View Full Version : Chinese-Indonesian marriage. Help!!
Sliced-n-Diced
09-03-10, 20:45
Hi,
I'm stumbling into very new territory for me, and I hope that some of you can give me advice.
I'm English, and I'm engaged to and due to marry a Chinese-Indonesian girl who is currently living in Inodnesia. By English standards I'm not poor, but I certainly am in comparison to my fiance's family.
In the first case it is expected of me to pay for a wedding ceremony in Indonesia. At first this made me feel uncomfortable, as the 300 or so planned guests would pretty much all be from her side, I have however come to terms with this and accepted that this is just the cost of marrying a chinese-indonesian girl. So I thought that maybe £15k would be good enough, and would make everybody happy. I have since learnt that food, hotel (for the ceremony) and decorations alone are looking to cost around £35k. Factoring in a wedding planner, invites, gifts for guests, and who knows what else, we're probably looking at £50k+. Now, regardless of the cost of the wedding, as I realise that gifts from the guests (in the form of ang pao) are likely to pay for the costs of the wedding, I am very uncomfortable with this amount of money being spent, especially because it starts the rest of our lives in a manner which I simply can't support financially. I don't want to set a bad precedent. I wonder what people's views are on this? Should I stand my ground and potentially offend my fiance's family with a 'miserly' £15k, or should I just offer to pay the full amount?
On top of this my fiance's parents want me to invest in Indonsian property before the marriage as a sign of good will, even though we have made it clear that we may not settle in Indonesia. Something of the order of £200k is considered acceptable by them. I'm thinking of something more like £35k to get a small apartment. All I see at the moment is me being asked of money, but admittedly I am on the defensive, as I'm inadvertently being made to feel very small.
Splitting up is simply not an option in my mind. I would rather lose the money than lose my fiance. I am though very interested to hear of other people's opinions, as the only advice I get on this is from my fiance and her parents? I simply can't discuss this with my parents, as I'm sure their opinion of the situation would rapidly sour, and that is certainly not good for long terms relations between my bride and her future in-laws. Does anyone here have experience of chinese-indonesian marriages? What is normal?
Thank you.
Hombre de Maiz
09-03-10, 21:00
Talk to your future wife. Talk some sense and humility into her. Be careful of what you ask for; you might end up marrying her (and her family). I think you should put your foot down, and start being the man, the husband from day zero. A tree that is planted crooked is hard to straighten out.
I agree with #2. There seems to be a real disconnect between the families expectations and what you are comfortable with. If you actually invest in property you could potentially loose it all if the marriage didn't work out.(?) I don't suppose you could move to another country before marrying and therefore avoid all these family pressures? Maybe marry in the country you plan to settle in and come up with some reasons (other than the real ones of course) why that makes sense or is it too late for that?
Another option might be that your money is all tied up at the moment and you will look into buying property when you can get hold of it? In the meantime get outta here.
If I were you I'd do the wedding. My friends told me sometimes you can make money out of it! As for investment in Indonesia I find it ridiculous unless you're loaded. Why they're expecting you to buy a nice house over there, and because of that, you'll probably can only afford to live in smallish apartment in another country?
Thank goodness my family wasn't like that, if they were I'm so ready to cut them off.
If you are really set on marrying this woman then it really is up to her. Is she going to marry you if you "put your foot down" by spending less on the wedding and property ie. apartment and your actions offend her parents? If not Im happy for you, you are willing to give all you have for her because that is exactly what you will be doing. Welcome to the family. If she isn't on your side on this one you can pretty much count on their future demands owning you for the length of your marriage or life, which ever ends first, no matter what country you live in. Nag, nag, nag, nag. It sends shivers up and down my spine.
If she isn't with you on this I highly suggest you reconsider your stand on having to marry her and think of packing it in and be on the lookout for another marriage candidate no matter how attached you are to her. That can be cured and healed with time but a lifetime of unreasonable demands from her and her family are going to eat at you on a very regular basis or at best yearly.
Eeeeeeeeek, what a freaking nightmare!
Nightmarish indeed, and Sliced has not even told us if he is already aware the property would not be on his name.
In the first case it is expected of me to pay for a wedding ceremony in Indonesia.
wrong it is supposed to be the bride that pays.
Now, regardless of the cost of the wedding, as I realise that gifts from the guests (in the form of ang pao) are likely to pay for the costs of the wedding,
No they wont.
At best, you can expect 100,000 Rupiah per guest/couple. Many will just place 10,000 or 50,000 in the Ang pao. if all guests
IF ALL 300 GIVE YOU 100,000 Rupiah,(doubtful) - you'll get 30 Million, or 2500 pounds.
Did you give your fiance a budget ? perhaps you should have.
On top of this my fiance's parents want me to invest in Indonsian property before the marriage as a sign of good will,
They trust you. Are you sure that they are really as wealthy as you think ? this is rather lower class behaviour.
I'd be very wary if I were you, it stinks to me.
Hombre de Maiz
10-03-10, 11:44
I think we need PakRT to dispense some tough, boot-camp talk to this Private so that a man can still be made out of him.
So far the responses can be distilled to i.) you need to wise up, and ii.) you need to get some backbone and assertiveness.
I see a lot of people raising yellow CAUTION flags in this thread. If you are uncomfortable with their expectations .. and you're not even married yet .. you can expect even more of the same (or worse) down the road. Explain your feelings ... and put your fiance on a budget that you can afford !! I like the "my money is tied up" advice too!!
wm
Hombre de Maiz
10-03-10, 12:01
Yellow flag? I would have thrown the player off the pitch (and the bench off the stadium) a long time ago for an off-side before the whistle signaling the start of the match had been blown.
yes, but he already said he didnt want to hear that, he's in LURVE.
Yellow flag? I would have thrown the player off the pitch (and the bench off the stadium) a long time ago for an off-side before the whistle signaling the start of the match had been blown.
Yes, but your the toughest ref I've ever played under, lucky you don't supervise local matches else they would have lynched you by now mite ...
Hombre de Maiz
11-03-10, 12:17
I simply call´em as I see´em, Om.
On a more serious note, here´s some free matrimonial advice. You need to build an impenetrable circle, a veritable fortress around you and your wife. Nothing and no-one gets in. Only you and your wife exist inside the wall. All relationship-critical decisions are made inside the wall. When your future in-laws talk to you about $$, investments, etc., you say that you will take it into account, but that the decision will be made inside the wall by only you and your bride. No one stands between you and your wife, and you defend the impenetrability of the wall fiercely.
If you don't have this agreement from the beginning there is a world of hurt in store for all parties in and outside the wall. I won't enter into matrimony unless this is truely understood and I mean with 100% agreement not with a "yaya".
Hi Sliced-n-Diced,
Has your fiance ever met your parents / family? Has your fiance's family ever met your family (probably through webcams / photos)?
I mean, do they know and understand what kind of work and lifestyle that you do? Are they assuming that you are a rich man coming from a wealthy family?
Maybe you should (if you haven't) be fair to them and tell them what kind of wedding that you can afford.
This is a rather sensitive issue, especially if her family thought that you are one rich English man, so be very polite and nice when talking to them about this issue. Good luck!!
wow! tough mate. you dont want to lose her is understandable. but investing in something as a good will? I never heard of this altho am a chinese indonesian female.
money issues are always very sensitive, in my opinion by contributing 15K if you convert it toRupiah is just enough, more than enough.
which hotel you guys planning to have this party? make sure you know, coz like you said it may end up more than 50k, which i think for 300 guests plus wedding dress, food, etc etc.. is just too much.
I am chinese Indonesian female too..
and yes Im agree with Whopper, that the budget 15k is enough for a wedding ceremony. 50k for just a wedding,.. is kinda insane for me. well you can save the money for the future, what for spend too much money just for a wedding..? well I also think you should talk to ur fiance's parents :)
Love is love and money is money... Yes, if you love her then spending a reasonable amount that you both can agree without undue arm bending is appropriate. But your story sounds like the parents love your money not you or at least the money is of higher importance. This is Indonesia, get ready for a culture shock. Western culture and social norms are out the window.
First as another member suggested, show them who is in-charge now before it is too late. You need to be firm and listen to the voice in the back of your head saying that something is wrong. Invest in Indo property, ya right - did they tell you yet that foreigners can not own property in Indonesia. So the house would be in your wife's name only.
Secondly, don't agree to change your religion (if not already the same). Again it is a power play here. Indonesian law requires that both people getting married are the same religion. It may sound like a small incidental issue. Just change your religion for a day to please the wife and her family. But this is the point where you start losing your barganing power. If you give in here it is all down hill. It may seem like old male doninated society advice, which I am not advocating.
I wonder what happen to TS. I hope we didn't rattle his lurrve :lol:
marrone_pelle
25-03-10, 22:36
i ever worked as a wedding consultant @ famous bridal in Jakarta. I know chinese - indonesian people always has a good taste for their wedding...sometimes it is for prestige. But not at all. I think it depend how you really know your couple and her big family exactly.
I prefer a simple wedding but full of meaning and unforgettable, and using the money for the honeymoon to the beautiful places rather than spend money on a glamour party but just nonsense.
trust me ... people will not remember how fancy your wedding party.
It is about you and your beloved one. and your future.Gud luck..
i ever worked as a wedding consultant @ famous bridal in Jakarta. I know chinese - indonesian people always has a good taste for their wedding...sometimes it is for prestige. But not at all. I think it depend how you really know your couple and her big family exactly.
I prefer a simple wedding but full of meaning and unforgettable, and using the money for the honeymoon to the beautiful places rather than spend money on a glamour party but just nonsense.
trust me ... people will not remember how fancy your wedding party.
It is about you and your beloved one. and your future.Gud luck..
This is good advice!
Putus Nyambung
26-03-10, 08:56
Wow, I'm not sure about "always has good taste for their wedding" I have seen many like some parody of 1940's love story movie. With global economic crisis, the best place for the money is in the bank at the moment.
marrone_pelle
26-03-10, 10:17
I think we dont have to be too calculating for a marriage, because this is only happened once in our life time.
Maybe they come from wealthy and prominent family, of course their big family want a special celebration. But not all of them, sometimes some couples have a simple and practical thinking they dont want to be too busy and complicated towards their marriage, usually they plan their wedding without much interference many parties. Maybe their family very flexible and moderate,as long as the celebaration bring lots of joy for all sides.
Do not ever do something that you never want and you are very hard to accept, because you will looks dull and not shiny at your wedding photo.
