View Full Version : Freedom of religion in RI
Indonesian Constitution recognizes the right of freedom for religions (Pasal 29 UU Dasar 1945). At least for 5 of them (ie. Islam, Catholicism/Protestantism, Hindouism, Bouddhism and Confucianism). However, the past five years have seen more and more attacks towards minorities for their religious beliefs and the government has responded very softly to this problem, encouraging more religious intolerance. Numerous case of violence have been reported throughout the country. Police an justice acted very quickly in capturing and sentencing religious leaders of the deviant islamic sects such as Kingdom of Eden (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2006/02/25/court-date-approaches-lia-eden-sect.html), Ahmadiyah (http://indonesia.ahrchk.net/news/mainfile.php/ua2005/31/?alt=english) or Al-Qiyadah-Al-Islamiyah (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2007/10/31/sect-leader-detained.html), but in return, the attackers who often left countless homeless (http://www.tempointeraktif.com/hg/nusa/2008/06/10/brk,20080610-124928,id.html), wounded (http://wwrn.org/article.php?idd=29191) or even dead (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3905607.stm) are still at large in many case and prosecution almost inexistent (http://www.thejakartapost.com/node/169314). Catholics have also paid a heavy tribute with attacks (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2007/06/04/another-christian-church-attacked-bandung.html-0) and closure (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2005/08/26/w-java-police-back-closure-churches.html) of churches (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2005/08/29/govt-won039t-prosecute-muslim-hardliners-over-church-closure.html), schools and campus (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2008/08/22/attack-forces-indonesian-christians-campus.html).
Islam is normally made of tolerance and one may wonder why the government does nor responde accurately to the situation by promoting inter religious dialogue. It leaves us with this question: Is Indonesian freedom of religion really constitutional… or only conditional?
hmm.. well said...
but if you say about the freedom.. i dont think so..
you can see in paper and tv that in this country always have a religion war..
like church being burn or mesjid being tear down..
depends on what sight will you see...
hmm.. well said...
but if you say about the freedom.. i dont think so..
you can see in paper and tv that in this country always have a religion war..
like church being burn or mesjid being tear down..
depends on what sight will you see...
It belongs to the government to get the law respected. My question, in more direct terms, was: Why does the government let the shit happen while they should protect the constitutional rights of the minorities?
at the end... with all the questions, you will not found one good answer
all the government and all the constitutional are moving with one direction,
the biggest religion in indonesia are rule everything in here.
you can see on MUI, or the big clan like FPI and Pemuda pancasila.. and more
the majorities are the ruler in here, you like it or not.
you cannot find one from indonesia president is not in majorities religion
:D
The leader of the Front Pembela Islam (Islam Defending Front), Rizieq Shihab is at the moment on trial for ambush and for inciting hostility. He has rejected charges against him over the Monas attack against National Alliance for the Freedom of Faith and Religion activits who were demonstrating peacefully, last June. This attack by the FPI troops left more than 70 people wounded.
FPI leaders have publicly advocated for murders,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7RLCXNdKF4
but until now, no or almost no condamnations...:(
It is a new chance for Indonesian Justice to prove its independance.
One of the things that I was told by a few Indonesian friends is that there is indeed freedom of religion; as long as you choose to be either muslim, christian, buddhist, or whatever else might be "recognised". Being an atheist or agnostic for example just isn't an option.
So you're free to believe in any one of the previously approved religions.
One of the things that I was told by a few Indonesian friends is that there is indeed freedom of religion; as long as you choose to be either muslim, christian, buddhist, or whatever else might be "recognised". Being an atheist or agnostic for example just isn't an option.
So you're free to believe in any one of the previously approved religions.
You are right Madcat. The freedom of religion is normally granted by the Indonesian constitution. It says that the State of Indonesia should be based upon the belief in the One and Only one God. It then precluds politheistic religions, agnosticism or atheism. The same article of the constitution guarantees to all person, the freedom of worship, each according to his/her own religion or belief.
After the publication of the Constitution, Islam, Catholicism/Protestantism, Budhism, Hindhusism and Confucianism have been declared the authorised religion.
Unfortunately the freedom of religion is still far from a reality in Indonesia. Islam hard liners are given a free ground to play by not being prosecuted, not to say protected. By letting it be the government acts against the Constitution.
You'll always find religious hardliners in any country, it's not just limited to Islam (just so that's clear :D) -- but yes, freedom of religion should be renamed to "freedom to choose from 5 religions".
True religious freedom probably won't happen in Indonesia any time soon, most countries that have it have always had a rather even balance between the various religions in the country, so that it could grow into an equally free choice. In a country where most people are predominantly muslim, you won't quickly find true equality in religious freedom either.
It'll go along the "all religions are equal, but some religions are better than others" line. Indonesia also isn't the only place it happens :)
Indonesia also isn't the only place it happens :)
Of course... but if you pretend to be a Democracy, you try to have your Constitution and your people, including minorities, respected and protected. Constitution is the legal basis of a country. How can one ignore it to such point without taking a risk for the country?
I did not blame only hardliners, this is not my point. I blamed also the government for is "no action policy". Religious minorities in Indonesia represent about 15% of the total population (source (http://www.indonesia.go.id/id/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=112&Itemid=1722): cf Demografi), which is much more than the hardliners alltogether. The political choice of not doing anything to protect them could be costly in a year of election.
radit_bezit
27-08-08, 16:01
In a country where most people are predominantly muslim, you won't quickly find true equality in religious freedom either.
because i am muslim, i will said that it is not only in muslim majority only. in every country and that is including USA, England, France, Russian, ... they don't have any freedom for another religion especially for muslim. and a lot of discrimination in west country, doesn't matter you want to see it or not. there are always case in it, justice or not justice, discrimination or not discrimination.
it is very sensitive matter i think, because it is related to religion that is really believe and became a basic value of ppl. and it is a very complicated matters and possibly will become a very long and tiring discussion and argumentation, so it is much better to not discuss in this posting. cz every ppl have his own side and became a really personal discussion.
i know that atlantis want to discuss the justice from indonesian government that is showed and writing in the uu and so on. but it is not that easy to explain and comment in something complicated matters like that. and government indonesia is slow in every case not only in this kind matter? and indonesia has many problem lately and corruption is really rooted in indonesian government. it is not a special case, and the disappointed of indonesian ppl is not only that case. so many
am i right? correct me if i am wrong ...
in every country and that is including USA, England, France, Russian, they don't have any freedom for another religion ......
In at least three of the four countries that you named, and in contemporary times, I don't recall having seen, heard or read about churches, mosques, temples being burned down or illegally closed without an adequate legal reaction of the government. You could blame only Russia and the October 1917 revolution for this kind of behaviour and possibly France during a small part of our dark history during WWII (jewish persecutions).
and a lot of discrimination in west country,......
I totally agree with you. But this is more about race rather than religion. Discrimination is unfortunately still a big problem, but hopefully governments in Europe try to tackle the problem... We do have laws against discrimination and government enforce them. Would you say the same about RI government concerning the religious problem here. If you tell me that you feel that they do, please feel free to click on the links I provided.;)
it is very sensitive matter i think, because it is related to religion that is really believe and became a basic value of ppl. and it is a very complicated matters and possibly will become a very long and tiring discussion and argumentation, so it is much better to not discuss in this posting. cz every ppl have his own side and became a really personal discussion. ,......
A forum is made to discuss ideas... serious or not, sensitive or not... This is what we call freedom of expression.
My intention if you read carefully my post is not to blame Islam. It is to blame muslim hardliners, who obviously misuse the message of Islam, and government who just let it go...
and government indonesia is slow in every case not only in this kind matter? ,......
Erm... just to give you an exemple... Urip (former senior prosecutor) has been caught red handed in a corruption case in March 2008. He is standing trial at the moment and the sentence should be given in the beginning of next month (Defense arguments should be heard on Aug 28 and sentence to be given a week or so after.). When the government wants he can do very fast. I could give you a big bunch of links to check to see how fast he can be... ;)
I am talking about facts and would be totally open to hear any different opinion, based on facts also... I mean proven facts, not just talkings:D
To my opinion, the non respect of the freedom of religion is an important issue because it threatens the unity of the country. And Indonesia will definitively needs unity to cope with some of its challenge.
There is many things I would praise about Indonesia, and I could easily say that I love Indonesia... Loving a country is one thing, but it doesn't mean that one have to be blind and quiet when something is wrong.;)
radit_bezit
27-08-08, 17:10
so it would be a very long and complicated discussion i think ... hehehehe ... i will hold my opinion just now ... cz u know ... my limitation in english make me have to take a longer time to write ...
see u next time in this posting ...
so it would be a very long and complicated discussion i think ... hehehehe ... i will hold my opinion just now ... cz u know ... my limitation in english make me have to take a longer time to write ...
see u next time in this posting ...
No problem ;) You are welcome to discuss about it with me here in a cool and relaxed manner... Anyways, I am an agnostic. The Indonesian Constitution wouldn't allow me this status:(, so I became a Kristen... at least officially. C u ;)
radit_bezit
27-08-08, 17:20
hmmm ... i just know that agnostic is really exist from you... hehehehhee .
hmmm ... i just know that agnostic is really exist from you... hehehehhee .
Really? :eek: Wow... there is a much serious lack of inter-religious dialogue than what I thought then. ;) Many people around the world, especially in Europe and in the younger generation, would tell you that they are agnostic. Some would be even more radical and declare themselves atheist. Browse the web and check. :D
Here's a quick rundown on the difference between an agnostic and an atheist:
The atheist: "There is no such thing as God, why do you even believe, it is useless, and you should believe that there is no God".
The agnostic: "Since I can't prove that God exists, but I also can't prove he/she/it doesn't exist, I'll just wait and see".
In a nutshell really.
I'm also agnostic and where atlantis went for Christian I went for Muslim.
The atheist: "There is no such thing as God, why do you even believe, it is useless, and you should believe that there is no God".
The agnostic: "Since I can't prove that God exists, but I also can't prove he/she/it doesn't exist, I'll just wait and see".
Fair and easily understandable definition. Thanks to have provided it ;)
I can't claim credit, this one comes from my granny. Basically any time I utter something exceedingly clever, credit her for it.
I can't claim credit, this one comes from my granny. Basically any time I utter something exceedingly clever, credit her for it.
I'll remenber ;):)
radit_bezit
28-08-08, 13:03
hehehhee... what did u said actually cb?
Huckleberry
29-08-08, 10:30
There is no such freedom of religion in Indonesia. If you are not Moslem, keep low profile. That's how to survive in Indonesia.
Don't agree with that at all.
Just important to retain respect for religions as this matters to many people.
Freedom of religion exits in Indonesia to a certain extend. I live in a region predominantly christian, and they don't have problems to express their faith. Nor Muslim do by the way. Problems occur in regions where hardliners have strong support and where government is afraid of getting unpopular from financial and political support.
There is no such freedom of religion in Indonesia. If you are not Moslem, keep low profile. That's how to survive in Indonesia.
Religion is relation between human & God. Its a totally right of human theirself. Religion is combination between heart and logical. So pls open minded to face and think about it. Low profile is not js for non moslem, but for ALL HUMAN. Dont u want to change your mind now?:)
Religion is relation between human & God. Its a totally right of human theirself. Religion is combination between heart and logical. So pls open minded to face and think about it. Low profile is not js for non moslem, but for ALL HUMAN. Dont u want to change your mind now?:)
God ! We have preachers now :eek: ! I knew I shouldn't have wrote that thread :rolleyes:
Java Hammer
06-09-08, 11:21
If there is freedon of religion and people that beleive in 1 God, why is Judaism not up there with Christianity and Islam etc - seems that is political bias as both are based on many principles of Judaism.
Rumah Natural
06-09-08, 11:35
There is no such freedom of religion in Indonesia. If you are not Moslem, keep low profile. That's how to survive in Indonesia.
Dear Huckleberry,
its a matter on how you give respect to other religions and it happens in any country. i happened to have a quiet different treatment in two or three european countries for having a moslem name. they kept my passport for a moment, mostly 45 minutes, and made me stood like i was a terrorist actor in front of other people who waited for immigration check, asked me same questions over and over again before they let me go... no, i wont blame my parents for giving me such a wonderful name.
Dear Huckleberry,
its a matter on how you give respect to other religions and it happens in any country. i happened to have a quiet different treatment in two or three european countries for having a moslem name. they kept my passport for a moment, mostly 45 minutes, and made me stood like i was a terrorist actor in front of other people who waited for immigration check, asked me same questions over and over again before they let me go... no, i wont blame my parents for giving me such a wonderful name.
The example you give is a good example of discrimination that you may face in Europe because of the colour of your skin or because of your religious appartenance. It has to be condemned, for sure and it is often a shame for me to hear such discrimination happening in my home country.
