by the University of Arizona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Arizona)'s Sarver Heart Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sarver_Heart_Center&action=edit&redlink=1). A study by the university[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#cite_note-20) claimed a 300% greater success rate over standard CPR.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#cite_note-21) The exceptions were in the case of drowning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning) or drug overdose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_overdose).
In March 2007, a Japanese study in the medical journal The Lancet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lancet) presented strong evidence that compressing the chest, not mouth-to-mouth (MTM) ventilation, is the key to helping someone recover from cardiac arrest.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#cite_note-22) An editorial by Gordon Ewy MD (a proponent of CCR) in the same issue of The Lancet called for an interim revision of the ILCOR Guidelines based on the results of the Japanese study, but the next scheduled revision of the Guidelines was not until 2010. However, on March 30, 2008, the American Heart Association broke away from the ILCOR position and stated that compression-only CPR works as well as, and sometimes better than, traditional CPR.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#cite_note-23)
The method of delivering chest compressions remains the same, as does the rate (100 per minute), but the rescuer delivers only the compression element which, the University of Arizona claims, keeps the bloodflow moving without the interruption caused by MTM respiration. It has also been claimed that the use of compression only delivery increases the chances of lay person delivering CPR.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiopulmonary_resuscitation#cite_note-EMS37-6-24)
While I understand your concerns, you state that you did not feel any symptoms for high blood pressure. That's because there are none! That is also why hypertension is known as the "Silent Killer." Furthermore, blood pressure can vary very quickly, especially if you are nervous so you cannot blame the nurse. I have had this problem for many years. Here are my typical readings taken every hour
5am 182 106 47
Medication
6am 157 88 49
7am 161 89 44
8am 132 81 47
9am 155 80 48
10am 126 70 56
11am 114 69 55
12pm 154 84 55
1pm 130 80 54
2pm 117 72 56
3pm 146 81 55
4pm 116 71 58
5pm 116 66 59
6pm 140 78 56
7pm 133 65 60
8pm 128 67 60
9pm 150 86 56
10pm 149 85 55
11pm 149 63 56
For a real experience, just recently (two weeks ago ) I deliver my baby and had C section cut. After the one hour operation, I was so relieved and very thankful to my doctor who studied and practiced medicine in Australia. Then came a nurse to check my blood pressure, she said my blood pressure is 200 over 100 and its too high but I was a bit hesitant since I didnt really felt the symptoms for having high BP. After she is gone my mum- who is a doctor from back home, took out her own BP apparatus and checked my BP, it was normal but few mins later, the nurse came back with the medicine,and mum seeing the medicine told me don't take that, that's for lowering your BP. I asked for the head nurse to recheck my BP and it was after all, just normal.. A silly mistake that can be fatal. What if I took it?! My BP will collapse. What if my mum
was not there? Scary thought...
And another bad experience, my aunt was in the most expensive hospital in Semarang for weeks and they said she only had gastritis. I flew ASAP from the Philippines to see her and I cant believe what I saw- She is already in edematous state- retaining water in her body. I checked her chemistry result ( I can read since Im a med tech by education) and saw that her liver profile and kidney profile is 4 times the normal value. I asked the doctor and they said she needs operation because she have stones in her bladder. I know for sure that if she will be cut, she wont survive. I immediately flew her back to the Philippines the next day and was diagnose of having Multiple Myeloma- a very rare blood disease. In fact, the hospital in semarang had the machine and the result for the test specific for Multiple Myeoloma but her doctor was not able to read it or maybe they cant...
It depends upon how long one just pumps the chest for, more than aprox 3 mins and the process of Brain death begins because of anoxia. I personally would prefer to be rescucitated with most if not all of my neurons alive and working and not be a complete vegetable...
It was suggested during my training that according to tests {I don't know how they managed to do the tests but anyway} that a plumbers instrument, the one for unblocking kitchen sinks, is more effective for pumping the chest than using one's hands, but I don't carry one around with me, it's too big for my pocket or the glove box ... :lol:
[QUOTE=exbrit;66479]While I understand your concerns, you state that you did not feel any symptoms for high blood pressure. That's because there are none! That is also why hypertension is known as the "Silent Killer." Furthermore, blood pressure can vary very quickly, especially if you are nervous so you cannot blame the nurse. I have had this problem for many years.
Sorry but this is wrong.