Remember, that marriage is a once in a lifetime , make this meaningful moment for you and your beloved one.
gud luck!
Remember, that marriage is a once in a lifetime
Not necessarily.
Not necessarily.
LOL! I second that, Pimp. ;)
Not necessarily.
Well how about once in a lifetime per woman. People rarely marry the same person twice!
marrone_pelle
26-03-10, 15:39
Not necessarily.
hehehe...that depends of the personal each...thats your life, thats your choice.
Sliced-n-Diced
20-04-10, 23:12
You've all taken the time to respond to my request for advice, so I'm sorry I have taken so long to make another post here.
It has been very useful for me to see the range of responses here.
In terms of the in-laws' request for me to purchase property, they did point out to me that the property would have to be in my fiance's name, but their come back when I expressed hesitation at this was one of whether I trusted her or not. However, this issue has not been pursued by them, and so I believe that their request for me to purchase property may have been some kind of test or them seeing if they could get me to commit to a life in Indonesia. My fiance's parents would ideally like for us to settle in Indonesia, but neither I nor my finance wish to do so.
It was very interesting for me to hear from some chinese-indonesian members of this forum, and even more interesting to hear that they thought the proposed expenses were excessive. So, I guess a lot of you are gonna choke when I update you. Since my last post, wedding preparations have begun. The wedding will be at Mulia Hotel, and I'm looking at a £50-70k bill once we also throw in the decorators, wedding planner, and other required items. The wedding is now for 800+ people due to Mulia's minimum revenue pricing structure. I do however believe (hope) that the red packets will make up a decent proportion of my costs.
Our respective parents have met on webcam, and there do exist tensions on the wealth divide. They are all due to meet in the coming weeks though, so that will be interesting. The indo-laws are flying to the UK just to meet with my parents on their expense and time, so that is nice of them.
The advice for just saying 'yes' to the in-laws and then making life decisions later behind our protective wall, sounds great to me. I agree though that I need to man up and stand up more for what I believe in, but I also want to be understanding towards my fiance's culture. My finance's parents are not money grabbers, they are far more wealthy than I and I do believe them to be fundamentally good people. I believe that they want their daughter to have a wedding that they think represents their status, and that they want to stick to their custom. I do though believe that despite having their daughter's interests at heart, that they also approach this from a business perspective, and try to negotiate starting from unreasonable initial positions. I guess I will wise up to this.
Thanks for your time again!
You've all taken the time to respond to my request for advice, so I'm sorry I have taken so long to make another post here.
It has been very useful for me to see the range of responses here.
In terms of the in-laws' request for me to purchase property, they did point out to me that the property would have to be in my fiance's name, but their come back when I expressed hesitation at this was one of whether I trusted her or not. However, this issue has not been pursued by them, and so I believe that their request for me to purchase property may have been some kind of test or them seeing if they could get me to commit to a life in Indonesia. My fiance's parents would ideally like for us to settle in Indonesia, but neither I nor my finance wish to do so.
It was very interesting for me to hear from some chinese-indonesian members of this forum, and even more interesting to hear that they thought the proposed expenses were excessive. So, I guess a lot of you are gonna choke when I update you. Since my last post, wedding preparations have begun. The wedding will be at Mulia Hotel, and I'm looking at a £50-70k bill once we also throw in the decorators, wedding planner, and other required items. The wedding is now for 800+ people due to Mulia's minimum revenue pricing structure. I do however believe (hope) that the red packets will make up a decent proportion of my costs.
Our respective parents have met on webcam, and there do exist tensions on the wealth divide. They are all due to meet in the coming weeks though, so that will be interesting. The indo-laws are flying to the UK just to meet with my parents on their expense and time, so that is nice of them.
The advice for just saying 'yes' to the in-laws and then making life decisions later behind our protective wall, sounds great to me. I agree though that I need to man up and stand up more for what I believe in, but I also want to be understanding towards my fiance's culture. My finance's parents are not money grabbers, they are far more wealthy than I and I do believe them to be fundamentally good people. I believe that they want their daughter to have a wedding that they think represents their status, and that they want to stick to their custom. I do though believe that despite having their daughter's interests at heart, that they also approach this from a business perspective, and try to negotiate starting from unreasonable initial positions. I guess I will wise up to this.
Thanks for your time again!
Thank you for your reply. I thought you scared you enough not to come back :lol:
Are we invited to the wedding? *j/k*
I wished you the best wedding celebration ever.
The last thing you need is to be stressed out at the day when it counts the most.
Warm Regards,
Armand
waarmstrong
21-04-10, 00:16
Not surprising that the OP would post the cost of the wedding. That is the whole point of bank-rolling an extravagant affair is it not? So you can flaunt it.
90DegreesEast
21-04-10, 00:41
Not surprising that the OP would post the cost of the wedding. That is the whole point of bank-rolling an extravagant affair is it not? So you can flaunt it.
Good point. Personally, I'd definitely consider asking for my subscription back and joining another site.
wedding over 100k... reminds me of my friend's wedding in LA. When they split they still owed (a little less than) half of it to the bank.
My finance's parents are not money grabbers, they are far more wealthy than I and I do believe them to be fundamentally good people. I believe that they want their daughter to have a wedding that they think represents their status, and that they want to stick to their custom. I do though believe that despite having their daughter's interests at heart, that they also approach this from a business perspective, and try to negotiate starting from unreasonable initial positions. I guess I will wise up to this.
Thanks for your time again!
Keep in mind that just because your future in-laws are wealthy, it does not mean they do not pinch pennys. I have had dealing with people that are millionares but end otherwise amicable relations over a disputed $20 USD phone bill. People here in Jakarta play HARD and play to WIN. The example I can give is how Indonesians drive in Java. Did you ever notice how agressive they are and how they almost never yield?
Not surprising that the OP would post the cost of the wedding. That is the whole point of bank-rolling an extravagant affair is it not? So you can flaunt it.
Ahh, flaunt mode ...
Well, although I was not so uncouth as to ask the (ex) in-laws for a P 'n L Statement of my Japanese ceremony, I do believe that a conservative estimate of the final bill did see it "pee a little further" than that quoted above. And this was in undepreciated yen bills of some decades ago. The guest list was also a little more exclusive - at least two gold cards to qualify. Ha, ha, I remember when I was presented with the conjugal sake bowl and the only formal instruction in drinking I'd taken was Tea Ceremony. So there was I turning the thing three times (anti-clockwise) before taking a sip and big sis (in-law) gives me a kick from behind, "nonde, nonde" (trans: just drink it you big moron). This do was humbled by elder sis's double Swiss-Japo wedding; but then hubby's father was a director of UBS.
Anyway, that's all (ex) history now and only of use for a good flaunt when invited to do so (by persons of waarmstrong's green nut status).
waarmstrong
21-04-10, 19:09
There may be a bit of moss on my back, but the last time I checked, nothing green on the nuts.
I meant those 6 green things hanging off your member just under your nom de plume, left-hand-side. <but then I know you know wot I meant> ;>p
waarmstrong
21-04-10, 22:56
Technically yes I suppose I knew your intended meaning, Grats, but I hardly ever pass up so obvious a straight line.
That wedding is very expensive, I rather used that money to start a business investment. A wedding will just last for few hours and the expenses might cost your lifetime savings.
Depends on the OP, but I think if you are not ready for that expense, you should talk to your fiance. At the end of the day, it is her you are marrying and not the family.
Dear Friend.
As a Chinese Singaporean. Let me share my thoughts. Chinese is very particular about "Face" and reputation.
Usually the man have to pay a dowry, send gold ring, chain etc to her to show that you are committed to her and in appreciation to the parent for bringing up a fine lady whom to us Chinese means she is married out of the family and will take up your surname instead of her own.
There are lots of ritual to follows and you may see below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_wedding
Usually the parent asked the man to pay for all expenses as to show their friends and relative that their daughter is married to a well match, family status wise. The Chinese have a saying, for marriage, Bamboo door matched Bamboo door and those with dragon door will married their counter part. So poor with poor and rich to Rich. Otherwise they usually feel that the family will become a laughing stock in front of the their friend and relative if these is a miss match.
For the rich, the Ang Pao do not come in Rp100k sort or less. For me the min that I have to give when a rich friend wedding reception is at Least Rp500 (Buffet style) and Rp 1 juta to those closer to me or sit down 9 course dinner. We too have a reputation to protect. Rest assure if the wedding is held in Mulia, Nobody will give u anything less that Rp 500k, that is fr one PAX. I am sure you will have a good return on this investment. But be careful as sometimes the girl side will keep this money if the dowry is not discussed in advance.
Wish you all the best.
Cheers
waarmstrong
23-04-10, 12:02
I get your drift, Rainman, but you must admit that there is a lot of silliness excused and justified as tradition/culture. I hope you understand that an ingrained aspect of American culture is to poke fun at the absurdities and hypocrisies we find in ourselves and others. The concept of "face" gives rise to much opportunity for sarcasm.
Attennnn SHUN!
Abouuuut FACE!
Kiss my ... face.
waarmstrong
23-04-10, 12:35
I see you have moved up in the commentary world, Grats, from dangling balls to face.
Well WaarmStrong.
That is our culture which our forefather left behind.
For my first wedding 20 years ago. We were poor and agreed to go for then popular mass wedding and then Australia for Honeymoon which is in the whole package.
With a Salary of then USD 300/month, I fork out USD 10 k for the wedding. And another USD 10k for the house renovation etc.
Then later, her parent change their mind and insist that we must go thru the traditional wedding ceremony with Tea served, Gold and jewelry for the bride etc. Rental of the Merz 200 for 2 days now instead of one. And basically spend another USD 10k since we now have to do everything twice. Return from the Ang Poa then was just USD 6k.
That's life my friend......
Cheers
I see you have moved up in the commentary world, Grats, from dangling balls to face.
I didn't say "dangling balls".
I wouldn't say "dangling balls".
You must be confusing me with someone lewd.
Well WaarmStrong.
That is our culture which our forefather left behind.
For my first wedding 20 years ago. We were poor and agreed to go for then popular mass wedding and then Australia for Honeymoon which is in the whole package.
With a Salary of then USD 300/month, I fork out USD 10 k for the wedding. And another USD 10k for the house renovation etc.