However there is, to my opinion, a big difference with what happen sometimes here, when I hear or read about some being restrained in their basic rights to practise their faith. Europe could be blamed for discrimination but hardly for restrictions in the freedom of religion I think. You would barely hear about illegal closure of temples or mosques without strong governmental reaction. But you are right to highlight that discrimination exists in every country. this is not only in Indonesia. It is just worth when nothing, or almost nothing, is done to enforce the numerous violations. :(
Littlest Hobo
06-09-08, 23:10
CA, I think what Atlantis means Europe is France. He did say his home country. UK is on a league of its own. Have you heard in yesterday's news that a 23 year old soldier who has been serving in Afghanistan since he was 16, was refused a hotel room in Woking because he was a soldier? He's pre-booked this room!
One of the minsters says the hotel's attitude is 'deplorable'. What truly deplorable is that his craven politically correct labour government cares more about the rights of sexual/ethnic minorities than the soldiers. If this person is a woman, black and gay, then the hotel would have been condemned and probably closed for further investigation. This is political correctness gone mad!!
Mind you talking about refusing entry because of your name, do you recall Cat Stevens who's changed his name to Yusuf Islam. He was refused entry to USA a few years back!!
sumyunggai
07-09-08, 03:04
Mind you talking about refusing entry because of your name, do you recall Cat Stevens who's changed his name to Yusuf Islam. He was refused entry to USA a few years back!!
Don't think it was because of his name..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Stevens#Denial_of_entry_into_the_United_States
Though I noticed a typical bunch of 20-something-year-old guys in the immigration queue when I went to Las Vegas, on their way to have a fun week/end, the one guy that was pulled out into the interrogation room was the Pakistani/Indian looking guy (though he was clearly 100% a modern urban British male). I think he had a fun hour.
if anything the racism in the UK is anti white , and racism between Bengali's, Indians and Pakistani's. Immigration in the UK is largely manned by "foreigners" so I'd love to know how this racism could be applied.
CA, I think what Atlantis means Europe is France. He did say his home country.
I think we may have misunderstood each other. My point was the following:
- I acknowledge that there is SOMETIMES descrimination in Europe toward minotities. It doesn't mean that it is all the time,everytime, everywhere or even that it is done by a majority. It happens. Point. One who would say that it NEVER happens would be, to my opinion, a lier or a blind.
- I tried to say that even if there is discrimination we do have laws against it in Europe and we do enforce it. If one is proven discriminating someone because of his religion, color of skin or sex, one will be sentenced. Unlike in Indonesia SOMETIMES.
- I tried to pass the idea that discrimination that one MAY face in Europe are nothing to compare with the freedom of religion SOMETIMES not being respected here, in Indonesia
It was my point and I am afraid that not being a native english speaker, I can not make it clear enough and it sometimes leads to misunderstanding.
I should have developped more my point to make it more clear. It was first my plan but I didn't want to go to far from the OP. Concerning UK, and Europe, we can not blame customs officer, to my opinion. Being suspicious, asking questions is part of their job. They are there to inforce the law and protect us by preventing that any silly guy enter. After Sept 11th, the Bali bombings, the London and Madrid bombings, just to list a few of them, things have changed. There is extremism in any religion. Unfortunately muslim extremism is a serious problem and threat for the western world and they are very keen in exporting it. In reaction, the West has enforced his checking policy and it is true that muslims are more "carefully" checked when they enter Europe. But I'd put no blame on french, UK, german or Italian custom officers. This may look discriminating, but who is to be blame? This extremism would may be seriously disminished if the local governments in the countries that are prone to export it would do something to tackle the problem. Rampant corruption in administration doesn't help either. I remenber having met this indonesian girl who planned a trip to Europe a few years ago. She shows me two genuine valid Paspor RI with her name !!!:confused:
Be aware, that customs officers in Europe do know of all of that and subsequently check more carefully people coming from this country... even if they are educated young indonesian girls;)
About UK, I think CA may be right. There may have less discrimination than in the rest of Europe. It is certainly due of the fact that foreign communauties seem, to my opinion, more integrated (willing to integrate?) to the local culture. It is also for sure due to the ties that UK still have with the commonwealth. In France, we have a troubled history with our former colonies and there is ressentment here and there.
23 year old soldier who has been serving in Afghanistan since he was 16
There is not, nor has there even been a member of the British Army serving in a sphere of conflict at the age of 16 but your point is well made
There is not, nor has there even been a member of the British Army serving in a sphere of conflict at the age of 16 but your point is well made
Though it could be possible since British troops have been based in Afghanistan since the US led invasion there in 2001, I agree with you and think that they won't deploy a 16 years old sldier. Maybe it is a typo error from LH.
Littlest Hobo
07-09-08, 16:39
No, it's not a typo error but that's what I read in the newspaper. I don't know the in and out of the army things
"
Corporal Tomos Stringer, 23, had booked to stay at the Metro Hotel, in Woking, Surrey, while helping organise the funeral of a friend killed in action.
On arrival, reception desk staff asked him for identification and he handed them his military pass.
Corporal Stringer, who was not dressed in uniform at the time, was astonished when they turned him away, claiming it was not company policy to allow Armed Forces personnel to stay at the hotel.
Yesterday the Metro Hotel, owned by American Amusements Ltd, also based in Woking, at first declined to comment.
But after news of Corporal Stringer's treatment emerged, it was flooded with angry calls from the public and issued an apology, blaming a mistake made by the receptionist on duty. He joined the Army at 16 and served in Iraq before being posted to Afghanistan. He is due to return home from his second tour of the country at the end of the month."
I think it means that he joined the army when he was 16 and later on he joined the british corps in Irak and Afghanistan, may be at the age of 20 or more.
I think it means that he joined the army when he was 16 and later on he joined the british corps in Irak and Afghanistan, may be at the age of 20 or more.
You could be right there...I see you are not just a pretty face All4you! Are you single? we can go out for a doughnut or two sometimes.;)
You could be right there...I see you are not just a pretty face All4you! Are you single? we can go out for a doughnut or two sometimes.;)
I am a single but very busy teaching. Thanks for the invitation anyway. I don't eat doughnut either. Not good for my diet. You know women, do you ?
You could be right there...I see you are not just a pretty face All4you! Are you single? we can go out for a doughnut or two sometimes.;)
Hagrid... This is a thread about freedom of religion... not a place to pick up ladies (no offense intended)! Some serious place talking about serious issue...
What a womaniser you are... Bakiak the other day, now you are targetting All4you... :rolleyes:
Just pick one, indonesian if possible (no offense intended again!), and I'll give you some tips about visas and stuff, promise!;) but Get the Hell out of here with your big feet !!!:D
Sorry sorry...my humble apologies...it's just I've been living in a jungle for a while with fellow ugly giants..they are all gross...even the giant women all got hairy armpits and grow moustaches...so any chance anybody with two legs scratching my hairy back was a bit of a treat for me...I won't do it again...
Sorry sorry...my humble apologies...it's just I've been living in a jungle for a while with fellow ugly giants..they are all gross...even the giant women all got hairy armpits and grow moustaches...so any chance anybody with two legs scratching my hairy back was a bit of a treat for me...I won't do it again...
Are you trying to say us that KW went missing in the jungle while being with you (cf Who has stolen KW/Expa Chat)?:rolleyes:
They said hard liner moslems are not part of the main stream moslem but so far they don't do anything toward what they called only a very small portion of moslems.
Here in indonesia, so many called themselves as main stream moslems are actually support such a thing called majority dominance.
When it happened a church being burnt down to the grown or a christian school which already established for years suddenly being forced to close down, it won't never be a national issue but I remember years back when lebaran was at the same time as hari raya nyepi in bali, it was a national issue. Jakarta had to pay attention to bali for this specific matter.
They forbid christian to expand the religion by looking for new disciples but they can expand their religion into papua freely. In the west sumatra, mentawai island also sistematically they put a scholarship bait for young people which wants to go to high school or university as long as they leave their christianity behind and embrace islam, you know what? it works!
It is something that not happened when I was a small kid here in indonesia. Moslems are very tolerant, we really basudara. Now some of them (even from my friend at young age) won't say selamat hari natal/merry christmas anymore due to a fatwa from MUI that if someone saying/greeting to you with "merry christmas" means s/he admit the existence of Jesus christ. I guess the condition here is better back then.
Littlest Hobo
11-09-08, 03:16
Plenox... I have been away too long so I only knew Indonesia as you knew it then!.. It is really sad to know if the situation is as you have explained.:(
Moslems are very tolerant, we really basudara. Now some of them (even from my friend at young age) won't say selamat hari natal/merry christmas anymore due to a fatwa from MUI that if someone saying/greeting to you with "merry christmas" means s/he admit the existence of Jesus christ. I guess the condition here is better back then.
Would you be manadonese by any chance?;)
Nope, sorry I am not a binyo
I don't know about that, but I believe the law and the police WILL protect people from religious discriminacy in USA, England and France. I don't know about Russia.
I believe the key is in the willingness of the government to put everyone in the same place in front of the law, no matter if the person belongs to minority or majority, etc. And at the moment, it seems that Indonesian government succumbs to the hardliners like FPI.
I am from a country mostly catholic instead but , I cannot say because of that , the religion tolerance is a lot better there . It was already good even before religion or race discrimination were defined as a crime . There , religion is more a secondary subject , not written in any document or forms and not normally asked in any interview . When in France once , a person told me that at the workplace's restaurant , it was normally recommended not to talk about religion or politics , because of the controversy these subjects cause .
I am from a country mostly catholic instead but , I cannot say because of that , the religion tolerance is a lot better there . It was already good even before religion or race discrimination were defined as a crime . There , religion is more a secondary subject , not written in any document or forms and not normally asked in any interview . When in France once , a person told me that at the workplace's restaurant , it was normally recommended not to talk about religion or politics , because of the controversy these subjects cause .
France has this law about laicity which seperated religion from government in 1905. It is therefore forbidden to do proselytism or to harbour obvious religious signs (such has a big christian cross or a muslim jilbab) in schools or public administration. We do think that religion is a personal issue, therefore you will often meet people who would recommand not to talk about it in public areas so that you don't take the risk to offend anyone.
Asking the religion of someone in an interview for a job could be seen as a possible discrimination and severely condemned.
radit_bezit
19-09-08, 09:35
They forbid christian to expand the religion by looking for new disciples but they can expand their religion into papua freely. In the west sumatra, mentawai island also sistematically they put a scholarship bait for young people which wants to go to high school or university as long as they leave their christianity behind and embrace islam, you know what? it works!
It is something that not happened when I was a small kid here in indonesia. Moslems are very tolerant, we really basudara. Now some of them (even from my friend at young age) won't say selamat hari natal/merry christmas anymore due to a fatwa from MUI that if someone saying/greeting to you with "merry christmas" means s/he admit the existence of Jesus christ. I guess the condition here is better back then.
About expanding religion --> do you know that there is an orphanage using this system to expand christian religion in Lembang Bandung? And even they will give money as long as they change religion to Christian .... so I think it is even. And yes it is works, my childhood friend change his religion so he can get the money.
About about "don't said merry chrismast" hmmm ... i will explain more about it ...
In Islam there is only one god --> Allah SWT. If you believe that there is another god beside ALLAH SWT so he/she is musrik. And musrik is one of the highest sin in Islam and it is an unforgiven sin. So, for some people and MUI saying "Marry christmast" indicated that he/she believe that there is another God beside ALLAH and it is sin. SO it is not because we are not tolerate to you. It is how we are worship our god in our religion. But there are ppls not behaviour like that. It is different for every single person to think whether it is including accepting another god beside ALLAH or not.
CMIIW
"About expanding religion --> do you know that there is an orphanage using this system to expand christian religion in Lembang Bandung? And even they will give money as long as they change religion to Christian .... so I think it is even. And yes it is works, my childhood friend change his religion so he can get the money."
It's sad if it happens. But I do meet people changing religion from Islam to Christianity without getting any money. But if people change his/her religion because of money, or because of marriage, it only shows how much she/he values religion.
And as a matter of fact, IF it's a christian orphanage, and then people put the orphans to the orphanage, it's a common sense that the children will be raised as Christians. The same token happen to the Islamic orphanages, if children are put there, they will be raised as muslims. I don't understand on how an orphanage can spread christian religion and offer money? Sound strange to me.
" About about "don't said merry chrismast" hmmm ... i will explain more about it ...
In Islam there is only one god --> Allah SWT. If you believe that there is another god beside ALLAH SWT so he/she is musrik. And musrik is one of the highest sin in Islam and it is an unforgiven sin. So, for some people and MUI saying "Marry christmast" indicated that he/she believe that there is another God beside ALLAH and it is sin. SO it is not because we are not tolerate to you. It is how we are worship our god in our religion. But there are ppls not behaviour like that. It is different for every single person to think whether it is including accepting another god beside ALLAH or not."