There definately are symptoms of high blood pressure, usually they include blurred or double vision, nausea, headache, labored breathing, and dizziness, but you are correct in saying that it is called the Silent Killer however it would be more accurate to describe the reason behind this is because these symptoms are mild, and most people do not pay attention and recognise them for what they are.
Blood pressure typically can vary minute by minute depending upon what one is actually doing, at rest, smokin a fag, having sex, we all know of that one eh, any activity at all.
To gain a more accurate reading for the Doctors, it is far better to do a lying and standing BP one followed by the other.
As one who has taken many BP reading using a stethoscope I can assure you that in some patients it is not to difficult to make a mistake, far too many Doctors and Nurses rely upon a quick count then record the subjective reading, I'm not taking about the modern digital equipment which personally I do not have 100% trust in.
I find that my Indonesian friends and colleagues, most of whom are educated and sensible people, simply never question the advice of a doctor or healthcare professional.
I find that my Indonesian friends and colleagues, most of whom are educated and sensible people, simply never question the advice of a doctor or healthcare professional.
Plus I can count on it like I count on the sun to rise in the morning that if I or another doesn't feel that great one day, the question asked is "Have you been to a doctor yet"? When the reply is no, "Why not"? follows. After that is answered of course "You should go" finishes the sequence. Most of the time people are sick here it is some kind of flu or they have the runs and an upset stomach. For the flu the best thing to do is drink plenty of liquids and as you don't normally want to be too active in that state, don't be. People still take "medicine" to "cure" themself. What they don't know is it doesn't get rid of the flu it just masks it by relieving the symptoms. That of course is common in the west too. At the drop of a hat people go to a doctor. I haven't even taken drugs for the runs except for in an extreme case where it was just taking too long to clear. Usually it seems to run its course in a few days without anything. Of course blood in it is the red flag one must seek proper medicine and anything that is persistant or seems out of the ordinary should send one to a physician.
Again I agree with Pimpin, despite the insulting and infractionable PM he just sent me... one clarification is in order though, if the blood is fresh and brightly coloured red, it's often just an indication of what is commonly referred to as Piles.
On the other hand a dark coloured blood with mucus can possibly be a sign of serious Colon issues eg; the big CA and ought to be investigated asap. Any change in Bowel habits that persist ought to be investigated.
Hahahaha come on, it was funny. The sentence I quoted from you was begging for it.
No, it wasn't funny as a PM, if you had posted it publically with a laughing icon :lol: or even my favourite sarcstic icon :whistle: I probably wouldn't have taken offense, seriously!
:focus:
Interesting thread which can open a whole new insight to some of the more unscrupulous or incompetent Doctors in the medical profession, such as the Doctor in the US giving pain killing and addictive shots to his patients at $5000 a go, this caused one patient to commit suicide, this did not cause the doctors downfall, but the insurance investigators looked into why he was giving these shots weekly rather than monthly, investigations revealed that his income in 2 years had gone from 1.5 million dollars to over 12 million dollars, then there was the nice kindly doctor in the UK who is thought to have murdered over 100 old people for their money, then there was the Professor at the hospital where my Sister was senior nurse in the operating theatre, checking the patients blood pressure after the Micro surgery the blood pressure on 3 patients was dangerously low, the professor had unwitingly severed a artery in all cases, he was eventually given paid holiday then retired. I think one could go on forever with medical horror stories, you pays your money and hope for the best, Doctors can bury their mistakes.
My biggest beef with the hospitals here so far is that they will ALWAYS prescribe medicine. Not just one pill either. My son will have a mild cough and my wife, being a concerned mother, will take my son to the hospital. The doctor will then prescribe 4 times of medicine. Every time she takes my kids to the hospital, it's always the same medicine and diagnosis.
Never less than 3 scripts, I had a mark on my back which I couldnt see, my wife was a bit worried and nagged me to go to the Doctors, the doctor said it was normal old age, nothing wrong but still tried to flog me some cream. In the UK its the other way round, they wont give you anything unless your on your last breath
No, it wasn't funny as a PM, if you had posted it publically with a laughing icon :lol: or even my favourite sarcstic icon :whistle: I probably wouldn't have taken offense, seriously!