Then later, her parent change their mind and insist that we must go thru the traditional wedding ceremony with Tea served, Gold and jewelry for the bride etc. Rental of the Merz 200 for 2 days now instead of one. And basically spend another USD 10k since we now have to do everything twice. Return from the Ang Poa then was just USD 6k.
That's life my friend......
Cheers
I have to agreed with you, Rainman,
This is not just happen for Chinese-Indonesian, I have to admitted our family held the same believed....BOBOT,BIBIT,BEBET - the commons term for Wealth,Family & Educations. Some people may not want to believe that, but I do:)
There's NO WAY my family will let me marries someone whose not in the same status, yes, love is still the foundation for a happy life but in reality, one needs more than love to survive. Not to mention, when both party comes from the same level of status, less friction when it come to an arguments....because NO ONE will point to each other what the other doesn't have, 'I don't owe my husband nothing-vice versa'.
As for the OP question, I can totally understand his In-Laws concern about their daughter well being because I will do the same thing for our only son.
M
waarmstrong
23-04-10, 13:24
Yes, Grats, my apologies: "Green things hanging off your member" should not to be construed as or confused with "dangling balls."
Yes, to Rainman, as well. Keeping mom and dad happy can lead to some unusual behaviors, things we might not otherwise consider. It does, as I noted, provide a wealth of straight-line material for fun-loving commentary.
IndoMom has become, I suspect, more egaletarian as the the years have advanced. I wonder if IndoMom Jr. has the same mating views?
Indomon.
The most grand wedding I attended was that of the Indian. It was held in Jakarta Conference Hall with an estimated 5-7000 guest and some are flown in from Europe and the state. They have a very big screen over head showing the name of the guest and where they came from. There was a boat (Stage) in the middle of the Hall where Indian Artist were brought in from India to perform. Free flow of Wine and whiskey from start till end. They usually end around 4 -5 am but not on this occasion as it was held during Ramadah. Understand from the Host they spent USD 400k on this wedding.
Another was held in the function hall of the Bandung Army HQ. He was Chinese Indonesian and my school mate. He paid for all the ticket to fly about 20 of us in from Singapore to Bandung for this wedding. With Free accommodation at the Sheraton in Bandung too, he book the whole Sheraton and another hotel for guest from other part of Indonesia.. Total guest invited was about 5000 and I pity his parent. They must have been standing on the stage for at least 4 hours just shaking hand with all the guest. And then also some 18-20 years back. There were bad traffic jam all over the city of Bandung because of this wedding. And the army were send to control the traffic.
So that is Indonesia. Chinese wedding is still simple compared to Indian....
Cheers
Rainman,
The wedding you've mention above - is that the party of the prominent Indian movie producers ??
M
Rainman,
The wedding you've mention above - is that the party of the prominent Indian movie producers ??
M
No. That was some 10 years ago maybe. His family is the owner of the biggest carpet manufacturer here. Oh, They used to own a Bank too. So how much is USD 400 k in today currency?
Regards
IndoMom has become, I suspect, more egaletarian as the the years have advanced. I wonder if IndoMom Jr. has the same mating views?
Absolutely! Equality is my 'matra' but that doesn't mean I cannot related to the one lesser:), as for the Jr. - he is still in training.
M
No. That was some 10 years ago maybe. His family is the owner of the biggest carpet manufacturer here. Oh, They used to own a Bank too. So how much is USD 400 k in today currency?
Regards
My father owned a couple bank in Indo - PM me their family name if you still remember, best bet they play golf together:)
US$ 400K in todays Rp.currencies just around 6 Mill Rp. just enough for a small house in Menteng area.
M
Wow! What a wedding, I havent been to such expensive weddings....We only have 50 guest in our wedding. All close families and friends. Very simple but solemn.
My family insisted to have a bigger party because me and my husband are the eldest in the family but we both insisted to say no, we dont want guest that we dont even know because our wedding is a very special occasion which we want to share to people who mean so much for us and who truly cares for us... Well with the status, my husband's dad work for UK Parliament and my ancestors and grandparents is in the Philippine is in politics.
At the end, both parties agreed to let us have our wedding the way we want it. But of course I am pretty sure that my mum is very disappointed.
I am told Mr Bakerie held a wedding for a member of his family at Hotel Mulia, 3 day bash, one billion rupiah, he didnt invite anyone from Lapindo
waarmstrong
23-04-10, 16:59
"Well, I I I I I I I I have been invited to many a wedding at the Hotel Mulia. Did you hear me? I said theeeee Hotel Mulia!" You will probably never hear me say that. Even if I had been so blessed, name-dropping only encourages, in a small way, such outlandish behavior. Are the rich different? They certainly think so.
I have to agreed with you, Rainman,
This is not just happen for Chinese-Indonesian, I have to admitted our family held the same believed....BOBOT,BIBIT,BEBET - the commons term for Wealth,Family & Educations. Some people may not want to believe that, but I do:)
There's NO WAY my family will let me marries someone whose not in the same status, yes, love is still the foundation for a happy life but in reality, one needs more than love to survive. Not to mention, when both party comes from the same level of status, less friction when it come to an arguments....because NO ONE will point to each other what the other doesn't have, 'I don't owe my husband nothing-vice versa'.
As for the OP question, I can totally understand his In-Laws concern about their daughter well being because I will do the same thing for our only son.
M
I somewhat agree with 'same status' thingy. I cannot stand golddiggers or opportunists who aim for free rides throughout their lives. I knew a couple of people who married richer and elderly man/women for economical reason, definitely not love even if that's what they're trying to imply.
Big weddings are fine if you have the money, I mean who doesn't love a great party? I'd love to crash each and every wedding like that lol! However, if they need to show an extravagant wedding by taking a loan or selling their property and hurt them financially, they don't even have the 'status' at the first place. They just pretend to have it, like people who buy fake designer brands. Just a show off.
One aspect of Indonesian life that I most certainly don't miss is the constant need to prove (even flaunt) myself if I want to be taken seriously. Wedding ceremony is part of it. This aspect of my personality has nothing to do with USA, I have always disliked flagrant display of wealth and status for as long as I can remember. Here I enjoy being able to strike a conversation with a total stranger, any total stranger, without him/her staring back at me with "who are you to talk to me" look. I remember I had to wear certain level/brand of clothing, shoes, and watch if I don't want the people behind the counter at those lavish malls to look at me condescendingly.
I somewhat agree with 'same status' thingy. I cannot stand golddiggers or opportunists who aim for free rides throughout their lives. I knew a couple of people who married richer and elderly man/women for economical reason, definitely not love even if that's what they're trying to imply.
Big weddings are fine if you have the money, I mean who doesn't love a great party? I'd love to crash each and every wedding like that lol! However, if they need to show an extravagant wedding by taking a loan or selling their property and hurt them financially, they don't even have the 'status' at the first place. They just pretend to have it, like people who buy fake designer brands. Just a show off.
Yep,that's exactly what it's means. When you 'have' - you don't need to prove to anyone anything...it's just come as naturally, and people can 'see' it too. There's a lot more pretender out there, and for them - I would say 'good luck' as they the one that most likely to take anything and everything to the extreme:) . And my father always said 'You can always smells an Old money by looking at it', and he is right:thumb:.
M
I am told Mr Bakerie held a wedding for a member of his family at Hotel Mulia, 3 day bash, one billion rupiah, he didnt invite anyone from Lapindo
I can't think of anything more boring than attending a wedding for 3 days! What a total and utter waste of time and money. Did they have a vomitorium you think? http://marinapotok.com/collaborations/images/vomitorium/vomitorium.jpg
I remember I had to wear certain level/brand of clothing, shoes, and watch if I don't want the people behind the counter at those lavish malls to look at me condescendingly.
Lucky I am an Aussie, 'cause I wear what I want and don't care if the people behind the counter think I am a slob...
One aspect of Indonesian life that I most certainly don't miss is the constant need to prove (even flaunt) myself if I want to be taken seriously. Wedding ceremony is part of it. This aspect of my personality has nothing to do with USA, I have always disliked flagrant display of wealth and status for as long as I can remember. Here I enjoy being able to strike a conversation with a total stranger, any total stranger, without him/her staring back at me with "who are you to talk to me" look. I remember I had to wear certain level/brand of clothing, shoes, and watch if I don't want the people behind the counter at those lavish malls to look at me condescendingly.
it's not completely true. If someone dresses up like hobo here, they will not be treated with respect either. They're not really brand whore like people in Asia but in businesses they do still judge from how you look. I mean you can try Tiffany's Co. or Bentley dealership over here, same thing, if you don't look like you're going to spend any money... well, they'd be still friendly but don't really waste their time with you. Or you can try to go to upscale night clubs, see if the bouncer will let you in if you're not flashy enough.
Of course not everywhere in the US but you were talking about lavish/upscale places.
Lucky I am an Aussie, 'cause I wear what I want and don't care if the people behind the counter think I am a slob...
Just pointing the obvious that being a 'bule' is a status of its own.
Just pointing the obvious that being a 'bule' is a status of its own.
I agree with you there. As minority in western world if I don't dress up somewhat convincing, people will think I'm my son's nanny.
Just pointing the obvious that being a 'bule' is a status of its own.
So it would seem. In almost two years living in Jakarta, I have never been denied entry to the most fancy malls here, despite some of my Indonesian friends telling me that they have been rejected when better presented than me. Must be that glowing white skin I have...or maybe they can smell the money? Too bad they don't know that my wallet is moth filled and not money filled. :-)
it's not completely true. If someone dresses up like hobo here, they will not be treated with respect either. They're not really brand whore like people in Asia but in businesses they do still judge from how you look. I mean you can try Tiffany's Co. or Bentley dealership over here, same thing, if you don't look like you're going to spend any money... well, they'd be still friendly but don't really waste their time with you. Or you can try to go to upscale night clubs, see if the bouncer will let you in if you're not flashy enough.
Of course not everywhere in the US but you were talking about lavish/upscale places.
I'm not talking about dressing like a bum. I like the understated non-branded down-to-earth simple (but neat and clean) look, and unless I wear an expensive watch to "balance" it, sometimes those mbak mbak wouldn't even bother to be polite. Probably because I don't look nor smell like old money.
So it would seem. In almost two years living in Jakarta, I have never been denied entry to the most fancy malls here, despite some of my Indonesian friends telling me that they have been rejected when better presented than me. Must be that glowing white skin I have...or maybe they can smell the money? Too bad they don't know that my wallet is moth filled and not money filled. :-)
We call it "Inlander mentality". It is indeed bizarre that I'm treated as second class race in my own country, by my own people.