Well, It seems you don't really know about the Trinity and Christian faith on this. We don't have another God but God (YHWH = I am I).
I believe the most important thing in Indonesia is NOT about this wishing, but the right of the citizens to practise his/her religions without any threat. There are a lot of things happened in Indonesia, for example Churches destruction, the Banning of Ahmaddiyah, etc. We know that we have UUD pasal 29 to guarantee the freedom of religion.
Well put JohnJohn. I totally agree with you!
Yeah, we are now more talking and put pressure on something that in my opinion does not have any essentials for the religions but rather to destruct tolerant manner which already lives long ago. Wishing doesn't mean you automatically believe in thing that other people believe.
To punish women who wears mini skirt because they tempt men's lust (it's a sin) than it's a silly thing too. Why don't you punish the men who don't control his lust to any women who wear mini skirt....
some say equality between men and women but then only women that may do things wrong and be punished LOL
And as a matter of fact, IF it's a christian orphanage, and then people put the orphans to the orphanage, it's a common sense that the children will be raised as Christians. The same token happen to the Islamic orphanages, if children are put there, they will be raised as muslims.
Thanks to bring it out. I never realised it and always wondered why orphanage were doing that. I now understand much better. It makes totally sense. People who would contact the muslim or christian orphanage expect the kids that they are ready to angkat/adopt to be of the same religion than them.
I don't understand on how an orphanage can spread christian religion and offer money? Sound strange to me.
I read months ago (was it in kompas???:confused:) that a new law concerning orphanages and kids in general, was implemented soon after that SBY's administration got in power. To make it short, the law says that public money would be given to orphanage/panti asuhan depending on the number of kids to recruit and providing that they give education for the kids. The article I read was pointing the fact that it should be better regulated because some of these orphanage, for example, are attached to hard line pesantren. The article was saying that creating orphanage became a business in Java in the past 5 years because of the flood of public money. A huge majority of these newly created orphanage are muslim, but I am sure that christian orphanage use the same "recruitment technic" as per RB post.
I believe the most important thing in Indonesia is NOT about this wishing, but the right of the citizens to practise his/her religions without any threat. There are a lot of things happened in Indonesia, for example Churches destruction, the Banning of Ahmaddiyah, etc. We know that we have UUD pasal 29 to guarantee the freedom of religion.
Restricting the freedom of religion will just undermine the unity of the country. Indonesia can not afford to loose part of its present integrity. TimTim became independant a few years ago. By not allowing the minorities to feel confident and secure and by refusing to some the basic rights guaranteed by the constitution, Indonesian government help to fuel secessionist aspirations. It would be time to understand it.
Well guys,
This is sad, but I guess Indonesia still better than Saudi, I think.
Christians are not allowed to worship in public and even private worship is carried out at a great risk. Bibles are torn from hands and thrown into paper shredders. Crosses are ripped from necks. For Christians living in Saudi Arabia, both foreign workers and citizens, the risk is great and the price is high to serve Christ.
Ironically, Saudi Arabia is a member of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. Officials in the Kingdom have stated that Muslims and non-Muslims enjoy the same basic freedom of religion. And yet today, dozens of Christians have been arrested, interrogated and deported to their home countries.
That's exactly what I am afraid to happen in Indonesia once Sharia Law is applied. It seems to me that countries applying Sharia Law don't adhere to human right (including religion right). At the moment, without Sharia Law, it's hard to build churches, even people can get busted just because they organize prayers IN the house (usually Christians). If it's hard for Christians (who are the largest minority in Indonesia) then I am sure it's even harder for other minorities as well.
I see now some people are trying to impose Sharia Law, little by little, including through the Porn Bill, and I only see that Indonesia has deviated from the notion of our founding fathers and it's sad.
Do you think, as expats, Indonesia is heading to disunity?:(
That's exactly what I am afraid to happen in Indonesia once Sharia Law is applied. It seems to me that countries applying Sharia Law don't adhere to human right (including religion right). At the moment, without Sharia Law, it's hard to build churches, even people can get busted just because they organize prayers IN the house (usually Christians). If it's hard for Christians (who are the largest minority in Indonesia) then I am sure it's even harder for other minorities as well.
I see now some people are trying to impose Sharia Law, little by little, including through the Porn Bill, and I only see that Indonesia has deviated from the notion of our founding fathers and it's sad.
Do you think, as expats, Indonesia is heading to disunity?:(
To my opinion, Indonesia is living a crucial period. The next ten years will teach us a lot about its future as a nation. Some countries (eg. the Balkans) have paid a very high price for not being able to insure security to its minorities and keep unified the country. It should be an example of the mistakes not to be done...
If you live in Jakarta, you may not realise it, but some regions doesn't feel that they receive a fair treatment from the central government. In some places, being javanese or jakartan does not bring you all praise.
Indonesian has tried through its tentative of decentralisation of powers to reinforce local aspirations and keep unity. This was to my opinion a very good move. They also tried by a strong transmigration politic to reduce the regional particularities. This last one has been proven a very costly mistake in The Maluku and in Central Sulawesi and has its fair part of responsabilities in the 1999 troubles and the thousands of deaths that it provocated .
If I would not believe in the chance of the country to remain a united one, I would relocate and wouldn't aspire to become Indonesian myself.
This issue of freedom of worship is a very tough one and the government should better treat this problem despite of favoring its electoral consideration to please the radicals.
So far to date, 15 voters have expressed their opinion on the little poll initiated among us. None have express an opinion saying that freedom of religion is respected in Indonesia. All consider that it is not always or not at all respected.
radit_bezit
21-09-08, 13:00
To punish women who wears mini skirt because they tempt men's lust (it's a sin) than it's a silly thing too. Why don't you punish the men who don't control his lust to any women who wear mini skirt....
some say equality between men and women but then only women that may do things wrong and be punished LOL
it is not the same with being musrik honey ... you are comparing anti-susila things with musrik ... it is totally different ...
musrik even have the highest places sin in the my religion ... it is even worst than killing people, robbering ppl .... Believing in one god is the most crutial in my religion ... so don't comparing it with that kind of lust ...
radit_bezit
21-09-08, 13:11
It's sad if it happens. But I do meet people changing religion from Islam to Christianity without getting any money. But if people change his/her religion because of money, or because of marriage, it only shows how much she/he values religion.
And as a matter of fact, IF it's a christian orphanage, and then people put the orphans to the orphanage, it's a common sense that the children will be raised as Christians. The same token happen to the Islamic orphanages, if children are put there, they will be raised as muslims. I don't understand on how an orphanage can spread christian religion and offer money? Sound strange to me.i do met ppl change his religion without money etc ...
i just want to tell you that christian also has the freedom to expanding his religion ... not as plenox said in his opinion ... thats all ..
and btw it is not a christian orphanage ... i do will understand if happened like that ...
Well, It seems you don't really know about the Trinity and Christian faith on this. We don't have another God but God (YHWH = I am I).
I believe the most important thing in Indonesia is NOT about this wishing, but the right of the citizens to practise his/her religions without any threat. There are a lot of things happened in Indonesia, for example Churches destruction, the Banning of Ahmaddiyah, etc. We know that we have UUD pasal 29 to guarantee the freedom of religion.yes i know, again i just commenting what plenox said about a-not-saying "merry christmass" by MUI as indicating of not tolerating ppl ...
About your god ... i believe it is your faith ... and it is your right
and about ahmadiyah ... it is more complex and need a lot of pages to explain about it ... but i am tired .. need to sleep .. see you next time ...
radit_bezit
21-09-08, 13:15
That's exactly what I am afraid to happen in Indonesia once Sharia Law is applied. It seems to me that countries applying Sharia Law don't adhere to human right (including religion right). At the moment, without Sharia Law, it's hard to build churches, even people can get busted just because they organize prayers IN the house (usually Christians). If it's hard for Christians (who are the largest minority in Indonesia) then I am sure it's even harder for other minorities as well.
I see now some people are trying to impose Sharia Law, little by little, including through the Porn Bill, and I only see that Indonesia has deviated from the notion of our founding fathers and it's sad.
Do you think, as expats, Indonesia is heading to disunity?:(
hmm ... suni you mean? ah i really disagree if that is happened .. better run to another country ....
"i just want to tell you that christian also has the freedom to expanding his religion ... not as plenox said in his opinion ... thats all ..
and btw it is not a christian orphanage ... i do will understand if happened like that ..."
Care to name it? It's strange that it can happen without FPI and AGAP will take care (read: destroy) it. And one more thing, even to gather and pray in PRIVATE houses now get tougher to be done in Indonesia for christians. And even churches built long time ago now got destroyed because of many accusations.
"yes i know, again i just commenting what plenox said about a-not-saying "merry christmass" by MUI as indicating of not tolerating ppl ...
About your god ... i believe it is your faith ... and it is your right
and about ahmadiyah ... it is more complex and need a lot of pages to explain about it ... but i am tired .. need to sleep .. see you next time ..."
Good night! Sleep tight!
"hmm ... suni you mean? ah i really disagree if that is happened .. better run to another country ...."
I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mean that you disagree with disunity? And why should minorities run from Indonesia? Do you think Papua people must leave papua or the Balinese must leave Bali?
If the government doesn't have guts to protect minority, my prediction is that minorities (especially in the places where they are majority) will not see any reason to keep on being parts of Indonesia without proper protection and treatment as citizens, and not treated like 2nd class citizens just like what is happening now. The government must stop appeasing hard line muslims like FPI and AGAP and return to the real notion of our founding fathers. IF not, then it's a betrayal to the Independence proclamation by Soekarno.
That's my opinion.
radit_bezit
21-09-08, 15:11
Care to name it? It's strange that it can happen without FPI and AGAP will take care (read: destroy) it. And one more thing, even to gather and pray in PRIVATE houses now get tougher to be done in Indonesia for christians. And even churches built long time ago now got destroyed because of many accusations.
FPI is not yet touched Bandung and Lembang ... thats why ... And if FPI touched Lembang I think, there will be a war ... remembering that many Lembangs people love to go to Prostitution and Drinking and Gambling and drugs ... and you know how terrible the farmer will get angry right ....
eventhough FPI naming hiself as islam community ... it doesn't mean that many muslim in Indonesia agree with it ...
"hmm ... suni you mean? ah i really disagree if that is happened .. better run to another country ...."
I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mean that you disagree with disunity? And why should minorities run from Indonesia? Do you think Papua people must leave papua or the Balinese must leave Bali?
If the government doesn't have guts to protect minority, my prediction is that minorities (especially in the places where they are majority) will not see any reason to keep on being parts of Indonesia without proper protection and treatment as citizens, and not treated like 2nd class citizens just like what is happening now. The government must stop appeasing hard line muslims like FPI and AGAP and return to the real notion of our founding fathers. IF not, then it's a betrayal to the Independence proclamation by Soekarno.
That's my opinion.
i mean it is for me .... it is better for me to runaway to another country if suni become the law in this country ... because it is spooky ...
FPI is not yet touched Bandung and Lembang ... thats why ... And if FPI touched Lembang I think, there will be a war ... remembering that many Lembangs people love to go to Prostitution and Drinking and Gambling and drugs ... and you know how terrible the farmer will get angry right ....
eventhough FPI naming hiself as islam community ... it doesn't mean that many muslim in Indonesia agree with it ...
i mean it is for me .... it is better for me to runaway to another country if suni become the law in this country ... because it is spooky ...
Actually the sign of Islam extremism has been there in Bandung as well, because additionally West Java was the area of DI/TII.
The problem is, I wonder WHY muslims keep silent (with the exception of Gus Dur) on FPI's actions. There are lots of muslim celebrities such as Amien Rais, etc, but they usually condemned their actions because 'THEY GIVE BAD NAMES TO ISLAM". not because they are simply not right.
Suni? I don't know about Suni, but what I know, Sharia Law's practice (if I am not mistaken, is called Fiqh), is based on Quran and Hadis, so it doesn't belong solely to Sunni Islam. For example, Saudi Arabia people mostly are sunni and Iranian people mostly are Shiah, but their treatment on minorities and different religions are similar.
That's my opinion.http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
radit_bezit
25-09-08, 01:47
hehehhee ... john ...
sometimes i forgot which one is sunni and which one is syiah (what kind of muslim i am huh? hehehe) ... what i mean is syiah ... sorry ... and yes sharia law's practice is based on Quran and Hadist ... and what i mean if this country based on syiah law, i will leave and go to another country ... because it is spooky ...