:focus:
Ok. Im sorry you were upset with it. Heres at least a belated one
:whistle:
I always thought why we have maintenance manuals(with periodic preventive checks) for airplanes and even for cars , but not for the human body . I always search for books about health and most of the times don't find anything good . The best I have (The Johns Hopkins Complete Home Guide to Symptoms & Remedies) I saw only once in a big book store . From my experience I think everybody must check at least 3 doctors for a serious sickness and search for information in the internet/reference books . I once had a disease which more than 6 specialists didn't find the solution for it . For about 20 years I searched for the solution myself , and found it .
Dont know Marcus if reading up to find out if you have a problem is a good idea, when I was at school my pals mother had a big Medical book, anyway on a rainy day with nothing to do we read it, my pal was convinced he had Syphilis, dont know how we were only 12 years old at the time
Nurses are notorious for self diagnosis, when I was a Student I took my own blood pressure once and subsequently rang my Doc at the time in a panic as it was sky high, to me, he laughed his tits off and told me to stop doing it...:lol:
I always research any advice, treatment or Prescriptions given to me by any Doctors, including the ones I see in Oz and on more than one occasion have discoverred that they were wrong.
I would encourage anyone to do the same, then a more informed decision can be made in any dicussions with your Medico's, and this has an empowering psychological effect which can only enhance a more positive outcome, even if just as a placebo.
Tho' I do not recommend self diagnosis without any formal Medical opinion being sought at all for the average person!
Luckily My personal GP tolerates me really well and gives me a wide degee of flexibility as she knows exactly what my attitude is tho' she wasn't to pleased when I had Denque here and refused to go to the hospital as the local Doc advised...but in any event the local said they would only keep me hydrated and give me Panadol and I was fortunate in that it was a first exposure not to severe which usually doesn't develop into the hemorrhagic form, Information that I had gathered prior from reputable Internet sites, so it was an educated risk, besides I hate Hospitals and unless I have my Uniform on, I feel nauseus in them, funny that... :lol:
Omdafyd I agree that we cannot do anything serious without seeing doctors. What I meant is : reading information for prevention and when already sick , reading to know if the doctors are saying/prescribing coherent suggestions/medicines related to one's sickness . In my case above , It was not a serious sickness neither I took any strong medicine . In other words , I believe we need to share the responsibility of our own health with the doctors .
I meant , reading information for prevention and when already sick , reading to know if the doctors are saying/prescribing coherent suggestions/medicines related to one's sickness .
IMHO, ok not so humble ...:lol: Marcus your approach is absolutely spot on and to be commended, I wish more people would also take the same attitude especially with the prevention side.
waarmstrong
23-03-10, 16:55
... they wont give you anything unless your on your last breath If you are on your last breath, medication would seem kind of pointless.
The USA has taken a big, belated step toward a national health care system. I understand grossing about the system in the UK is a national past time, but from where I sit, it looks pretty good.
If you are on your last breath, medication would seem kind of pointless.
The USA has taken a big, belated step toward a national health care system. I understand grossing about the system in the UK is a national past time, but from where I sit, it looks pretty good.
In that situation, depending upon the individual circumstances, Medication can and does play a significant role, regularly.
Palliative Care in Oz for example, often involves increasingly higher doses of Morphine towards the 'end', aimed of course at maximising the comfort level of the Patient, in effect tho', and this is a fact that I have been personally involved with on more than one occasion, to hasten Death. An unoffical but widespread practice of Euthanasia.
Yes and no Warmie, my father lives in the UK and has waited months, for an appointment in order to see a specialist to assess whether or not he needs a Colonoscopy, luckily for him he didn't as that would have taken further significant periods of waiting, then, if Surgery was required who knows how much longer he would have had to wait.
Australia's Public Health system, touted by some as very good, also involves significant waiting periods for many, on the other hand if one is willing to pay by choosing a private service as I did not so long ago, the procedure is over and done with in two weeks, and the State will subsidise some of the costs.
I believe Canada also has a system considerred to be more concerned with Patient care than profit.
The best aspect of the systems above is that no one will be discreetly taken by Taxi to a run down part of town, still in their hospital gowns clutching a plastic bag with their meagre posessions, and be literally dumped outside of a homeless persons shelteror in a lane way confused and dazed, simply because their Insurance is either non existent, expired or they have reached the cap set by the Insurer.
I believe that some of the best Medical treatment in the World is available in the USA if, and only if one has the means to pay for it ... a sad indictment on that Nation.