We call it "Inlander mentality". It is indeed bizarre that I'm treated as second class race in my own country, by my own people.
WOW, I feel bad for you if that what you think about your own people.
Being 'Bule' ( borrowing from your own words) or 'Inlander' is NOT a status, when you treat people with respect and dignity regardless who or what you are expect the same in return. Respect is simply something that you have to earn and I am sure you all know that.
It just come to my own observation, that some of the Indonesian people that used to or just come back from their overseas living act like they are better than their Indonesian counterpart..and do you expect them to respect you while you looking 'down' at them?! OR
Watching a 'Bule' run a run with a short pant and tank top and sandal (rather than in the beach) in a prominent establishment asking for a top notch service....bloody annoying!
So it's not just money,folks! and if you think the other way around...maybe you need to go out and socialize more often or better yet, enroll your self into one of The John Roberts Powell etiquette class:).
WOW, I feel bad for you if that what you think about your own people.
Being 'Bule' ( borrowing from your own words) or 'Inlander' is NOT a status, when you treat people with respect and dignity regardless who or what you are expect the same in return. Respect is simply something that you have to earn and I am sure you all know that.
It just come to my own observation, that some of the Indonesian people that used to or just come back from their overseas living act like they are better than their Indonesian counterpart..and do you expect them to respect you while you looking 'down' at them?! OR
Watching a 'Bule' run a run with a short pant and tank top and sandal (rather than in the beach) in a prominent establishment asking for a top notch service....bloody annoying!
So it's not just money,folks! and if you think the other way around...maybe you need to go out and socialize more often or better yet, enroll your self into one of The John Roberts Powell etiquette class:).
But its about money for you when it comes to marriage material for those who have money.
================================================== ================================================== ======================
Unrelated to quote above but doesn't have to be necessarily
So someone who comes from a poor background is a gold digger if they marry someone who has money? Ahhh how about the remote possibility this couple just kind of love each other to bits and get on, on mutli-levels? Oh ya only in Hollywood.
What a couple who would bother marrying and stress would come up from who had the money to begin with and who isn't pulling their weight. What a basis to start out with. Don't these people bother to get to know each other well enough to be in the same ballpark emotionaly, psychologicaly and lovingly to be beyond this? If having the right amount of money is a criteria for coupling blahhhhh on bothering. How shallow.
But its about money for you when it comes to marriage material for those who have money.
================================================== ================================================== ======================
Unrelated to quote above but doesn't have to be necessarily
So someone who comes from a poor background is a gold digger if they marry someone who has money? Ahhh how about the remote possibility this couple just kind of love each other to bits and get on, on mutli-levels? Oh ya only in Hollywood.
What a couple who would bother marrying and stress would come up from who had the money to begin with and who isn't pulling their weight. What a basis to start out with. Don't these people bother to get to know each other well enough to be in the same ballpark emotionaly, psychologicaly and lovingly to be beyond this? If having the right amount of money is a criteria for coupling blahhhhh on bothering. How shallow.
Read my post ,Pim,
I have never say that someone poor marry to one that have is a gold digger - I did said 'equality' is important , at least in our family. So you can have another opinion and believe in these matter, I wouldn't mind it at all..really, it's your life:)
M
I'm the one who said gold digger, I was referring to famous people like Trumps' new spouses and also Anna Nicole Smith. I wanted to believe they're in love but ... no, it's too hard!
WOW, I feel bad for you if that what you think about your own people.
Being 'Bule' ( borrowing from your own words) or 'Inlander' is NOT a status, when you treat people with respect and dignity regardless who or what you are expect the same in return. Respect is simply something that you have to earn and I am sure you all know that.
It just come to my own observation, that some of the Indonesian people that used to or just come back from their overseas living act like they are better than their Indonesian counterpart..and do you expect them to respect you while you looking 'down' at them?! OR
Watching a 'Bule' run a run with a short pant and tank top and sandal (rather than in the beach) in a prominent establishment asking for a top notch service....bloody annoying!
So it's not just money,folks! and if you think the other way around...maybe you need to go out and socialize more often or better yet, enroll your self into one of The John Roberts Powell etiquette class:).
I do treat everybody as equal, therefore I expect to be treated as such.
In theory we are all equal under the law etc., in reality that is not what always happen. I can choose to pretend that many Indonesians don't give white people preferential treatment, or I can say it as I see it. I don't mean to say that all Indonesians have Inlander mentality, I merely say many, many of us do.
For the longest time I lived under the pretense of "mikul dhuwur mendem jero", and I have to say I don't entirely agree with it anymore. There are times for tact, and there are times for honesty. If you keep pointing to the good and hiding the bad while doing nothing to solve the problem, it's no different than the so-called ostrich strategy of burying his head hoping the problem goes away. The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging the problem exists. Here I am acknowledging it.
And no, IndoMom, you won't be able to tell that I'm a foreign graduate if I'm in Jakarta. I wouldn't dress nor act as such, and the only tell tale is when I'm forced to speak English.
WOW, I feel bad for you if that what you think about your own people.
Being 'Bule' ( borrowing from your own words) or 'Inlander' is NOT a status, when you treat people with respect and dignity regardless who or what you are expect the same in return. Respect is simply something that you have to earn and I am sure you all know that.
It just come to my own observation, that some of the Indonesian people that used to or just come back from their overseas living act like they are better than their Indonesian counterpart..and do you expect them to respect you while you looking 'down' at them?! OR
Watching a 'Bule' run a run with a short pant and tank top and sandal (rather than in the beach) in a prominent establishment asking for a top notch service....bloody annoying!
So it's not just money,folks! and if you think the other way around...maybe you need to go out and socialize more often or better yet, enroll your self into one of The John Roberts Powell etiquette class:).
I normally enjoy your posts Indomom, but am a bit disappointed by this one.
1. You must have been living outside Indo for too long. I have only been here 2 years and can see how the "poorer" classes are treated by the richer people. Even treated that way by the cashier at the rich store. I agree with Injun, too many are treated like 2nd class citizens. I am just a temp visitor here and get better repect than most of my Indo friends. Why? Because I am white? I think that is crazy.
2. What is wrong with short pants? Why should I dress up just to impress some "prominent establishment"? Why are they considered prominent? Because they charge more money than everyone else for their crappy food? Seems to me that it is all about appearances and showing off how much money you have. You say it is not about money, but then you tell people to go to an etiquette class, which only the rich snobs do to impress each other.
Read my post ,Pim,
I have never say that someone poor marry to one that have is a gold digger - I did said 'equality' is important , at least in our family. So you can have another opinion and believe in these matter, I wouldn't mind it at all..really, it's your life:)
M
Never said you said it. Please note what I wrote to divide my comment to what I quoted you and what I wrote not related your post.
"Unrelated to quote above but doesn't have to be necessarily"
The "doesn't have to be necessarily" was for whoever read into something else you said if there was anything else they saw. I didn't.
Although I appreciate your permission to have my own opinion, its quite uneccessary thanks. Thats a given unless there are some people you don't allow that to. Possibly your son who will be groomed to marry within his own economic background perhaps?
2. What is wrong with short pants? Why should I dress up just to impress some "prominent establishment"? Why are they considered prominent? Because they charge more money than everyone else for their crappy food? Seems to me that it is all about appearances and showing off how much money you have. You say it is not about money, but then you tell people to go to an etiquette class, which only the rich snobs do to impress each other.
' you are what you are wearing' - nothing personal, but in real life that's what people will perceive. And what I means by prominents is not necessary fancy place or expensive ones. Bottom line is no matter where you live, dressing in appropriate manner is expected, in Indonesia or not .
Etiquette class is just 'an icing on the cake' ,and I don't believe it's design only for the riches folks - even a businesses nowdays will send their employee to one should they think it will bring an added benefits to the company.
. ..Possibly your son who will be groomed to marry within his own economic background perhaps?
Well, that's part of my mommy duties to teach him whats right & wrong, whats acceptable & not, but in the end this mothergoose will have to leave it to beaver it self - my prayer is that he will make a good judgement.
90DegreesEast
24-04-10, 14:39
I normally enjoy your posts Indomom, but am a bit disappointed by this one.
1. You must have been living outside Indo for too long. I have only been here 2 years and can see how the "poorer" classes are treated by the richer people. Even treated that way by the cashier at the rich store. I agree with Injun, too many are treated like 2nd class citizens. I am just a temp visitor here and get better repect than most of my Indo friends. Why? Because I am white? I think that is crazy.
2. What is wrong with short pants? Why should I dress up just to impress some "prominent establishment"? Why are they considered prominent? Because they charge more money than everyone else for their crappy food? Seems to me that it is all about appearances and showing off how much money you have. You say it is not about money, but then you tell people to go to an etiquette class, which only the rich snobs do to impress each other.
Agreed Jester. There also seems to be alot of snobbery going on in this thread from inherited wealth!
Where I am from (England), there's not such a gargantuan gap between the rich and poor. This gives for a more balanced and happy society (in general).
I've come to Indonesia to help teach a new generation English. I've given up a career and good money in the UK (don't get me wrong, it's my choice and a great one). If I want to wear sandles and a T-Shirt in your nicest malls or best restaurants, I'll do it and when you're buying your new pair of Jimmy Choos or Gucci handbag, remember how many of your fellow Indonesian mouths you could feed instead. Sit me round a table with your highest society and i'm sure to shine. You can't inherit "class "; you've even got it or your haven't. I'm a firm believer that you can polish a turd but diamonds are derived from coal!
But its about money for you when it comes to marriage material for those who have money.
================================================== ================================================== ======================
Unrelated to quote above but doesn't have to be necessarily
So someone who comes from a poor background is a gold digger if they marry someone who has money? Ahhh how about the remote possibility this couple just kind of love each other to bits and get on, on mutli-levels? Oh ya only in Hollywood.
What a couple who would bother marrying and stress would come up from who had the money to begin with and who isn't pulling their weight. What a basis to start out with. Don't these people bother to get to know each other well enough to be in the same ballpark emotionaly, psychologicaly and lovingly to be beyond this? If having the right amount of money is a criteria for coupling blahhhhh on bothering. How shallow.
yah I dont get it as well... I know someone who is just a farmer's daughter and married the son of one of the most wealthiest family in the Philippines. The family accepted her without any remorse. My country is also a third world and culture also influences so many aspect of it but when it comes to marriage, we are more accepting to what our children's decision. But of course there are still few who minds.