I never called myself as sunni or syiah or anything else ... I just islam - thats all ...
it is very complex ya.... if you want talking about sunni, syiah, ahmadiyah and why they are not respect each other ... hehehehe ... it is a very very complex things ... can not define it by single or double paragraph ...
silent when FPI actions? ... i am not too really agree with it ... Cz if you notice in the news, there are ppls actually fighting with them ... when they are act too barbarian ... (and sure they are being called kafir ... hehehehe ... what an arogant comment right?) and the rest is too frighten to do something or like me ... don't really care about everything except my butt ...
Yes, there is an Islam extrimism but it is not FPI and it has a different working style ... and it has nothing to do with DI/TII .... and it is very complicated ... and i am too lazy to explain about it ... hehehehe ... cz can make my finger hurts ...
Happy holiday all ...
Aussies, and a few other citizens from western nations could certainly feel offended to hear this one:
Bali bombers may get Idul Fitri jail term remissions
The Jakarta Post | Sat, 09/27/2008 3:53 PM | National
The Law and Human Rights Ministry is considering granting jail sentence remissions to nine convicted Bali I and II bombers on the occasion of Idul Fitri this year, a provincial law official said.
"The proposals submitted to the minister of law and human rights call for jail sentence remissions of one to two months," Anak Agung Anom, head of the registration section of Bali province`s law and human rights office, said in Denpasar as quoted by state news agency Antara.
Five of the convicts were involved in the terrorist bombing in Kuta, Legian, Bali, on October 12, 2002, and the other four in the bombing attack in Jimbaran, Bali, three years later.
But Anom did not disclose the exact lengths of the remissions proposed for each of the nine convicts.
He said if the proposals were approved by the minister, it would mark the second time for the nine convicts to receive jail term reductions. The first time they had their jail terms cut was on the occasion of Indonesia`s Independence Day last August 17.
On Independence Day 2008, the 2002 Bali bombers received a remission of five months each, and the 2005 bombers three months each, Anom said.
Off course, Schapelle Corby didn't get the same chance, nor Mickael Blanc or many of the westerners who are jailed in drug related cases. They were for sure proven guilty by an Indonesian court, but I wonder what made their crime much more horrible if compared with participating in bombings which let so many deads and wounded and harm the economy of a whole country???
That's crazy. All of the terrorists should be condemned to death or at least life sentence without parole.:mad:
This only shows that the political bargaining power of the islam extremists is high now in Indonesia.
I really feel bad hearing this.:mad:
Also remember that the "Christian Terrorists" like Tibo, cs, while in fact many evidences showed conflicting conclusions, were executed right away.
I smell something here and the smell is VERY strong.http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/images/icons/icon4.gif
Also remember that the "Christian Terrorists" like Tibo, cs, while in fact many evidences showed conflicting conclusions, were executed right away.
I was really thinking about those three when I read the above article. However Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus Da Silva and Marianus Riwu (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2006/04/08/govt-presses-poso-3-execution-plan.html) were condemned for murders which happened in 2000 and were executed in 2006 (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2006/09/24/mourners-pray-executed-poso-three.html). Can not say "right away". However, for the conflicting conclusions... I do agree 200%.
Well, if I am not mistaken, they were judged after Amrozi, cs and Amrozi cs are still safe and sound. :mad:
Purple|Fairy
30-09-08, 00:19
Freedom Of Religion In Indonesia ???????
http://i38.tinypic.com/etvg91.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/1nz9qa.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/14alu8l.jpg
http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/more/bigs/a063.gif
Well, if I am not mistaken, they were judged after Amrozi, cs and Amrozi cs are still safe and sound. :mad:
The three of Poso were judged and sentenced to death in 2001 (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2006/09/20/executing-tibo-solves-nothing.html). Check the link. You may be confused whith their appeal.
The above link is also documenting a bit about the very conflicting conclusions.
Amrozi was brought to court in August 2003. The time schedule for the execution of the three of Poso and the Bali bombers isn't that different... for the moment. However huge differences exist in the proofs given about the guiltiness of the convicted. No doubt for Amrozi and co, they have been admitting it and the prosecution was well documented to my opinion. Can not say the same for the martyrs of Poso.
Kasus Tibo adalah sebuah kasus mengenai penyelesaian Kerusuhan Poso (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerusuhan_Poso). Tibo sendiri merupakan salah satu terdakwa dari tiga terdakwa dalam kasus ini. Tiga orang terdakwa dalam kasus ini adalah Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus da Silva, dan Marinus Riwu. Mereka ditangkap pada Juli dan Agustus 2000. Dan dijatuhi vonis mati pada April 2001 di Pengadilan Negeri Palu, dan ditegaskan kembali dengan Pengadilan Tinggi Sulawesi Tenggara pada 17 Mei (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_Mei) 2001 (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001). Pengadilan memutuskan bahwa mereka bersalah atas tuduhan pembunuhan, penganiayaan, dan perusakan di tiga desa di Poso, yakni Desa Sintuwu Lemba, Kayamaya, dan Maengko Baru.
Kasus vonis mati mereka menimbulkan banyak kontroversi sehingga menyebabkan rencana vonis mati mereka tertunda beberapa kali. Ketiganya dieksekusi mati pada dinihari 22 September (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/22_September) 2006 (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006) di Palu (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kota_Palu).
Source: http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasus_Tibo
Yes, you are right, they were sentenced in 2000 (see how fast the decision is, because they were so weak and had no supporters). Sorry in Indonesia.
The 2002 Bali bombings occurred on 12 October (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_12) 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002) in the tourist district of Kuta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuta) on the Indonesian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia) island of Bali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bali). The attack was the deadliest act of terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism) in the history of Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indonesia), killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.
The attack involved the detonation of three bombs: a backpack-mounted device carried by a suicide bomber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack); a large car bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb), both of which were detonated in or near popular nightclubs in Kuta; and a third much smaller device detonated outside the United States consulate in Denpasar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denpasar), causing only minor damage.
Various members of Jemaah Islamiyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jemaah_Islamiyah), a violent Islamist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist) group, were convicted in relation to the bombings, including three individuals who were sentenced to death. Abu Bakar Bashir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakar_Bashir), the alleged spiritual leader of Jemaah Islamiyah, was found guilty , and sentenced to two and a half years imprisonment.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings#cite_note-AGE-0) Riduan Isamuddin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riduan_Isamuddin), generally known as Hambali and the suspected former operational leader of Jemaah Islamiyah, is in U.S. custody in an undisclosed location, and has not been charged in relation to the bombing or any other crime.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings#cite_note-1)
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings
Yes, I was wrong. You are right, Ol' buddy! But considering how fast the decision of death penalty, while at the moment, the Bali Bombing still hasn't been executed, while the proofs are even stronger than those of Tibo and friends, one can't help but thinking that the treatment is somehow different.
Yes, you are right, they were sentenced in 2000 (see how fast the decision is, because they were so weak and had no supporters). Sorry in Indonesia.
Yes, I was wrong. You are right, Ol' buddy! But considering how fast the decision of death penalty, while at the moment, the Bali Bombing still hasn't been executed, while the proofs are even stronger than those of Tibo and friends, one can't help but thinking that the treatment is somehow different.
I won't say that you are wrong on your statement. The Kasus Tibo had a big repercussion here in Sulawesi. I am not a Catholic myself, but I attended a mass given for them the day after their execution. There was a very strange atmosphere and I have to say that I felt really sad for Indonesia at that time.:(
I was sad too at the time, even if I am not a Catholic. I felt like as if the justice had left Indonesia and would never return again.
One of the things that I was told by a few Indonesian friends is that there is indeed freedom of religion; as long as you choose to be either muslim, christian, buddhist, or whatever else might be "recognised". Being an atheist or agnostic for example just isn't an option.
So you're free to believe in any one of the previously approved religions.
I came to Indonesia and became a paper Protestant.
I will leave this country confused as to why my religion (or lack there of )played a factor in getting a local bank account. Especially since my monthly wage is more than the average local can make in two years.
I came to Indonesia and became a paper Protestant.
I will leave this country confused as to why my religion (or lack there of )played a factor in getting a local bank account. Especially since my monthly wage is more than the average local can make in two years.
What do you mean? Do you mean that you did not get a bank account because you were a protestant?:confused:
radit_bezit
03-10-08, 11:33
I won't say that you are wrong on your statement. The Kasus Tibo had a big repercussion here in Sulawesi. I am not a Catholic myself, but I attended a mass given for them the day after their execution. There was a very strange atmosphere and I have to say that I felt really sad for Indonesia at that time.:(
Yes ... it is confused me ... on how they are being executed that fast ... cz a lot of residivis which being stated to death still waiting their death time years after the trial ... cz a lot of ways to release them from the death penalty ...
there is still banding1 and banding2 ---> until mahkamah agung ... pleading to take a freedom from death penalty from the president and vice president ... and the process sometimes needs a couple years until the final penalty stated ...
and i never heard someone being rejected to be a member of the bank because they are protestant ... i mean a lot of bank holder is chinest and a lot of them is non muslim ... maybe you should to explain more about the discrimination that you face lostatsea ...:confused:
Freedom Of Religion In Indonesia ???????
http://i38.tinypic.com/etvg91.jpg
i know the story of this one, they have been struggling to get a permit to build the church for 10 years or so, just got the permit out this year and still have to face the surrounding muslim communities that oppose it :(, the building is still in progress tho, hope it all works out peacefully :)
What do you mean? Do you mean that you did not get a bank account because you were a protestant?:confused:
Nope, I was given a bank account, but religion was on the application for the bank account. I have no religion and none wasn't an option so I have become a Protestant on paper.
This first came up when I registered with the police. They gave me two options, Protestant or Catholic. They couldn't grasp what I was on about when I said "no religion" so I went with the Protestant option.
Complete rubbish.
Whatever.
Nope, I was given a bank account, but religion was on the application for the bank account. I have no religion and none wasn't an option so I have become a Protestant on paper.
This first came up when I registered with the police. They gave me two options, Protestant or Catholic. They couldn't grasp what I was on about when I said "no religion" so I went with the Protestant option.
Oh... OK I see. But you know, it is the same for any administrative stuff in Indonesia. Agnosticism or atheism are not recognised. One of the foundation of Indonesia is the belief of one and only one god. This is in the constitution. Thus you "can't" have no religion. It is not a legal option.
This morning I had to declare my daughter being a protestant. She was only born an hour ago that I was already questionned on her religion!?
Oh... OK I see. But you know, it is the same for any administrative stuff in Indonesia. Agnosticism or atheism are not recognised. One of the foundation of Indonesia is the belief of one and only one god. This is in the constitution. Thus you "can't" have no religion. It is not a legal option.
This morning I had to declare my daughter being a protestant. She was only born an hour ago that I was already questionned on her religion!?
You just had a daughter born? Congratulations. Now what are you doing online????? Go take pictures or whatever it is you parents do.
You just had a daughter born? Congratulations. Now what are you doing online????? Go take pictures or whatever it is you parents do.
Thanks.
Erm... It is 10 P.M you know, now. RS is closed and the baby is sleeping.
Her and me it is a life story. We both have time.
And unfortunately I have to upload and send a bunch of stuff from my computer. I have to work sometimes... even if I have a newborn daughter :D
Ishtar^Summer
08-10-08, 12:27
About expanding religion --> do you know that there is an orphanage using this system to expand christian religion in Lembang Bandung? And even they will give money as long as they change religion to Christian .... so I think it is even. And yes it is works, my childhood friend change his religion so he can get the money.
About about "don't said merry chrismast" hmmm ... i will explain more about it ...
In Islam there is only one god --> Allah SWT. If you believe that there is another god beside ALLAH SWT so he/she is musrik. And musrik is one of the highest sin in Islam and it is an unforgiven sin. So, for some people and MUI saying "Marry christmast" indicated that he/she believe that there is another God beside ALLAH and it is sin. SO it is not because we are not tolerate to you. It is how we are worship our god in our religion. But there are ppls not behaviour like that. It is different for every single person to think whether it is including accepting another god beside ALLAH or not.
CMIIW
Do You Know Exactly What Is TRINITY Missy ????
U Knew It From Ur Uztad Didnt You ????
Ahhh....
Figures.....
U'll Be Angry Also Dont U If One Says
There's Certain Religion WHo Has Pedophile Prophet
WHo Married To 9 Years Old Girl
Geez
This Girl Even Hadnt Her Mentruation Yet.....
And By The Way...
Is There Any Chance U Could Take Me To That Lembang Orphanage ?