If you are on your last breath, medication would seem kind of pointless.
The USA has taken a big, belated step toward a national health care system. I understand grossing about the system in the UK is a national past time, but from where I sit, it looks pretty good.
That's because the rest of the world receives the benefits of the American system. America does more medical R&D than the rest of the world combined. Medicinal products have topped the list of American exports for the last 4 years. When viewed purely on a quality of the treatment received (proper diagnosis, receiving the proper treatment, preventive care, ect.) America ranks exceptionally high in all but 1 category, tops most. What we rank poorly on, which gives us the poor ranking in the WHO and the commonwealth surveys, has nothing to do with the quality of care received. For example, life expectancy. The primary base cause of all deaths in America is simply that we are fat. Then of course there is coverage, we have the least free coverage. However, this ranking evaluation assumes the superiority of UHC and can not be used to prove the superiority of UHC.
Our system, as I see it, has 2 glaring problems. Cost and the chronically ill. The bill being passed will the solve the later but I do not see how it will solve the first at all. The demand for health care is high. Americans pay less taxes and therefore have more expendable income. As long as our system is market driven, I do not see how they can prevent the rising costs.
The problem with decreasing the costs though is that it will also decrease the return on investment, which will in turn decrease R&D. Short term gain at a long term cost.
That's because the rest of the world receives the benefits of the American system. America does more medical R&D than the rest of the world combined. Medicinal products have topped the list of American exports for the last 4 years. When viewed purely on a quality of the treatment received (proper diagnosis, receiving the proper treatment, preventive care, ect.) America ranks exceptionally high in all but 1 category, tops most. What we rank poorly on, which gives us the poor ranking in the WHO and the commonwealth surveys, has nothing to do with the quality of care received. For example, life expectancy. The primary base cause of all deaths in America is simply that we are fat. Then of course there is coverage, we have the least free coverage. However, this ranking evaluation assumes the superiority of UHC and can not be used to prove the superiority of UHC.
Our system, as I see it, has 2 glaring problems. Cost and the chronically ill. The bill being passed will the solve the later but I do not see how it will solve the first at all. The demand for health care is high. Americans pay less taxes and therefore have more expendable income. As long as our system is market driven, I do not see how they can prevent the rising costs.
The problem with decreasing the costs though is that it will also decrease the return on investment, which will in turn decrease R&D. Short term gain at a long term cost.
The answer is clearly stated within your post and glaringly simple to me, 'Americans pay less taxes and therefore have more expendable income.' Increase taxes! and reduce the power to consume by forcing a diversion of some of the personal wealth back to more important issues, the public Health system ... it might contribute to reducing the fat issue also, less hamburgers to eat...:lol:
The answer is clearly stated within your post and glaringly simple to me, 'Americans pay less taxes and therefore have more expendable income.' Increase taxes! and reduce the power to consume by forcing a diversion of some of the personal wealth back to more important issues, the public Health system ... it might contribute to reducing the fat issue also, less hamburgers to eat...:lol:
Increasing public simply reduces private. This hinders growth.The US medical industry is America's fastest growing industry. Increases taxes will decrease the cost, that is true, but it will also decrease growth, decrease R&D, decrease investment, ect. I do not agree with raising taxes as a means to make something cheaper. What you will effectively do is decrease the American's overall financial quality of life to decrease the cost of health care.I am not inherently against social programs, I simply do not believe that UHC, as it is practiced in other countries, is the solution.
While I understand your concerns, you state that you did not feel any symptoms for high blood pressure. That's because there are none! That is also why hypertension is known as the "Silent Killer." Furthermore, blood pressure can vary very quickly, especially if you are nervous so you cannot blame the nurse. I have had this problem for many years. Here are my typical readings taken every hour
5am 182 106 47
No that is not true, you will at least feel a strange heaviness at the back of your head or slight nausea especially if you never had it before.. Maybe in your case, you already neglect the symptoms since you are used to it . Most people who's BP is high and low will have this symptoms. Some just take it for granted and think they dont have symptoms... And the fact that my mum and head nurse rechecked it ASAP as well... I also saw the digital machine in the recovery room stating my BP is 130 over 90 .
And to top it all, I am not hypertensive or never in my life that my BP was high even on my first CS... During CS or in pain it is normal to have your BP as high as 150 but not 200....
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