Agreed Jester. There also seems to be alot of snobbery going on in this thread from inherited wealth!
Where I am from (England), there's not such a gargantuan gap between the rich and poor. This gives for a more balanced and happy society (in general).
I've come to Indonesia to help teach a new generation English. I've given up a career and good money in the UK (don't get me wrong, it's my choice and a great one). If I want to wear sandles and a T-Shirt in your nicest malls or best restaurants, I'll do it and when you're buying your new pair of Jimmy Choos or Gucci handbag, remember how many of your fellow Indonesian mouths you could feed instead. Sit me round a table with your highest society and i'm sure to shine. You can't inherit "class "; you've even got it or your haven't. I'm a firm believer that you can polish a turd but diamonds are derived from coal!
So, you are the noble one:thumb:
This is a general forum,folks . Nothing personal - one free to give her/his opinions....:focus:
90DegreesEast
24-04-10, 16:14
So, you are the noble one:thumb:
So it seems. No need to thank me lol
So it seems. No need to thank me lol
Naahhh....I owe you nothing:)
90DegreesEast
24-04-10, 16:37
Naahhh....I owe you nothing:)
Of course you don't. I was being sarcastic as I am sure you were. Be careful as you are running the risk of undoing what little reputation you have on here (and I don't mean rep power). Mocking me for wanting to help make a difference? I applaud you and rest my case!
I am told Mr Bakerie held a wedding for a member of his family at Hotel Mulia, 3 day bash, one billion rupiah, he didnt invite anyone from Lapindo
I know of a ship owner, Tanto from Surabaya. The grand Door gift for the lucky guest is a Kijan Innova besides others. The Son in Law I was told got a house.
I can't think of anything more boring than attending a wedding for 3 days! What a total and utter waste of time and money. Did they have a vomitorium you think? http://marinapotok.com/collaborations/images/vomitorium/vomitorium.jpg
Once was invited to Suharto Grand Daughter wedding. The groom is my Friend's Brother and when I went to Taman Mini. Was shock the place was quite empty and was later told today is the 3rd days which is for not important people....hehehe... Did not see the bride or groom nor their parent too.... Just went ate and go home.
Oh.... As per my boss advice, when u attend wedding of the rich. Do not give them any ang pao or gift at the reception. Well... Usually we send the key of the car or others driect to their house... So just sign and walk in... hehe
Of course you don't. I was being sarcastic as I am sure you were. Be careful as you are running the risk of undoing what little reputation you have on here (and I don't mean rep power). Mocking me for wanting to help make a difference? I applaud you and rest my case!
Are you threating me?! great. This tread is not about me but I will rest my case anyway.
Move on and have a great life!
Ah, I almost forgot that weddings is one of those occasions for people to show "appreciation" toward the parents of the bride and groom. This is where the parents collect on all favors owed; when the parents are "somebody" then there are many huge and expensive favors to collect indeed. As such the wedding does not belong entirely to the bride and groom.
WOW, I feel bad for you if that what you think about your own people.
Being 'Bule' ( borrowing from your own words) or 'Inlander' is NOT a status, when you treat people with respect and dignity regardless who or what you are expect the same in return. Respect is simply something that you have to earn and I am sure you all know that.
Sorry IndoMom, but I'm going to have to disagree with this observation. There is a big difference in "status" between bule and the average Indonesian joe -- otherwise, how would you explain that I can walk into nearly any nightclub in Jakarta dressed in my old ratty jeans and my old comfortable t-shirt with the myriad of little burn holes from my cigarettes in it, whereas my Indonesian friends who are pretty much dressed much much better than me get rejected?
Explain also why they are let in after I tell the door guys they're with me, and if they don't get in, I'm not going in either?
One word: status.
It just come to my own observation, that some of the Indonesian people that used to or just come back from their overseas living act like they are better than their Indonesian counterpart..and do you expect them to respect you while you looking 'down' at them?! OR
Watching a 'Bule' run a run with a short pant and tank top and sandal (rather than in the beach) in a prominent establishment asking for a top notch service....bloody annoying!
Not necessarily - this also comes back to a difference in culture because what you consider top notch service, is what I consider normal. If I walk into a store to spend money, it's not I who should be grateful that I am welcomed, it's the store that should be grateful I went there to spend the money. If it means dealing with a bule who hasn't shaved in 2 months and prefers to wear old jeans and old t-shirts, that's tough shit, but it falls under the "customer is king" rule.
Again, status. You are now falling into the trap that you assign a lower "status" to people who dress in old stuff.
So it's not just money,folks! and if you think the other way around...maybe you need to go out and socialize more often or better yet, enroll your self into one of The John Roberts Powell etiquette class:).
And unfortunately, it is about the money. In my 3 years here, the one constant I have ran into is that the majority of people who have taken said etiquette class, and who have this conception that there is no status difference, are the ones who will react shocked if this bule pulls out his 6 year old monochrome Nokia phone to make a call.
It gets even funnier when I explain that I don't need a BB or iPhone, that I don't own a vehicle, that I live in a kost, and that my average monthly salary is laughable by European standards, but middle class for Indonesian standards. Instant "we don't want to know you any more" moment.
Strangely enough, I get along fine with the university students, I get along fine with the old guy next door who spends most of the day sifting through garbage, because he knows that even if I am better off than he is, I'm still human, and I don't go flaunting whatever wealth I have. Or maybe it's just because I treat him like he's a human being, and actually occasionally get him dinner or just sit down for a smoke and a chat.
And I really am curious, IndoMom, when's the last time you spoke to a beggar on the street? Or the kornek on a metro mini? Or the driver of an angkot? Do you even acknowledge their existence, or do they need to follow an etiquette class first?
Dear Madcat,
Have you been to "Fine Dinning" places here in Jakarta? Tell me if they allow you in if yo are not properly Dress?
Or as a matter of fact, try blowfish, X2, Dragonfly which are the top club here if they allow you in if again you are not properly dress?
It really others matter whether you are "White or Black" here and money meant nothing here.
Have u try walking into a club in Paris? My Thai Friend and myself were rejected entrance and so were some French man properly dressed, while some African in Jeans were allowed in, A check later with some friends said it all depend on whether the bouncer at the door like you or not... and if they feel u cannot afford it, they refuse you entry... So that's life.
Cheers
it is pretty much universal how you dress matters. In Germany the bouncers won't allow you entry to clubs if you're wearing sneakers. Even professional Ukrainian soccer players (with little time and lots of money) denied entry to Harrod in London, because they were still wearing training outfits. Oprah Winfrey was not welcomed in Hermes boutique in Paris, as she didn't feel like dressing up/putting make up on her time off.
But, I also agree, in Indonesia it feels worst because it's so obvious. I can relate to Injun's statement when you're treated as 2nd class citizen in your own country. One time I took my blond blue eyed German ex boyfriend for a visit to Indonesia and except for his flight *I* paid for all the expenses for hotels and meals because the vacation was a gift for his graduation, and the locals worshipped him and looked down on me... ärgerlich!
A
Where I am from (England), there's not such a gargantuan gap between the rich and poor. This gives for a more balanced and happy society (in general).
I think there is a a lot different with UK rich and Indo rich. I once met one of the heirs of MARKS and Spencer ( I dont know if he is rich enough for Indo criteria) as he is my aunt's boss. He attended my aunt's wedding sporting a lousy shirt and trouser..No gucci, no designer blah... People asked him what is his job he just replied, I am currentlly unemployed. He did not even stay in a big five star hotel, he was very happy to stay in our humble home...
Once was invited to Suharto Grand Daughter wedding.
Once me and my friend stayed in one of Suharto's villa in Solo and we are totally shocked! The maids, every time they talked to us they have to kneel on their knees few yards from us and almost crawling as they come closer but not more than a yard, with their head down asking " what do we want for breakfast".. We keep telling them not to kneel coz it makes us very uncomfortable. I think it is ridiculous how the rich treat other people...
Dear Madcat,
Have you been to "Fine Dinning" places here in Jakarta? Tell me if they allow you in if yo are not properly Dress?
Yes, in my old black jeans with the faded splotches where I once dropped some bleach on them (I wear them because they are comfortable), and a t-shirt from a hacker conference. No problem.
Or as a matter of fact, try blowfish, X2, Dragonfly which are the top club here if they allow you in if again you are not properly dress?
Same, Dragonfly and X2 at least. Never been to Blowfish.
It really others matter whether you are "White or Black" here and money meant nothing here.
I don't know rainman, the only thing I see (and maybe that's just me), is that I get treated better than 90% of locals in most situations. Denying that being white has no bearing on ones 'status' is a fallacy, because there is in fact a whole lot of that going on. Now, on the flip side, a lot of people will see that I'm white and will be "yeah, okay, so?" - they don't treat me any different, and that is great -- but to outright deny that there is a difference in perceived "status" is wrong, because there is.
Have u try walking into a club in Paris? My Thai Friend and myself were rejected entrance and so were some French man properly dressed, while some African in Jeans were allowed in, A check later with some friends said it all depend on whether the bouncer at the door like you or not... and if they feel u cannot afford it, they refuse you entry... So that's life.
Correct - yet at the same time, the reasoning there is one strictly about money - you either look like you can afford it or you can't; here, especially at Dragonfly, being white means getting in - regardless of how much money you have (or don't have), whereas being indonesian means you better bring the big bucks before they'll consider letting you in. (The exception being females, they get in anyway :P)
Dunno, from my point of view, I still say there's a big perceived status difference between locals and bule, and the sooner that disappears the better. Because a lot of people (and believe me, living in Bali for 4 months got me fed up with it), will automatically jack up the prices on anything purely based on the assumption that because I'm a bule, a) I must have a lot of money, and b) I probably don't know the "proper" prices for the service or product I'm getting.
90DegreesEast
25-04-10, 13:56
Sorry IndoMom, but I'm going to have to disagree with this observation. There is a big difference in "status" between bule and the average Indonesian joe -- otherwise, how would you explain that I can walk into nearly any nightclub in Jakarta dressed in my old ratty jeans and my old comfortable t-shirt with the myriad of little burn holes from my cigarettes in it, whereas my Indonesian friends who are pretty much dressed much much better than me get rejected?
Explain also why they are let in after I tell the door guys they're with me, and if they don't get in, I'm not going in either?
One word: status.