Or U Just Wrote That Down Just To Make Ur Religion Looks Better ?
come now, peace everyone :) .. you know, if we can all just think highly one to another, god will descend and have a drink with us :D, we're gonna have the party of our lifetime :rolleyes:
I took a look at the pool. It looks like everybody agree to say that freedom of religion, other than the dominant one, in Indonesia is a problem.:rolleyes:
Militant cleric gets 18 months behind bars for violence
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Thu, 10/30/2008 12:20 PM | Jakarta
Central Jakarta District Court has sentenced Islam Defenders Front (FPI) leader Rizieq Shihab to 1.5 years in prison for inciting hatred and instigating violence against participants of a peace rally at the National Monument (Monas) complex in June.
"The defendant is declared legally and convincingly guilty for transgressing the law. He is therefore sentenced to one year and six months' imprisonment," Presiding Judge Panusunan Harapan told the court on Thursday.
According to the magistrate, Rizieq was proven guilty of "generating animosity and mobilizing others to commit violent acts against people and people's property in public".
Rizieq was previously accused of enticing FPI members to conduct a violent ambush of a rally led by the National Alliance for the Freedom of Faith and Religion (AKKBB) at Monas on June 1.
The Court based its decision on evidence from a DVD that clearly displayed group members wearing FPI attributes as sole attackers in a brawl that left around 70 activists injured. "There is no sign of AKKBB members provoking the attack," Harapan said. (amr)
Black Adder
31-10-08, 00:01
I took a look at the pool. It looks like everybody agree to say that freedom of religion, other than the dominant one, in Indonesia is a problem.:rolleyes:
It sure is full and religion seems to be the last thing on their minds........
http://www.plasticbamboo.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/pool-people.jpg
hahahahhahahahahhaa...I thought that was a pool-full off colourful anacondas..
I bet Baldrick is still at your beck and call getting the most appropriate photos from your library :)
I first took a quick look at the pic and thought it was a mass prayer or something like that. Then I took a second look...:)
It looks like there is a bit of place left on the right bottom corner, but it is a good lesson of space management.
Exactly! True freedom of religion is also freedom from religion... What they practice here is the freedom to choose from five predefinded religions. Also something to note is when couples of different religions get married one of them has to convert to the others religion. Because by Indonesian law only couples from the same religion can get married. The only way around this law is to get married outside of the country.
If one partner is WNI and the couple are of different faiths, even though married abroad, coming back to live in Indonesia, do you not have to register or endorse this marriage by the local authority? Thus, if one is a muslim (as is the religion: must be both muslims), the partner who is not, must convert?
If one partner is WNI and the couple are of different faiths, even though married abroad, coming back to live in Indonesia, do you not have to register or endorse this marriage by the local authority? Thus, if one is a muslim (as is the religion: must be both muslims), the partner who is not, must convert?
They won't be forced to. legally you report your wedding which took place abroad. You don't marry again, which means that Indonesian marriage law does not directly apply to you. You just legalise administratively an abroad marriage. It is the difference. You won't receive a marriage certificate but just an administrative recognition of your marriage.
As a muslim myself and spent my whole school years in both Protestant/Catholic schools in Jakarta, (the reason simply it was 5 minutes walk from our house) and I had never ever experienced any clash or descriminations. The best country for Tolerancy to others. Since I now live abroad for nearly 25 years, and I have to admit since 1998 when it all started, churches being burnt, war in Ambon, etc, etc, it's really sad, as we know the first idealogy Pancasila: Belief in God!!!
On the other hand; I can not agree more of what Radit Bezit said, unfortunately it happens everywhere, as Islam is the majority religion in Indonesia therefore they most likely to run the government. I just wish the Indonesian Government take more tough actions against individuals or groups which aiming to create a civil war.
puterapanas
24-02-09, 11:41
They won't be forced to. legally you report your wedding which took place abroad. You don't marry again, which means that Indonesian marriage law does not directly apply to you. .....just an administrative recognition of your marriage.
Unfortunately this is not true for Malaysia....
Exactly! True freedom of religion is also freedom from religion...
The only way around this law is to get married outside of the country.
I believe Bali has quite a thriving industry in marriages between mixed couples of differing faith..shhhhhhhhhh, keep it quiet :}
When I live in a suburb, I see the harmony of the people, they can live side by side peacefully no matter what religions each individual may believe in. Unfortunately, religions and other sensitive "names" like tribes, minorities, etc are often used as tools to "lit a fire" by a group of people for their own benefits.
The poor, the innocent, the weak will be the victim of any issues arise. religious tolerance, for me, rather than religious freedom will work naturally as long as the authorities are committed to the enforced laws without taking sides.
religious tolerance, for me, rather than religious freedom will work naturally as long as the authorities are committed to the enforced laws without taking sides.
I agree with you but it is not enough in my opinion. For it to really works, it also requires for the dominant group to be fully aware that being dominant does not mean that you can impose your rule or even just ignore the minorities and let their rights not being respected. Indonesia has been founded on the ground of the Pancasila, which is the basis of its Constitution, and the respect of its diversity in ethnicity and religion. The respect of the 5 principles (which is the meaning of Pancasila by the way) is what unified Indonesia and convinced some provinces to join the new nation. Without it, Indonesia would not be a unified country today and many provinces wouldn't be part of it.
In contrast to Muslim nationalists who insisted on an Islamic identity for the new state, the framers of the Pancasila decided to give a culturally neutral identity, compatible with a democratic ideology, compromising with the huge cultural differences that exists in its heterogeneous population. If the dominant group decide that it can ignore or abandon one of the principle of Pancasila, it will only jeopardize the unity and diversity of the nation. I am always surprised to hear some indonesians, muslims and not radicals, saying "Indonesia is a muslim country"... This is plain wrong and it is a sure sign that some are forgeting one of the principle that brought proivinces such as Bali, Northern Sulawesi, Papua and part of NTT or even some of the bataks to join Indonesia as a new nation some 63 years ago. The government should for sure enforce the law, but the moderate part of the dominant group should also be fully aware of the consequences in the actions of its more extrem part.
Ikut aksi sejuta umat bubarkan Ahmadiya, reads the banner hanging near the Mosque on my street. I suspect that for many of the so-called "tolerant" Muslims, tolerance only applies to other people's religion. Never mind, of course, the country's constitution which, for many "tolerant" Muslims, is trumped by their narrow, personal religious beliefs. Perhaps freedom of religion is best safeguarded in real practice not through a multi-confessional state as enshrined in the Pancasila, but rather through a secular state.
Is this, once again, the "culture" that I am expected to respect and embrace?
If that smells so strong why don't you just get out of the country...., there are IRA, UDF in Ireland and ETA in Spain..... i'm not sure whether they have the same smell what you smell in Indonesia???
That's crazy. All of the terrorists should be condemned to death or at least life sentence without parole.:mad:
This only shows that the political bargaining power of the islam extremists is high now in Indonesia.
I really feel bad hearing this.:mad:
Also remember that the "Christian Terrorists" like Tibo, cs, while in fact many evidences showed conflicting conclusions, were executed right away.
I smell something here and the smell is VERY strong.http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/images/icons/icon4.gif
If that smells so strong why don't you just get out of the country...., there are IRA, UDF in Ireland and ETA in Spain..... i'm not sure whether they have the same smell what you smell in Indonesia???
Have you ever heard about freedom of speech Delon?
By the way JohnJohn is one of your fellow, Indonesian by birth if I am not wrong. I would be interested to hear from you WHY he should then have less right than you to comment on political decisions, or less right than you to live in Indonesia?
I agree with you but it is not enough in my opinion. For it to really works, it also requires for the dominant group to be fully aware that being dominant does not mean that you can impose your rule or even just ignore the minorities and let their rights not being respected. Indonesia has been founded on the ground of the Pancasila, which is the basis of its Constitution, and the respect of its diversity in ethnicity and religion. The respect of the 5 principles (which is the meaning of Pancasila by the way) is what unified Indonesia and convinced some provinces to join the new nation. Without it, Indonesia would not be a unified country today and many provinces wouldn't be part of it.
In contrast to Muslim nationalists who insisted on an Islamic identity for the new state, the framers of the Pancasila decided to give a culturally neutral identity, compatible with a democratic ideology, compromising with the huge cultural differences that exists in its heterogeneous population. If the dominant group decide that it can ignore or abandon one of the principle of Pancasila, it will only jeopardize the unity and diversity of the nation. I am always surprised to hear some indonesians, muslims and not radicals, saying "Indonesia is a muslim country"... This is plain wrong and it is a sure sign that some are forgeting one of the principle that brought proivinces such as Bali, Northern Sulawesi, Papua and part of NTT or even some of the bataks to join Indonesia as a new nation some 63 years ago. The government should for sure enforce the law, but the moderate part of the dominant group should also be fully aware of the consequences in the actions of its more extrem part.
I really understand your way of thinking, if I may say in short, religions and other things related to SARA are complicated and sensitive matters and at the same time it is often "used" as a political vehicle for their complexity and sebsitivity. Unfortunaltely, many of those who embrace religions do not understand exactly the pure teaching of their own religions, but dare to interfere others, blaming, judging and even punishing others.
I'm afraid, It'll be an everlasting problem as it has been part of an agenda and a project of a group of people.
Who they are? the untouchable
Ikut aksi sejuta umat bubarkan Ahmadiya, reads the banner hanging near the Mosque on my street. I suspect that for many of the so-called "tolerant" Muslims, tolerance only applies to other people's religion. Never mind, of course, the country's constitution which, for many "tolerant" Muslims, is trumped by their narrow, personal religious beliefs. Perhaps freedom of religion is best safeguarded in real practice not through a multi-confessional state as enshrined in the Pancasila, but rather through a secular state.
Is this, once again, the "culture" that I am expected to respect and embrace?
Mite, we agree again ;}
Of course, that's why i expressed my opinion the same as what JohnJohn did, he has no less right to comment on anything or less right to live in Indonesia. Unfortunately terrorists are everywhere (world-wide). If you don't feel comfortable with what you see (growing terrorism), you can easily move to another part of the country, Indonesia is a vast country. Maaf JohnJohn mungkin balasan opini saya a bit harsh. As for you Atlantis; congratulations for the arrival of your baby girl :)
Have you ever heard about freedom of speech Delon?
By the way JohnJohn is one of your fellow, Indonesian by birth if I am not wrong. I would be interested to hear from you WHY he should then have less right than you to comment on political decisions, or less right than you to live in Indonesia?
Of course, that's why i expressed my opinion the same as what JohnJohn did, he has no less right to comment on anything or less right to live in Indonesia. Unfortunately terrorists are everywhere (world-wide). If you don't feel comfortable with what you see (growing terrorism), you can easily move to another part of the country, Indonesia is a vast country. Maaf JohnJohn mungkin balasan opini saya a bit harsh. As for you Atlantis; congratulations for the arrival of your baby girl :)
Hi Delon, I have the same right as you are to live in Indonesia. I have the same right for you to expect for a better Indonesia. As much as you have a right for your opinion, so am I. Telling me to leave Indonesia, in my opinion, only shows your arrogance that you think you are more entitled to live in Indonesia than I or other people who are also disturbed by terrorism.
I hope you are not blinded by your religious belief that you fail to see "inside" with a critical point of view. I have some muslim friends who acknowledge that:
1. It's true Indonesian muslims are less tolerant. For example in the fasting period and the loud 5 time prayers. I hope this statement will never meet your "then move away". Don't you know that our UUD grants the individual right as well? It says that "every citizen has the same right in front of the law and has the right and obligation to adhere to the law".
2. Talking about terrorism, so far, as long as I know, only muslim terrorists kill while believing that they KILL for GOD, even utter religious chants. There are several possibilities:
- They are not very well educated in their own religion.
- Some verses in Quran can be multi-interpreted, thus it needs straightening.
3. I said about the "strong smell of Islamization" because of the raise of:
- FPI
- AGAP
- TPM, etc
You yourself can see their actions in real life. also there are many muslim organizations promoting the application of sharia law (or fiqh) and the change of Indonesia into "Khilafah" system.
Actually, I myself see it as a betrayal to the "youth oath" (soempah pemoeda), of which the youths agree that they are Indonesians.
So one question to you, Delon, are you a "muslim living in Indonesia" thus you must refer to the culture of the arabs OR are you an Indonesian who happens to be a muslim?
Only you can answer yourself. It needs honesty.
Ikut aksi sejuta umat bubarkan Ahmadiya, reads the banner hanging near the Mosque on my street. I suspect that for many of the so-called "tolerant" Muslims, tolerance only applies to other people's religion. Never mind, of course, the country's constitution which, for many "tolerant" Muslims, is trumped by their narrow, personal religious beliefs. Perhaps freedom of religion is best safeguarded in real practice not through a multi-confessional state as enshrined in the Pancasila, but rather through a secular state.
Is this, once again, the "culture" that I am expected to respect and embrace?
That's not quite the same thing. Ahmadiya are seen as a corruption of Islam in that they claim some woman is a new prophet thus breaking one of the main things that Islam is based upon.