Not necessarily - this also comes back to a difference in culture because what you consider top notch service, is what I consider normal. If I walk into a store to spend money, it's not I who should be grateful that I am welcomed, it's the store that should be grateful I went there to spend the money. If it means dealing with a bule who hasn't shaved in 2 months and prefers to wear old jeans and old t-shirts, that's tough shit, but it falls under the "customer is king" rule.
Again, status. You are now falling into the trap that you assign a lower "status" to people who dress in old stuff.
And unfortunately, it is about the money. In my 3 years here, the one constant I have ran into is that the majority of people who have taken said etiquette class, and who have this conception that there is no status difference, are the ones who will react shocked if this bule pulls out his 6 year old monochrome Nokia phone to make a call.
It gets even funnier when I explain that I don't need a BB or iPhone, that I don't own a vehicle, that I live in a kost, and that my average monthly salary is laughable by European standards, but middle class for Indonesian standards. Instant "we don't want to know you any more" moment.
Strangely enough, I get along fine with the university students, I get along fine with the old guy next door who spends most of the day sifting through garbage, because he knows that even if I am better off than he is, I'm still human, and I don't go flaunting whatever wealth I have. Or maybe it's just because I treat him like he's a human being, and actually occasionally get him dinner or just sit down for a smoke and a chat.
And I really am curious, IndoMom, when's the last time you spoke to a beggar on the street? Or the kornek on a metro mini? Or the driver of an angkot? Do you even acknowledge their existence, or do they need to follow an etiquette class first?
I couldn't have put it better myself. Having frequented a number of "high class" clubs, restaurants and malls etc... the reception, courtesy and basic manners I experience from "the poor" puts "the rich" to shame. FORTUNATELY, the real Indonesia is what makes this country special.
90DegreesEast
25-04-10, 14:00
I think there is a a lot different with UK rich and Indo rich. I once met one of the heirs of MARKS and Spencer ( I dont know if he is rich enough for Indo criteria) as he is my aunt's boss. He attended my aunt's wedding sporting a lousy shirt and trouser..No gucci, no designer blah... People asked him what is his job he just replied, I am currentlly unemployed. He did not even stay in a big five star hotel, he was very happy to stay in our humble home...
Humble indeed ... and yes, easily rich enough by Monaco standards lol. Q. why did you think he was not rich enough by Indo standards or are you introducing a hint of sarcasm to? :-)
Once me and my friend stayed in one of Suharto's villa in Solo and we are totally shocked! The maids, every time they talked to us they have to kneel on their knees few yards from us and almost crawling as they come closer but not more than a yard, with their head down asking " what do we want for breakfast".. We keep telling them not to kneel coz it makes us very uncomfortable. I think it is ridiculous how the rich treat other people...
I'm not going to blame this straight to Soeharto or his wife Tien, because to many people in Solo Tien was considered part of the old Javanese nobility. The fact that they were the most powerful couple in the country led many people in Solo to believe that they were divinely appointed. They obviously picked the most loyal and serving kind of maids, who believed in their "wahyu" and treated them (and their guests) nothing short of royalty. What you described is the way a servant (in the purest sense of the word) approaches his/her lord in Javanese tradition.
Just a little trivia, they were both buried in a private hill that's part of the royal Mangkunegaran complex.
waarmstrong
25-04-10, 22:00
Excusing Ibu 10%'s foibles as stemming from ancient Javanese traditions is an argument I haven't heard lately.
Excusing Ibu 10%'s foibles as stemming from ancient Javanese traditions is an argument I haven't heard lately.
I'm simply explaining the behavior of the maids, nothing else.
Once me and my friend stayed in one of Suharto's villa in Solo and we are totally shocked! The maids, every time they talked to us they have to kneel on their knees few yards from us and almost crawling as they come closer but not more than a yard, with their head down asking " what do we want for breakfast".. We keep telling them not to kneel coz it makes us very uncomfortable. I think it is ridiculous how the rich treat other people...
This is really Indonesia and class matters.... Have u ever wonder why there is always a Side gate in most if not all houses....??????? It took me a long while to find out.....
Also.... I did not understand when my very close customer were not too happy when we had Dinner and my Driver joined sitting in the same table. He was very uncomfortable but I could not ask my driver to go to another table too????
Life as it it.... Welcome to Jakarta......
I believe you must be in a relationship with a member of a very rich chinese family, and it's the style of rich families to give a lot of "requirements", which in fact I am sure that the lady (Sliced-n-Diced's fiancee) will not be comfortable too. [I beleive they are a bit afraid too that you might only want to use her fnanicially, since in the general chinese culture, the daughter has the same right with the son to get inheritance!].
I believe the suggestion to discuss with the fiancee is the best suggestion. Talk about your financial condition honestly and about your future with her and about the LOVE. I am sure both of you will come with a better solution!!! I wish you luck!
waarmstrong
26-04-10, 10:21
The simple explanation begins...
I'm not going to blame this straight to Soeharto or his wife Tien ...
waarmstrong
26-04-10, 10:26
As John points out, its all about the money, class distinction is smoke screen to obscure the real concerns.
Humble indeed ... and yes, easily rich enough by Monaco standards lol. Q. why did you think he was not rich enough by Indo standards or are you introducing a hint of sarcasm to? :-)
lol!:tongue:
The simple explanation begins...
I was replying to kverz' story about Suharto's maids. What I'm trying to say is I can't entirely blame the maids' extremely subservient behavior to Suharto and Tien, because the maids probably believed themselves to be servants to nobility.
I couldn't have put it better myself. Having frequented a number of "high class" clubs, restaurants and malls etc... the reception, courtesy and basic manners I experience from "the poor" puts "the rich" to shame. FORTUNATELY, the real Indonesia is what makes this country special.
The cynic in me would suggest that perhaps when you are poor and powerless it's a good strategy to play safe and kiss everyones ass. Why is it that the 'real people' are always poor. Is it the same in the UK?
waarmstrong
26-04-10, 17:50
I was replying to kverz' story about Suharto's maids. What I'm trying to say is I can't entirely blame the maids' extremely subservient behavior to Suharto and Tien, because the maids probably believed themselves to be servants to nobility.
I suppose, but don't you think that Ibu Tien selected them because of their " step'n fetch'n" attitudes -- as a perfect reflection of how she viewed herself?
I suppose, but don't you think that Ibu Tien selected them because of their " step'n fetch'n" attitudes -- as a perfect reflection of how she viewed herself?
That's why I said "can't entirely". If there was no pool of royalists, she would have nothing to select from.
waarmstrong
26-04-10, 21:03
And more likely she instructed them to behave as if they were slaves because it suited her fancy.
They more than likely didn't have to be instructed by her to know how to behave. They had been indoctrinated already. Isn't that the point Injun is making? She too was indoctrinated to believe that is what she deserved.
And more likely she instructed them to behave as if they were slaves because it suited her fancy.
It's possible, but very unlikely. I think she asked her Mangkunegaran connection to send servants with proper knowledge of Royal Javanese customs. She then simply chose not to instruct them otherwise.
waarmstrong
27-04-10, 10:26
How convenient for the kleptomanic rich here that traditions provide them shelter -- justifying not only greed, but arrogance, as well. I hope the search for "servants with proper knowledge of Royal Javanese customs," is becoming more difficult.
Is murdering judges who rule against you also a Javanese custom or simply a Suharto family tradition?
How convenient for the kleptomanic rich here that traditions provide them shelter -- justifying not only greed, but arrogance, as well. I hope the search for "servants with proper knowledge of Royal Javanese customs," is becoming more difficult.
Is murdering judges who rule against you also a Javanese custom or simply a Suharto family tradition?
Today it's tough to find this kind of servants outside the walls of old Javanese Keratons. While on the surface Javanese tradition seems to be all about deference to authority, people do rebel against kings and lords they deem unjust. You can only take tyranny so far.
Oh yeah, Javanese people love to murder judges, especially Sundanese ones.
Oh yah and in central Java some house helpers still observed that 'Slave-Master' status (what should I call it tradition?).
I observed with my ex house-help that everytime Im lounging on the floor, she will kneel eveytime she passes me by. I told her not to do that, 'move on do your work'! but she said she is not comfortable if she dont kneel coz I am on the floor and its disrespect for me.. If I am eating on the table and she have to climb upstairs to her room, she have to bown down and say excuse me. She wont eat unless me and my husband has already eaten. I keep telling her, 'when you wake up in the morning, have your breakfast, eat first and dont wait if my husband wakes up at 11 because you are working and you will be my responsibility if you get sick...but still, she wont. I even told her that 'actually you are giving me more headaches thinking if you had eaten or not because you are waiting for me'. Until my husband just told me to stop stressing myself, you cant change them, even if you think you are being nice, you're just actually making it difficult for her.
shelly9782
27-04-10, 15:33
Im married to a chinese indonesian man for 6 years but i got married in canada and moved to u.s we only paid 4,000 because he lived in canada. But It's true Money is everything to them. To chinese respect and honor is everything, sorry to say I've been married 6 years and your royally screwed if you marry her unlesss you get out of Indonesia and she disowns her family, because you will never have freedom if you dont prove to them you make enough money in their eyes.
I'm stuck now and pregnant emotion and time mean nothing to them only money. And she will expect you to work and be away all the time. For me I never see husband because he works for family business. My advice to you get out of Indonesia while you can.
waarmstrong
27-04-10, 15:56
Today it's tough to find this kind of servants outside the walls of old Javanese Keratons. While on the surface Javanese tradition seems to be all about deference to authority, people do rebel against kings and lords they deem unjust. You can only take tyranny so far.
Oh yeah, Javanese people love to murder judges, especially Sundanese ones.
Lovely traditions. Recent event would suggest that Indian Expats are classed in the same group as unjust kings.
Lovely traditions. Recent event would suggest that Indian Expats are classed in the same group as unjust kings.
I'm not aware that they're classified as kings to begin with, let alone unjust ones. But if you say so, then I guess they had it coming.
Im married to a chinese indonesian man for 6 years but i got married in canada and moved to u.s we only paid 4,000 because he lived in canada. But It's true Money is everything to them. To chinese respect and honor is everything, sorry to say I've been married 6 years and your royally screwed if you marry her unlesss you get out of Indonesia and she disowns her family, because you will never have freedom if you dont prove to them you make enough money in their eyes.
I'm stuck now and pregnant emotion and time mean nothing to them only money. And she will expect you to work and be away all the time. For me I never see husband because he works for family business. My advice to you get out of Indonesia while you can.
your situation sounds like my sister's situation...I can understand how difficult it is for you.
your situation sounds like my sister's situation...I can understand how difficult it is for you.
Care to Elaborate?
I know a Singaporean that married a very Rich Indo Chinese GIRL and he is still as poor as a church mice.
Regards
Care to Elaborate?
I know a Singaporean that married a very Rich Indo Chinese GIRL and he is still as poor as a church mice.
Regards
My sister is married to a very rich chinese-filipino in the Philippines ( even on the news, last month that my brother in law 's cousin was kidnapped for ransom so i think they are rich enough). Her husband is the only son of the eldest daughter of the family therefore, he Have so many obligations for his family businesses and most of the time he forgot that he have his own family too. They live in a huge house with maids all over (typical) but my sister decided to move back to my mum's house coz most of the time she is alone and sometimes she doesnt even see her husband for months due to many business obligations that he needs to handle. When my sister moved back to my mum's house, he was so furious. Not because he misses her but because its a big disgrace for him, his family might think he is not providing well enough for my sister. No, he doesnt understand , it's not about money all the time.
Splitting up is simply not an option in my mind. I would rather lose the money than lose my fiance. I am though very interested to hear of other people's opinions, as the only advice I get on this is from my fiance and her parents? I simply can't discuss this with my parents, as I'm sure their opinion of the situation would rapidly sour, and that is certainly not good for long terms relations between my bride and her future in-laws. Does anyone here have experience of chinese-indonesian marriages? What is normal?
Thank you.
I'm Chinese-Indonesian, and I have to say that not all Chinese-Indonesian demands such lavish wedding.
While, yes, Chinese-Indonesian wedding is an occasion to reflect respect, status, and wealth; it doesn't mean that it has to be done that way.
First of all, according to Chinese-Indonesian, the groom has to pay for the wedding.
And if her family is rich, most likely you'll get a good size "angpao" for your wedding. Because most likely they'll invite the all-powerful and rich people to attend the wedding, and those rich people won't dare to give small change, just in case somebody write a note on who gives what/how much.
However, if you really love your fiance, talk to her about your financial situation. then both of you talk to her parents.
If she truly loves you and in the same financial set-of-mind (which is very important when the number one cause of divorce is financial problem), then she'll support you and will go for simpler wedding. Same goes with her parents.
If her parents still insist on it, let them pay for it. Just leave all the "angpao" for them.
Otherwise, have a wedding outside of Indonesia. Wedding out side of Indonesia tends to be way smaller, especially because her parents doesn't have to invite all the uncles, aunts, cousins, and any relation that you wouldn't know, or remember, or care anyway. And it is kind of accepted to have smaller wedding out of the country because the high cost.
However, during your first visit after the wedding, a reception is expected. But it'll be still a much smaller one than a wedding. And most of the time, her family will be the one who paid for it (since you already paid for the wedding).
My sister did this when she got married with an American. Both of them didn't see any good reason to have a big lavish wedding.
So they got married in her in-laws backyard in NY, with only 30 people or so. Very small, very humble, but my Mom and aunts are still talking about how intimate and beautiful it was.
Hope it helps.
Good luck to you.
ps: somebody's right, you can't own property in Indonesia. So forget that. Tell her family that you'll buy a house for her but in England, not in Indonesia. Man... I start to wonder if her family wants to rip you off. Just kidding. Most likely they just want to show off to all their relations that they get a stinking rich white English man for a son-in-law. Still sucks though.
Very good advice fisabel, complete with real world example. +rep to you.
Very good advice fisabel, complete with real world example. +rep to you.
Wow, thanks so much!
It just happen that I know the situation quite well.
Cool, I got more rep than posts LOL
Cool, I got more rep than posts LOL
Looks like a first. Well done.
Now the hard part. If you want to maintain the record, you either:
1) Keep up the good work, or
2) Shut TFU.
Gotta say, my vote's for the former!!!
waarmstrong
30-04-10, 09:19
No need for harshness. I would prefer more posts from Fisabel.
No need for harshness. I would prefer more posts from Fisabel.
Gotta say, my vote's for the former!!! ie Keep up the good work.
Gotta say, my vote's for the former!!! ie Keep up the good work.
Gotta say, my vote's for the former!!! ie Keep up the good work.
Is that clear enough? :smile2:
waarmstrong
30-04-10, 11:58
Sorry. Where's that thread about being called to task for mistakes? I need to update my contribution.
gottalovepuppies
02-05-10, 06:38
I find it appalling when people use 'culture' and 'custom' to force others into doing something they don't particularly want to.
As a Chinese Indonesian woman, I can categorically state it is neither part of our culture nor our custom to have weddings which will cost £50K+. It is definitely neither our culture nor our custom to request investment of £200K+ for a house they would not be even living it.
But hey ho; it's your money, your life and your decision. I sincerely hope you make the right one.
TheJester and Madcat: kudos to you on your responses to IndoMom's post. Both of you took the words right out of my mouth.
I find it appalling when people use 'culture' and 'custom' to force others into doing something they don't particularly want to.
As a Chinese Indonesian woman, I can categorically state it is neither part of our culture nor our custom to have weddings which will cost £50K+. It is definitely neither our culture nor our custom to request investment of £200K+ for a house they would not be even living it.
But hey ho; it's your money, your life and your decision. I sincerely hope you make the right one.
TheJester and Madcat: kudos to you on your responses to IndoMom's post. Both of you took the words right out of my mouth.
Lady, with all due respect - you are attacking a wrong person, I am not the one that will get married and spending the money you've qoute above, the OP does. Yes, I have made a comments to the Rainman responded in regards to 'equality' believed in some family and just happen my family have the strong opinions about it, so it's not about what you or other people....should you have a different view about it, great!
I rest my case, your ID name said it all..you are just not that 'cool'.
waarmstrong
02-05-10, 10:57
Not advisable to begin throwing mud at post #3. But as IndoMom points out, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
gottalovepuppies
02-05-10, 15:33
Lady, with all due respect - you are attacking a wrong person, I am not the one that will get married and spending the money you've qoute above, the OP does. Yes, I have made a comments to the Rainman responded in regards to 'equality' believed in some family and just happen my family have the strong opinions about it, so it's not about what you or other people....should you have a different view about it, great!
First of all, I was not 'attacking' you. My first three sentences were directed to the original poster. And I concurred with the posts by TheJester and Madcat on their responses to you as I think you were contradicting yourself in your post. Let me break it down below.
WOW, I feel bad for you if that what you think about your own people.
Being 'Bule' ( borrowing from your own words) or 'Inlander' is NOT a status, when you treat people with respect and dignity regardless who or what you are expect the same in return. Respect is simply something that you have to earn and I am sure you all know that.
It just come to my own observation, that some of the Indonesian people that used to or just come back from their overseas living act like they are better than their Indonesian counterpart..and do you expect them to respect you while you looking 'down' at them?! OR Watching a 'Bule' run a run with a short pant and tank top and sandal (rather than in the beach) in a prominent establishment asking for a top notch service....bloody annoying!
So it's not just money,folks! and if you think the other way around...maybe you need to go out and socialize more often or better yet, enroll your self into one of The John Roberts Powell etiquette class:).
You talk about having to 'earn' respect, but then you implied to Injun that he/she need to go out and socialise more often or 'better yet', to enroll themselves into an etiquette class. How is that even relevant? Are YOU not then acting as if you are better than your Indonesian counterpart (in this case: Injun) simply because you do not share their opinions/experiences?
I rest my case, your ID name said it all..you are just not that 'cool'.
Again, you are taking it to a personal level. Why am I not 'cool' for not sharing the same opinions as you?
Not advisable to begin throwing mud at post #3. But as IndoMom points out, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
I'm not throwing any mud at all. But at the same time, I am hardly going to jump on a bandwagon just because I'm new on a forum.
CAT FIGHT! CAT FIGHT!
Just watch the fur fly.
And those long purrfectly manicured fingernails gouging out the eyeballs!!!
Not advisable to begin throwing mud at post #3. But as IndoMom points out, everyone is entitled to an opinion.
As is Coolb entitled to hers and as seen able to articulate it.
"But at the same time, I am hardly going to jump on a bandwagon just because I'm new on a forum."
Nor should you have to either. Good for you.
Great to have another female in here with balls to balance out the chaff.
waarmstrong
02-05-10, 20:10
There are amble ways to express an opinion without disparaging others in the process, especially if the "not intended" was genuine.
I see nothing wrong with her voiced opinion here and how it was conveyed. One can be genuine in their thoughts but that doesn't mean those thoughts can't be disagreed with, challenged nor critcized.
"But at the same time, I am hardly going to jump on a bandwagon just because I'm new on a forum."
Nor should you have to either. Good for you.
Great to have another female in here with balls to balance out the chaff.
Too much information.:twitch:
<moderator hat>
Hi all I just wanted to remind everybody that this is an international forum used by many different people from many different cultures. These people may or may not fully understand when you are being sarcastic or genuine. I would highly encourage you to use a fake "<sarcasm>" tag to clearly show that you are being sarcastic.
Example: "<sarcasm>Yeah I totally agree that paman is handsome </sarcasm>."
This would clear up any confusion that may occur from people who only know/use English as their second language.
</moderator hat>
Interesting thread people. Make sure we keep this thread civil and respectful. I don't want to start chopping out post because of misunderstandings
waarmstrong
03-05-10, 09:51
Example: "<sarcasm>Yeah I totally agree that paman is handsome </sarcasm>."
Is sarcasm a euphemism for bald face lie? <sarcasm>
Example: "<sarcasm>Yeah I totally agree that paman is handsome </sarcasm>."
Yes I totally agree </sarcasm>." :)
I asked my gf about this issue today as she would know more about the customs than me and here's what she said:
Talk to the wife-to-be and let her know where you're coming from financially. She said that if you decided to go through with this as is, her family may be disappointed later on down the line when they see your real financial situation and that would create a different set of problems.
As for the ang-pao covering the cost of the wedding, she said the bigger the wedding, the less likely it'll cover or even come close to covering the wedding reception cost. The bigger the wedding reception means that you have money and won't need more so the guests would rather give flowers (those big congratulatory boards made of flowers) rather than money as it announces to other people who are getting married and who gives the flowers.
As for the property: she said that's completely unnecessary and just the family being a bit demanding.
I'm not sure how accurate this information is or if it's even still relevant / useful to the OP given the time span since original post but I hope it helps in some way.