If they just started a new religion without the claim to be Muslim they would probably be ignored.
A Muslim states that Allah is the only true god and that Mohammad is the final messenger of Allah (Seriously paraphrased) . To claim to be a new messenger strikes right into the heart of Islam. That's why they are disliked so much. Not quite the same thing.
As for the rest of it, I can only comment on what I have seen locally.
People here really don't care about your religion. They like it if you are a Muslim but don't seem to bother much if you are not. There is freedom to be as you like and do as you like in your religious life.
The religions mix with no detectable strain between them.
I have been to a Christmas party with the local cops and Muslim events with the same people. Things are happy.
Seems free and straight in this neck of the woods I'm happy to report. :)
I am well aware about how Muslims see Ahmadiya, but their views are, in legal and constitutional terms, neither here nor there, for the 1945 Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. The debate is one of Constitutional law, rather than about theology.
The 1945 Constitution does not say that freedom of religion is guaranteed so long as Muslims (or any other group, for that matter) do not object. On a more mundane level, it is indeed a quite dangerous slippery slope when one group of Muslims starts claiming that others are not Muslims.
You can dress it in all types of justifications and rationalizations, nevertheless one fundamental fact remains: Ahmadiya is prevented from worshipping freely according to their conscience, in violation of the 1945 Constitution. Period.
I am well aware about how Muslims see Ahmadiya, but their views are, in legal and constitutional terms, neither here nor there, for the 1945 Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. The debate is one of Constitutional law, rather than about theology.
.
maybe but it's not an issue in this area so I can't offer considered comment about what freedoms they do and don't have.
I have yet to meet any of them or Muslims that have mentioned them.
It's also true that I'm far from expert in Indonesian law so i can't give serious comment on that either.
Sorry I can't offer comment other than on what I have seen and know to be true.
Perhaps I can offer one comment or opinion.
I don't believe what the sect are doing is much of an idea.
The first reason is that this woman is claiming a direct link to Allah. If you take the bible or Al qur'an literally that puts her in a minority of a very few.
Doing this will upset many and cause a few to get violent.
If she wants a new religion, up to her, start one but don't claim to be Muslim. That's daft.
If you think religion is a pile of cods that makes her a loony.
It always strikes me that if someone claims they have God's/Allah's mobile number they tend to be TV evangelists after your cash or nutters of one sort or another. (See bali bombers and allah told me to do it - what cretins)
Maybe she's just seen the TV twisters and come up with a scam.
The Ahmadiyyah issue aside, I suggest that many of the cases of communal religious intolerance that we see from the Muslim majority are in reality cases of ethnic/racial intolerance. I see a parallel in the use of Muslim identity in Malay nationalism in Malaysia.
The newspapers reported today an arson attempt on an Ahmadiya mosque yesterday.
The newspapers reported today an arson attempt on an Ahmadiya mosque yesterday.
http://thejakartaglobe.com/city/arson-hits-mosque-of-deviant-ahmadiyah/278908
thanks for the link to the news clip
Me, I really enjoyed the coments of Makmur the sub-district chief of the Police:
1. “Police are now questioning five Ahmadiyah followers as witnesses,”
It sounds a bit like they are gonna jail them... :D
2. “We guarded the mosque until 10 p.m. on Monday. Who would have thought that the two men could come back in the morning,”
Was he expecting that the arsonists set on fire the mosque while it was guarded?
thanks for the link to the news clip
You're welcome
Pity that you have edited your post....:cool:;)
I'd say a few words deploring this latest attack on Ahmadiya's right to worship, but I'd be misconstrued as a bigot for that too.
I'd say a few words deploring this latest attack on Ahmadiya's right to worship, but I'd be misconstrued as a bigot for that too.
Saying all Muslims blah, blah, blah would constitute a bigoted post.
Saying you condemn the people who carried out this attack is not.
You know I'm Muslim but I would not physically attack these people or their places of worship.
I don't condone attacks but I can understand why they happen.
I'd say a few words deploring this latest attack on Ahmadiya's right to worship, but I'd be misconstrued as a bigot for that too.
Not neccesarily mite, your comments are appreciated, generally.:D
I'm unhappy that you now appear to be editing your comments, :(...better to be who you are and stand up for what you believe... so stop editing but just show a little more patience towards those of us not quite as good as you in thinking/analysing and articulating your thoughts.
:)
littleiyut
05-06-09, 11:48
Not neccesarily mite, your comments are appreciated, generally.:D
I'm unhappy that you now appear to be editing your comments, :(...better to be who you are and stand up for what you believe... so stop editing but just show a little more patience towards those of us not quite as good as you in thinking/analysing and articulating your thoughts.
:)
Yeah, I feel a bit sad too because it is interesting to read what other people opinions on something because sometimes we didn't allow ourselves to see things from different angle. Just a little bit more lemah lembut it would be more appreciated.:)
The Globe reports today that a community in East Java near Surabaya turned against the local mosque that was being used to spread intolerance and radicalism by preaching that government officials, people involved in the elections and people who celebrate the Prophet's birthday were all infidels. The mosque had also invited Abu Bakar Bashir to speak.
The Globe reports today that a community in East Java near Surabaya turned against the local mosque that was being used to spread intolerance and radicalism by preaching that government officials, people involved in the elections and people who celebrate the Prophet's birthday were all infidels. The mosque had also invited Abu Bakar Bashir to speak.
http://thejakartaglobe.com/home/a-rare-backlash-against-radicals-at-east-java-mosque/314074
Surabaya. In a rarely seen community backlash against Muslim radicals, residents in a Surabaya neighborhood took a somewhat vigilante tack, physically barring the doors of a mosque they felt had been a hotbed of hard-line Islamist teachings.
That sort of makes my point that most people are generally tolerant of others.
littleiyut
24-06-09, 11:56
Hore!!!! Thanks M, very rare read The Globe. That man shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a mosque ever again, but then some do gooders will say no one can do that because it is his right to have such freedom bla...bla....bla...
The danger here, however, is that your "faith" and your interpretation of scripture may--and in fact, does, as this incident makes plainly clear--lead down to very different paths. And once you are skating on the thin ice of the subjectivities, who is to say objectively who is right and who is wrong? Those hard-liners are equally convinced and confident that they are right as you are that they are wrong. The religious folk have made their bed; now they must lie in it.
The danger here, however, is that your "faith" and your interpretation of scripture may--and in fact, does, as this incident makes plainly clear--lead down to very different paths. And once you are skating on the thin ice of the subjectivities, who is to say objectively who is right and who is wrong? Those hard-liners are equally convinced and confident that they are right as you are that they are wrong. The religious folk have made their bed; now they must lie in it.
Your post is right to a level but wrong on so much.
It's true that some take scriptures to an extreme as some do with politics.
Unless the likes of that idiot Adolf Griffin in the UK is suggestive that all Brits want to send all non-whites 'home'.
Of course not, just a minority of fools. Same goes here. Most people who have faith are fine and have no problem with others. A few are daft and believe hate is the way forward.
What you need to do is open your mind instead of assuming that all who believe in something have the same traits of hate but some more deeply hidden than others as you seem to.
Assuming that all are the same because of race, creed or colour is a far more dangerous thing that a few on the cretinous end of religion.
...What you need to do is open your mind instead of assuming that all who believe in something have the same traits of hate but some more deeply hidden than others as you seem to...
Nothing of what I wrote in the previous post could be used to support your claim. In fact, I stated that "faith" can lead you down two very different paths: one of tolerance and peace, one of hatred and violence. The point here is that if you accept "faith" as the guiding principle, then you must be prepared to accept both paths (and everything in between).
Nothing of what I wrote in the previous post could be used to support your claim.
. The religious folk have made their bed; now they must lie in it.
Maybe that could be taken as being a bit anti. :)
I am well aware about how Muslims see Ahmadiya, but their views are, in legal and constitutional terms, neither here nor there, for the 1945 Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. The debate is one of Constitutional law, rather than about theology.
The 1945 Constitution does not say that freedom of religion is guaranteed so long as Muslims (or any other group, for that matter) do not object. On a more mundane level, it is indeed a quite dangerous slippery slope when one group of Muslims starts claiming that others are not Muslims.
You can dress it in all types of justifications and rationalizations, nevertheless one fundamental fact remains: Ahmadiya is prevented from worshipping freely according to their conscience, in violation of the 1945 Constitution. Period.
The Ahmadiyah issue is old issue. The MUI (Indonesian Ulema Majlis) has stated in 90s that Ahmadiyah belief is deviating from Islam main stream belief that's why MUI's fatwa/recommendation that Ahmadiyah is not true Islam, they lost the point of Islam. But MUI doesn't permit any violence to Ahmadiyah followers and their assets. Actually it's a simple and clear thing. As an organization, Ahmadiyah is guaranteed by UUD 45 constitution. If they claim that Ahmadiyah is a new religion then the problem will end, no one will disturb them . But if they claim that they are Moslem but they still deviate from the Islam main stream belief then the problem will be endless.
waarmstrong
03-08-09, 16:20
The Ahmadiyah issue is old issue. The MUI (Indonesian Ulema Majlis) has stated in 90s that Ahmadiyah belief is deviating from Islam main stream belief that's why MUI's fatwa/recommendation that Ahmadiyah is not true Islam, they lost the point of Islam. But MUI doesn't permit any violence to Ahmadiyah followers and their assets. Actually it's a simple and clear thing. As an organization, Ahmadiyah is guaranteed by UUD 45 constitution. If they claim that Ahmadiyah is a new religion then the problem will end, no one will disturb them . But if they claim that they are Moslem but they still deviate from the Islam main stream belief then the problem will be endless.
Religious Freedom is an older issue. Numbers are not a measure of the validity of religious beliefs. Ahmadiyah have as much claim to the Muslim mantle as MUI, as well as the right to label what some call main-stream as deviant.
The US Constitution, similar to the Indonesian Constitution, protects religious freedom. Over 60 years ago in United States v. Balland, the US Supreme Court said it best. Quoting Chief Justice Douglas, "Men may believe what they cannot prove. They may not be put to the proof of their religious doctrines or beliefs. Religious experiences which are as real as life to some may be incomprehensible to others.... If one could be sent to jail because a jury in a hostile environment found those teachings false, little indeed would be left of religious freedom. The Fathers of the Constitution were not unaware of the varied and extreme views of religious sects, of the violence of disagreement among them, and of the lack of any one religious creed on which all men would agree. They fashioned a charter of government which envisaged the widest possible toleration of conflicting views. Man's relation to his God was made no concern of the state. He was granted the right to worship as he pleased and to answer to no man for the verity of his religious views."
If Indonesia truly supports religious freedom, then Ahmadiyah can not be made to answer to anyone for viewing themselves as the true Muslims.
Hombre de Maiz
06-08-09, 13:29
Lest it be forgotten Ahmadiyah cannot simply renounce Islam, form a new religion and hope to practice undisturbed for Pancasila proscribes Indonesians from worshipping any other religion other than the official five. Ahmadiyah is caught between the rock of an unflexible and manichean orthodoxy (religion) and the hard place of the Indonesian state (nationalism). Is this how you would wish your own religion to be treated? What comes around goes around...
If Indonesia truly supports religious freedom, then Ahmadiyah can not be made to answer to anyone for viewing themselves as the true Muslims.
My interpretation is that Indonesia through its UUD 45 constitution allows for any person to choose and practice officially state recognized religions (Islam, Christian, Hindu, Budha, Konghucu). Konghucu is new religion recognized officially by President Abdurrahman Wahid (2000-2002). MUI recommendation is to persuade any moslem to follow and obey the Islam doctrine and rules completely, not partially like what Ahmadiyah does. I think inside a religion (for any religion) is not completely free, there must be main principles and rules should be followed, but people acoording to UUD 45 contitution is free to choose and practice officially and recognized religions.
Is this how you would wish your own religion to be treated? What comes around goes around...
In Indonesia there is a religion tolerance, respect to others as it's expected by the nation.
My interpretation is that Indonesia through its UUD 45 constitution allows for any person to choose and practice officially state recognized religions (Islam, Christian, Hindu, Budha, Konghucu). Konghucu is new religion recognized officially by President Abdurrahman Wahid (2000-2002). MUI recommendation is to persuade any moslem to follow and obey the Islam doctrine and rules completely, not partially like what Ahmadiyah does. I think inside a religion (for any religion) is not completely free, there must be main principles and rules should be followed, but people acoording to UUD 45 contitution is free to choose and practice officially and recognized religions.
So "freedom" here means free to choose from the menu? :whistle:
I want mine half-done, is that on the menu? :lol: Oh it is not? And you want to do what because I want something not on the menu?