<moderator hat>
I would highly encourage you to use a fake "<sarcasm>" tag to clearly show that you are being sarcastic.
Example: "<sarcasm>Yeah I totally agree that paman is handsome </sarcasm>."
This would clear up any confusion that may occur from people who only know/use English as their second language.
</moderator hat>
As a person who has dabbled in web coding, I can tell you the problems that might occur if English becomes a scripted language. Just imagine if someone forgets to put a end tag </> in their statement. The entire sentence would have a totally different meaning and often results in a garbled screen display. Maybe just sticking to smile faces would be simpler. ;)
When we had our wedding, I paid for a small family reception in Jkt, and my husband paid for the family wedding in UK. In Indonesia we have around 150 people, and in UK only 10, just my husband parents, sister, and a few friends. It was 7 years ago, I'm chinese indo too, but not a rich one. All the ang pao covers for my ticket to got to UK. So, yes my mom was disappointed that we don't have a big wedding, but as I pointed out to her, it's better to save the money for our children, and we have been lucky to be able to have a luxury holiday once a year(including seeing my family in that holiday).
As for buying a property, just be careful. If the marriage fails, you will lose the property and all the money, since foreigner is not entitled to buy any land/ property in Indonesia.
Maybe talk with your fiancee and see what she think about marrying abroad, and then You don't have to spend that much money. But, still it's up to you :) Good luck anyway...
caylastone
10-05-10, 00:56
obviously if the parents are looking for you to do such a thing, you cannot go away with it... you have to imagine, they are chinese indonesian with a daughter... they have came to indonesia from china and worked hard to establish here (you must understand about the chinese indonesian history a bit) and you MUST consider why they are asking you to do such things or requests. everything has a reason for it. maybe it is time to know better about their family too! dont you think? people in here are quite intact as family. family members are quite close to each other (except those who got a bit of western influenece/brainwash a bit... i am jut saying...) anyway, love is love, as parents, one day, you might ask for the same thing for your kid, esp for your daughter! i am serious! :)
better you ask for her family situation first, analysis it before you answer anything smart, well or stupid. gear up, be prepared and get your woman!! haha
people in here are quite intact as family. family members are quite close to each other (except those who got a bit of western influenece/brainwash a bit... i am jut saying...) anyway, love is love, as parents, one day, you might ask for the same thing for your kid, esp for your daughter! i am serious! :)
better you ask for her family situation first, analysis it before you answer anything smart, well or stupid. gear up, be prepared and get your woman!! haha
I just dont agree with you saying that western culture doesnt have close family relationship. I am asian and married to an Irish British citizen and in my experience his family always remember us in every ways. In times that we need help or in problem, my in laws and my husband third degree relatives in UK are always here for us.
Maybe in Asia, our concept of close family ties is that our family getting involve with our private lives but its different in the West. One thing for sure is that they dont intervene with our decisions as a couple and never ever tell us what to do with our lives. But ask for help, and they will fly across borders to help.
Not intervening when a person is about to make (or in the process of doing) a mistake is considered "not caring" around these parts, but in the western world intervening in such a case will get you labeled sanctimonious.
waarmstrong
10-05-10, 10:21
Way to put the kibosh on another stereo-type, Kverz.
I wonder why some Chinese-Indonesians expect other cultural heritages to be bend to accommodate theirs? Do some still view non-Chinese as barbarians?
very likely waarm, it must be the money getting at the back of some people's head.
I wonder why some Chinese-Indonesians expect other cultural heritages to be bend to accommodate theirs? Do some still view non-Chinese as barbarians?
I'm glad to see the word "some" there Waarmstrong, coz I'm about to get offended. :D
Coz some foreigners that I know think that their culture is the best one and expect other people to act/behave according to their culture. Very annoying.
rhubarbgrinder
10-05-10, 14:34
Elope - and get married in Vegas
Way to put the kibosh on another stereo-type, Kverz.
I wonder why some Chinese-Indonesians expect other cultural heritages to be bend to accommodate theirs? Do some still view non-Chinese as barbarians?
In general I see this with Indonesians period. Have you ever heard and Indonesian say, "We are getting married so as a westerner what are your needs to fulfill customs there?" I typicaly hear, "I am Indonesian and we have to follow our customs."
When someone enters into a mixed relationship if they aren't ready to be flexible on customs both ways, they shouldn't be in the relationship.
waarmstrong
10-05-10, 18:17
Too many superlatives and presumptive finger shaking -- is that cultural?
waarmstrong
10-05-10, 18:36
I'm glad to see the word "some" there Waarmstrong, coz I'm about to get offended. :D
Coz some foreigners that I know think that their culture is the best one and expect other people to act/behave according to their culture. Very annoying.
Most persons cleave to the cultural mores of their parents. Nothing unusual in thinking ones heritage is tops. Nor does being an expat (I prefer that term to the more negative "foreigner") relegate ones heritage to second class status. One of the joys of traveling and living abroad is exploring cultural differences up close and personal. I think Indonesians simply have the same kind of curiosity about American culture, if there is even such a thing.
I suppose there are still a few ugly Americans out there, but most of the expats I have run across certainly do not expect Indonesians, for example, to behave as if they were Americans, or British, or Australian, to name a few of the out-lander groups here.
I suppose there are still a few ugly Americans out there, but most of the expats I have run across certainly do not expect Indonesians, for example, to behave as if they were Americans, or British, or Australian, to name a few of the out-lander groups here.
I called them foreigners, not expats because they're not expats.
By all means, I didn't mean somebody in this forum. I guess it's just a rant in general.
And to tell you the truth, it's very unfortunate that I have to call some of them foreigners friends (I guess I don't have to, but then it's not part of my culture to do so :D)
In general I see this with Indonesians period. Have you ever heard and Indonesian say, "We are getting married so as a westerner what are your needs to fulfill customs there?" I typicaly hear, "I am Indonesian and we have to follow our customs."
When someone enters into a mixed relationship if they aren't ready to be flexible on customs both ways, they shouldn't be in the relationship.
The typical Indonesian way of compromise when it comes to weddings is by having it both ways. Cultural difference between people in central Java and west Sumatera is so big that having a single compromised reception is not practical. When a marriage crosses the cultural boundary, people just have two wedding receptions.
The other thing to consider is that many Indonesians don't consider westerners to have "tradition". Americans in particular are wary about the words tradition and culture, preferring something nebulous like "way of life". If you consider yourself devoid of tradition, can you blame Indonesians for believing it?
In the OP's case I detect an additional cultural gulf, that is between the middle and the upper class. Even in USA celebrities and other social elites tend to have lavish weddings.
obviously if the parents are looking for you to do such a thing, you cannot go away with it... you have to imagine, they are chinese indonesian with a daughter... they have came to indonesia from china and worked hard to establish here (you must understand about the chinese indonesian history a bit) and you MUST consider why they are asking you to do such things or requests. everything has a reason for it. maybe it is time to know better about their family too! dont you think? people in here are quite intact as family. family members are quite close to each other (except those who got a bit of western influenece/brainwash a bit... i am jut saying...) anyway, love is love, as parents, one day, you might ask for the same thing for your kid, esp for your daughter! i am serious! :)
It seems from the OPs chat he certainly has considered their reasons for what they ask, thats probably why hes trying to bend over backwards and over stretch himself to do it. The history of chinese indonesian struggles is well known generally and for one prepared to do so much as the OP is, hes probably relatively well clued up on the nasty mistreatment of the chinese in indonesia at this stage. But its a two way street and his life and family have a history to which seems to have no importance anymore in this new life hes trying to build with his girl. Thats really not very fair. For ones with such a supposed value on family life, are they trying to get close to him and understand his situation...it would seem not which is rather charmless.
I just dont agree with you saying that western culture doesnt have close family relationship. I am asian and married to an Irish British citizen and in my experience his family always remember us in every ways. In times that we need help or in problem, my in laws and my husband third degree relatives in UK are always here for us.
Maybe in Asia, our concept of close family ties is that our family getting involve with our private lives but its different in the West. One thing for sure is that they dont intervene with our decisions as a couple and never ever tell us what to do with our lives. But ask for help, and they will fly across borders to help.
Quite simply...thank you Kverz. Its not my custom to let my nose be put out of joint but the "family members are quite close to each other (except those who got a bit of western influenece/brainwash a bit... i am jut saying...) anyway, love is love" is such a crazy cold piece of commentary on the togetherness my family and the so many millions of families like mine and perhaps yours, said so matter of factly, brimming with confidence and ignorance. The only fortunate thing is its so wrong it doesnt warrant discussion as it lacks any substance.
The other thing to consider is that many Indonesians don't consider westerners to have "tradition". Americans in particular are wary about the words tradition and culture, preferring something nebulous like "way of life". If you consider yourself devoid of tradition, can you blame Indonesians for believing it?
In the OP's case I detect an additional cultural gulf, that is between the middle and the upper class. Even in USA celebrities and other social elites tend to have lavish weddings.
Just as a useful reminder the OP is english. I think this post shows one of the main problems faced by many in understanding each other, people are so far removed from it in terms of actual experience that they fail to differentiate between countries in the 'west'. The OP could be from England, France, Spain, Italy, Finland, USA, Germany, Iceland, Ireland etc. Many different varied cultures, sports, music, traditions, nebulous 'way of lifes', histories...?
It all becomes The West. All becomes USA. A whole mass of people from einstein to aristotle somehow reduced to worshippers of Maccies hamburger and fries. with no heritage beyond that, indeed we might just have been unwrapped from a shiny cardboard box the day before. All becomes a snapshot provided by Hollywood movies and 'USA celebrities'. No wonder then we are not imagined in 3D. Heck the world in Avatar probably seems to have more detailed history than the west.
As an aside if a country adopts such things from the WEST such as styles, clothes, trends, foods, science, techologies, internet cafes, infrastructure, music, radio talkshow segments, buildings, home and office design, umm democracy of sorts...chews up 80% of it perhaps and spits out the little remaining, and still claim that they believe that the west have no culture, way of life, no tradition, if they really dont like it, can we the big bold WEST confiscate it and sell it to the highest bidder? I have no intention of shoving my culture down the Easts neck, I love the Easts culture, and I m here to experience it. But every so often when I hear a full on denial of the peoples of the west and the existence of their values and cultures, well it makes me want to scream blue murder! Im sure I will get over it if i keep taking the pills right.
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