Hombre de Maiz
06-08-09, 18:28
The Jakarta Globe reports today--with the article heading Religious Bigotry--that the Ahmadis interned in the Transito camp in Lombok are in dire condition due to their defacto four-year incarceration. All they ask if that they be allowed to leave the camp so that they have the opportunity to scavenge, beg or work. Could the Ahmadis not be forgiven for not wanting to rejoin the fold given that their Muslim brethen have treated them so inhumanely and wickedly? Is this how the Prophet would have acted? Is this the religious tolerance of which you speak, Bapak Santoso?
The Jakarta Globe reports today--with the article heading Religious Bigotry--that the Ahmadis interned in the Transito camp in Lombok are in dire condition due to their defacto four-year incarceration. All they ask if that they be allowed to leave the camp so that they have the opportunity to scavenge, beg or work. Could the Ahmadis not be forgiven for not wanting to rejoin the fold given that their Muslim brethen have treated them so inhumanely and wickedly? Is this how the Prophet would have acted? Is this the religious tolerance of which you speak, Bapak Santoso?
As I mentioned before, MUI doenn't permit any violence to Ahmadis and their assets. Even in the UUD 45 constitution states clearly that the country (say Government) will protect all Indonesian people including Ahmadis in Lombok. What MUI recommend is to persuade them (instead of to treat) to be back to the Islam main principles. What happened in Lombok doen'st in line with MUI recommendation. With no doubt all Prophets advise for peaceful.
I'm trying to work out how they can say they are Muslims.
A Muslim states that Mohammad (SAW) is the last prophet but these guys believe there is another.
It's the same as saying your a Christian but you don't believe in Christ while wanting the pope to accept you as Catholics and moaning when he tells you to sod off.
I suspect the new Prophet may be more about profit but that's only a guess.
That has the potential to bug many Muslims from the slightly amused and maybe a tad not amused to the bang bang brigade with semtex. Whatever way round, it's a crap idea to do something that daft.
Just to put it in a way you may be able to understand.
OK, so lets assume that the Ahmadis are deviant and have strayed from the true path of Islam.
Surely that is their business, and not that of MUI or the 'Muslim' thugs who attacked them on so many occasions. If you think they are wrong then by all means say that they are wrong and tell the world that you are right. Warn your children never to join them. Make a point of never giving a penny to their charities. But let the Almighty decide in the end.
I personally believe that the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) have got it wrong on a number of issues. For that reason, I do not join their congregations and would never consider converting to their faith. That doesn't mean that I have to throw rocks at them and drive them out of town, however. They have a constitutional right to be wrong (at least, wrong in my opinion), and I have a right to my own opinion.
So why can't so-called mainstream Muslims concentrate on putting their own house in order and leave the Ahmadis to their eternal damnation? Are Muslims so insecure in their own faith that they believe their children would flock in droves to the Ahmadiyya if the latter weren't utterly destroyed? I don't see much evidence for that.
Are Muslims so insecure in their own faith that they believe their children would flock in droves to the Ahmadiyya if the latter weren't utterly destroyed?Question: Are Muslims so insecure in their own faith that they won't allow non-Muslim private prayer services (in your own house) in Saudi Arabia?
Question: Are Muslims so insecure in their own faith that they won't allow prayer books for other religions in Saudi Arabia?
Question: Are Muslims so insecure in their own faith that they have to close restos and bars or drape their windows shut during the fasting month?
Question: Are Muslims so insecure in their own faith that they have to blow up people in order to get new believers?
Fact: If you're selling something so good people will beat a path to your door to get some. If your product is all that good, you wouldn't have to use murder and mayhem to make them buy your gear.
Hombre de Maiz
07-08-09, 16:28
Refer to post No. 134 below.
Hombre de Maiz
07-08-09, 16:30
...
Just to put it in a way you may be able to understand.
As has been pointed out earlier, this issue (let me spell it out for you: that Ahmadis--regardless of what they themselves may or may not consider themselves, regardless of what others may or may not consider them--are entitled to freedom of religion, expression and association) is not a theological one, but rather a civil and legal one. Yes, they may--or may not be--"daft", but that has no bearing on whether they are entitled to enjoy the rights guaranteed under the 1945 UUD. Said another way, their rights, my rights, your rights are not subject to the consent of others. I, they, you do not have veto on others´rights. I don´t know whether to interpret your red-herrings as an indication that you are not able to follow the argument or as an indication that you are avoiding the argument.
Hombre de Maiz
07-08-09, 17:38
... What happened in Lombok doen'st in line with MUI recommendation. With no doubt all Prophets advise for peaceful.
That´s right. At the end of the day, what matters more is not what religious scholars think and the edicts that they issue, for after all the ulama are nothing more than than, religious scholars. What is of the essence, here and elsewhere, is how Muslims choose for themselves, in real every-day life and in real practice, how to interpret and practice their faith, how to deal with the other when the other is unlike themselves. No MUI edict, however many and forceful, will ever replace or compensate for individual and collective (real, not token) tolerance.
As has been pointed out earlier, this issue (let me spell it out for you: that Ahmadis--regardless of what they themselves may or may not consider themselves, regardless of what others may or may not consider them--are entitled to freedom of religion, expression and association) is not a theological one, but rather a civil and legal one. Yes, they may--or may not be--"daft", but that has no bearing on whether they are entitled to enjoy the rights guaranteed under the 1945 UUD. Said another way, their rights, my rights, your rights are not subject to the consent of others. I, they, you do not have veto on others´rights. I don´t know whether to interpret your red-herrings as an indication that you are not able to follow the argument or as an indication that you are avoiding the argument.
Did I say otherwise? I just said they were daft to do as they do while still calling themselves Muslims and the motives of some are questionable.
As has been pointed out earlier, this issue (let me spell it out for you: that Ahmadis--regardless of what they themselves may or may not consider themselves, regardless of what others may or may not consider them--are entitled to freedom of religion, expression and association) is not a theological one, but rather a civil and legal one. Yes, they may--or may not be--"daft", but that has no bearing on whether they are entitled to enjoy the rights guaranteed under the 1945 UUD. Said another way, their rights, my rights, your rights are not subject to the consent of others. I, they, you do not have veto on others´rights. I don´t know whether to interpret your red-herrings as an indication that you are not able to follow the argument or as an indication that you are avoiding the argument.
The issue is concerned with Ahmadiyah and Islam main principle differences, instead of a theological one.
NO
ISLAM
AHMADIYAH (Qadian)
1
Muhammad is the last Prophet (according to holy Qur’an)
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the Prophet after Muhammad
2
Qur’an is Moslem life guidance
Tadzkirah is Ahmadis life guidance
Ahmadiyah Qadian is prohibited in Pakistan by Govenment, on the other hand Ahmadiyah Lahore which recognizing Mirza Ghulam Ahmad not as a prophet can live peacefuly in Pakistan. Both Ahmadiyah streams are born in Pakistan.
b_santoso, you are missing the point of this discussion. The issue being discussed is "who has the right to limit ANYONE'S belief - or lack of belief - in a religion"?
The question we need to answer is “does each human born have the freedom to choose his or her own religion”? If you answered “yes”, then the discussion is over. If you answered "yes" then it follows that people - including those in governments and especially those in other religions - who limit others’ freedom to choose their religion are going against the will of the Universe.
If you answered “NO” to the initial question, then I would ask you this: “are you so smart that you can tell me what to believe about the origins and the future of the Universe”? Answer that question now.
If you said you ARE smart enough, then you are a megalomaniac because no human knows the origin and future of humankind, apa lagi the universe.
If you answered truthfully that you are NOT smart enough to limit others’ choices, then who is? I'll guarantee you the answer is not ANY government or any single religious group. The safest bet then is to just leave each adult human's relationship with his/her Creator up to each individual.
I still say that if you have a new religion that is so good you will not have to force anyone to believe it. Instead, people will beat a path to your door to join your religion.
However, if you have to penalize people who believe differently than you - and even blow them up - then the barang you are selling is jelek.
Hombre de Maiz
08-08-09, 22:15
Yes, Bapak Santoso, I am well informed about the origin of and schisms within Ahmadiyah. I am also aware of one crucial fact: Pakistan is an Islamic state whereas Indonesia is not. Bringing up Pakistan as an example actually undermines your argument. Legally and constitutionally you are comparing apples and oranges. Nevertheless, it is indicative of your frame of mind.
On a separate though related note, it is rather shameful that you and your correligionists, being the majority, are falling over youselves with justifications for limiting the rights of others. So, for one second leave your texts and MUI aside, talk to me like a human being, man to man, and tell me why your set of beliefs should be protected while those of Ahmadiyah restricted, why you should enjoy freedom of movement while the Ahmadis are defacto imprisoned, how on a humanitarian basis you can justify the treatment meted out to the Ahmadis...
Yes, Bapak Santoso, I am well informed about the origin of and schisms within Ahmadiyah. I am also aware of one crucial fact: Pakistan is an Islamic state whereas Indonesia is not. Bringing up Pakistan as an example actually undermines your argument. Legally and constitutionally you are comparing apples and oranges. Nevertheless, it is indicative of your frame of mind.
On a separate though related note, it is rather shameful that you and your correligionists, being the majority, are falling over youselves with justifications for limiting the rights of others. So, for one second leave your texts and MUI aside, talk to me like a human being, man to man, and tell me why your set of beliefs should be protected while those of Ahmadiyah restricted, why you should enjoy freedom of movement while the Ahmadis are defacto imprisoned, how on a humanitarian basis you can justify the treatment meted out to the Ahmadis...
Yes, In fact, Indonesia is the largest Moslem state instead of Islamic state like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc.. Concerning with Ahmadiyah issue, the Indonesian government (at Ministry level) has issued a decision letter which forbids Ahmadiyah Indonesia (Qadian) to publish any activities of Ahmadis, however the government will protech their human right (instead of imprison them) as Indonesian citizen as guaranteed by constitution. MUI (as representative of Moslems here and legally founded by the government) states that Ahmadiyah people (from their beliefs) are deviant due to they recognize as Moslem but they declare that there is another Prophet after Muhammad (i.e. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) and they have another holy book (Tazkirah, instead of Qur'an). That's my argument and most Moslem here. So perhaps I can't follow your argument, but I certainly respect other arguments, as this forum is just for opinion sharing. The other arguments force me to contemplate. :smile2: Thanks for the discussion.
Hombre de Maiz
10-08-09, 14:06
Yes, regrettably the inability to follow this argument is quite prevalent. Quite scary that folks like these are in charge of safeguarding the rights of others. Lest it escape you, the inability to follow this argument is not solely academic. It has real impact on the lives and livelihoods of people. But heck, as long as they are not proper, orthodox Muslims, who gives a damn, right? Your tolerance and compassion only extends to your correligionists, right?
Your position and the underlying militant, exacting orthodoxy does not cast a positive light on your religion. Sugarcoat it with MUI edicts, government surat-surat and legalistic theological arguments as much as you like. None of that hides the fact that yours is an unjust and unethical position.
Btw, Indonesia is also not a "Moslem state".
quote from Hombre...
"Btw, Indonesia is also not a "Moslem state"
It's amazing to me how many Indonesians don't know this fact and tiring to keep reminding them...
Indonesia is a pluralist Republic, and the national philosophy is Pancasila. Stringent laws exist to deal with anyone trying to undermine the Republic or its democratic process... but these don't seem to be enforced when it is Muslim organisations doing the undermining. Just try preaching revolutionary communism or regional separatism and see what happens to you. Then contrast that with what happens (or rather, doesn't happen) if you preach about replacing the Republic with a Muslim caliphate.
The Jakarta Globe
Muslim Leader Laments Ignorance of Those Who Are Intolerant of Christians
The head of Indonesia’s largest Muslim organization admitted on Friday that a report stating that Christians were the most frequent victims of religious freedom violations here was true.
Said Agil Siradj, who heads the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU), said that sometimes a minority of Muslims are intolerant towards other religions, particularly Christianity. Said said such intolerance by extremists was based on limited knowledge about Islam.
“They [the extremists] don’t have enough understanding about what Islam is all about,” Said said in response to a report issued on Thursday by the Wahid Institute, a non-governmental organization focused on promoting pluralism. The report said that of 35 cases of religious freedom violations lodged with police in 2009, 28 were against Christians.
Said added that Christians should help maintain religious tolerance by being more sensitive towards Muslims. “It is fine if the Christians want to build a church. It would, however, be best and wise if they discussed it first with the people living in the neighborhood, so there will be no misunderstanding,” he said.
The Wahid Institute is the brainchild of late former President Abdurrahman “Gus Dur” Wahid, who was a leader of the NU and the grandson of its founder, Hasyim Asy’ari.
“The report is true. Even though legally Christianity is a religion recognized and protected by the state, still so many violations and even attacks occur,” Rev. Gomar Gultom, executive secretary of the Indonesian Communion of Churches (PGI), said.
Gomar said the violations were sometimes quite obvious as when some groups oppose the building of churches, or even try to prevent Christians from conducting religious rituals in accordance with their beliefs.
“A church in Sibuhuan, South Tapanuli [in North Sumatra] was burnt down this afternoon,” Gomar said on Friday, adding that there had been incessant complaints about the existence of the church for a month.
Even though Christianity is “legal” in Indonesia, there were still many who treated believers of “traditional religions or sects” better than they would treat Christians, he said.
“People who believe in Kejawen in Java, or Sunda Karawitan, are treated better than Christians, even though legally they are not acknowledged by the state,” Gomar said.
“The government has no excuse for letting such tragedies happen,” he said.
Father Dani Sanusi from the Indonesian Bishops Conference said that church burning and attacks against Christians have resulted in deep trauma for many Indonesian Christians.
“A lot of Christians are deeply traumatized and are reluctant to attend Christmas mass, or any other religious ceremony because they are afraid for their safety,” he said.
Hombre de Maiz
23-01-10, 11:45
We've heard it all before. The rather tired explanation that "they are not practicing the true faith". I ask once again: Given that the faith is based on subjective, personal experience and interpretation needing no reason or logic, who is really to say what the "true" faith is? I am certain that those whose faith is being called into question are equally convinced that theirs is the proper faith.
Is it not disingenous and/naive to proffer this justification? For as long as "faith" is the principal principle, there will be continue to be many interpretations of the faith, ranging from laudable to downright hateful.
We've heard it all before. The rather tired explanation that "they are not practicing the true faith". I ask once again: Given that the faith is based on subjective, personal experience and interpretation needing no reason or logic, who is really to say what the "true" faith is? I am certain that those whose faith is being called into question are equally convinced that theirs is the proper faith.
Is it not disingenous and/naive to proffer this justification? For as long as "faith" is the principal principle, there will be continue to be many interpretations of the faith, ranging from laudable to downright hateful. You play with fire, you're gonna get burnt. Practicioners of "faith" have made their bed, now they--and we regrettably--must lie in it.
I share your sentiment on this only want to add that if they believe that it's not the "true faith", then they should show this more than just words - perhaps through actions that enable minorities (Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc) to practise their faiths safely and comfortably, including building religious buildings.
It seems that the comment only wants to "white wash" everything, while never address real issues.
2 churches, pastor’s home burnt in N. Sumatra
Apriadi Gunawan , The Jakarta Post , Medan | Mon, 01/25/2010 9:53 AM | Headlines
Security was restored Sunday after two Protestant churches and a pastor’s house were set on fire
allegedly by a Muslim mob in Sibuhuan, Padang Lawas regency, North Sumatra.
This is reportedly the first time such attacks have happened in the history of North Sumatra, where significant Muslim and Christian communities live alongside each other.
Two unregistered churches were burned down last Friday night by about 1,000 people in Sibuhuan.
The attack was the culmination of tensions between Muslims and Christians over the latter’s use of buildings not registered as churches.
North Sumatra Police spokesman Sr. Comr. Baharuddin Djafar said Sunday the attack caused no fatalities, and hundreds of Christians fled.
However, two days after the arson attack, none of the attackers have been arrested by the police.
“We are still investigating the case. We have yet to be able to identify the perpetrators as the burning of the HKBP and GPdI churches were carried out en masse,” Baharuddin told The Jakarta Post.
The leader of HKBP District I overseeing South Tapanuli and West Sumatra, pastor Marolop Sinaga, said at least 272 of his congregation at the HKBP Sibuhuan Resort Sion Nauli Ujungbatu Sosa fled their homes to avoid possible attacks.
He also expressed hope that the local authorities could restore peace and guarantee that his congregation would be able to worship securely and freely.
A police interim investigation, according to Baharuddin, revealed the burnings were incited by local residents angered that church managements failed to show licenses to set up local churches since 1982.
The residents, he added, had repeatedly warned the managements not to go ahead with establishing the two churches in the middle of the majority Muslim communities.
Baharuddin said there been an agreement in 1992 between the locals and the church administrators, stating that the development of the churches would not be continued.
But the agreement was violated and the churches kept continuing activities and worship, he said.
“Last Friday the managements actually were asked to dismantle the buildings used as places of worship but this was not done, so the mob spontaneously burned the two churches,” Baharuddin said.
The case has been discussed by the Padang Lawas administration, local agencies and religious leaders.
“They agreed that all the financial losses caused by the attacks will be covered and that neutral locations would be provided for Christians to rebuild the churches,” he said, adding that a follow-up meeting is scheduled for Monday.
Padang Lawas Regent Basyrah Lubis said his administration would facilitate the issuance of permits to rebuild the two churches.
He also called on the people to maintain peace and mutual respect among followers of different faiths. “Just don’t be afraid. We guarantee that no such incident will happen again,” he said, while calling on the fleeing victims to return home.
waarmstrong
25-01-10, 18:43
“Just don’t be afraid. We guarantee that no such incident will happen again,” said the spider to the fly.
I know I'm sticking my neck out here but cannot lurk anymore on this subject without comment.
IMO, violence in Indonesia has little to do with religion, but a lot to do with youth and their inability to be defined due to lack of a 'good' education, poverty, lack of opportunity and media.
This is where religious organizations fail, but get converts. That is where Governments fail, but lose citizens.
Soccer teams or media evoke more instability, or otherwise, than schools, church/mosque or family. The herd instinct becomes the norm.
The phenomena is not unique to Indonesia. Bill gates is already creating seminars to discuss the low educational value of schools in the USA...watch 'Waiting for Superman'.
With respect, I read the translated 13 points that President SBY promulgated today. IMO it is politics as usual. This rationale of keeping the country together, regional splitting into small countries with demagogues at the helm, tearing corruption into a 'he said-she said' ... is sucking the energy out of the audience.
Time to have a Presidential decree...stop...amnesty for those who wish to confess and END.
Meanwhile, youth of Indonesia need to be directed somehow, NOW, and that is not even in the 13 points.
My thinking is conscription might be a useful tool...every 16-18 year old must enlist and get educated in direct thinking and skill training to enable them to be productive.
The Military is best able to provide training in this direction without recourse to being actual Military Personnel.
Military/Police in Indonesia do have the facility for discipline, and training, if not the resource. Resources will need to be provided, perhaps from the Confessors?
Tourist income could provide some, if real tourism was encouraged, and a generous support from neighboring countries if they did not feel threatened, particularly to their investments, by the violence that they currently associate with religious extremism, in any format.
Sorry to rant ...just an opinion.
David
I know I'm sticking my neck out here but cannot lurk anymore on this subject without comment.
IMO, violence in Indonesia has little to do with religion, but a lot to do with youth and their inability to be defined due to lack of a 'good' education, poverty, lack of opportunity and media.
This is where religious organizations fail, but get converts. That is where Governments fail, but lose citizens.
Soccer teams or media evoke more instability, or otherwise, than schools, church/mosque or family. The herd instinct becomes the norm.
The phenomena is not unique to Indonesia. Bill gates is already creating seminars to discuss the low educational value of schools in the USA...watch 'Waiting for Superman'.
With respect, I read the translated 13 points that President SBY promulgated today. IMO it is politics as usual. This rationale of keeping the country together, regional splitting into small countries with demagogues at the helm, tearing corruption into a 'he said-she said' ... is sucking the energy out of the audience.
Time to have a Presidential decree...stop...amnesty for those who wish to confess and END.
Meanwhile, youth of Indonesia need to be directed somehow, NOW, and that is not even in the 13 points.
My thinking is conscription might be a useful tool...every 16-18 year old must enlist and get educated in direct thinking and skill training to enable them to be productive.
The Military is best able to provide training in this direction without recourse to being actual Military Personnel.
Military/Police in Indonesia do have the facility for discipline, and training, if not the resource. Resources will need to be provided, perhaps from the Confessors?
Tourist income could provide some, if real tourism was encouraged, and a generous support from neighboring countries if they did not feel threatened, particularly to their investments, by the violence that they currently associate with religious extremism, in any format.
Sorry to rant ...just an opinion.
David
I tend to agree with the general thrust of your point David.
I would add to your second point in that I believe it is the general upbringing of Indonesian kids, or specifically the lack thereof that contributes greatly to the general attitude and lack of discipline.
I'm aghast, however at your suggestion that the Indonesian Military be proposed as the primary role models, tho' on the other hand I suppose it would give them the skills to riot and create mayhem in a more organised, effective and disciplined manner... :whistle:
I tend to agree with the general thrust of your point David.
I would add to your second point in that I believe it is the general upbringing of Indonesian kids, or specifically the lack thereof that contributes greatly to the general attitude and lack of discipline.
I'm aghast, however at your suggestion that the Indonesian Military be proposed as the primary role models, tho' on the other hand I suppose it would give them the skills to riot and create mayhem in a more organised, effective and disciplined manner... :whistle:
Thanks OM.
and your proposal is?
David, having worked first hand with many kids 'at risk back in Oz, and as a Father myself to three, I can assure you that there are other more positive and meaningful means of providing options for developing a sense of responsibility, purpose and discipline in a child's life other than conscription, especially in Indonesia with regard to such a notorious group as TNI.
I think Indonesia has had more than it's fair share of the Militarisation of it's Society. The uniforms of every Tom Dick and Harry fortunate enough {debatable} to have a Government job displays this fact clearly!
The key to me lies in early childhood, and simply observing the day to day upbringing of the average kampung kid clearly shows a distinct lack of parental involvement in these children's lives. So first, free access to Contraception and Government funded Health Care Clinics that provide quality Education in Child Developmental needs and promotion of birth control, with the emphasis on actively being a part of your child's life, teaching them core values of self and community responsibility, self discipline, healthy recreation, positive work ethics as against tidak apa2.... I admit, I'm raving now and it's too late at night, perhaps the cause is hopeless here, too many people, not enough jobs combined with the widely held and self destructive attitude that it doesn't matter if I fail, my family will take care of me or I can always shake a tin or a stick at the traffic lights and make a living, besides it beats working...:whistle:
Judicial review of 1965 law dangerous, says minister
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Fri, 01/29/2010 9:27 PM | National
Religious Affairs Minister Suryadharma Ali says a judicial review filed against the 1965 Law on Religious Blasphemy is potentially dangerous since it could spark unlimited freedom of religion in the country.
“If the Constitutional Court rules in favor of the review, we are afraid it will pave the way for unlimited freedom of religion. People will be allowed to found religions, change the holy book and set up religious sects at will,” Suryadharma said at the opening of a national meeting of the United Development Party (PPP), which he chairs, in Medan on Friday.
Unlimited freedom of religion would create social upheaval, as religious followers would react against blasphemy, he said.
A coalition of human rights watchdogs and civil society groups are seeking a review of the 1965 law, which they say restricts the freedom of religion in Indonesia. The Constitutional Court began its hearing on Wednesday.
The legal battle comes on the heels of a series of crackdowns against religious sects deemed to be heretical.
Suryadharma said he was working with various Islamic organizations such as Muhammadiyah and Nahdlatul Ulama, to fight the case in court.
“All Islamic groups are against the judicial review,” he said as quoted by Antara.
NOTA - addit
The Judicial Review has been filled by prominent Indonesian NGOs (such as Imparsial, ELSAM (http://www.elsam.or.id/aboutelsam.php) (link in english), PBHI (Perhimpunan Bantuan Hukum dan Hak Asasi Manusia Indonesia), DEMOS (http://www.demosindonesia.org/frontpage/)) and private parties such as K.H Abdurahman Wahid former president of the RI and Prof DR. Siti Musdah Muliah (http://www.parliamentofreligions.org/index.cfm?n=27&sn=60) (link in english) a well known muslimah reformist and active interfaith dialogue promoter. I trully hope for Indonesia that Mahkamah Konstitusi will review in a positive way the demand and that at last, Indonesia and Indonesian in their divesrity will be allowed to enjoy a real freedom of religion and won't be restricted to a shortsighted conception of faith and religion imposed by a few bigots who are offended by anyone with different views about it.
For those who want to know more about it and are indonesianist:
Ringkasan Permohonan Perkara (http://www.mahkamahkonstitusi.go.id/Resume/resume_Permohonan%20Perkara%20140%20%20UU%20Penoda an%20Agama.pdf) (Summary of the application for review of the case in bahasa Indonesia)
More about the Judicial review of UU 1/1965 (http://idrusfirmansyah.multiply.com/journal/item/44/AKKBB_melakukan_judicial_review_UU_No._1_Tahun_196 5_Tentang_Penodaan_Agama) ( a blog article and a couple of comments in bahasa Indonesia)
Undang Undang nomor 1 tahun 1965 tentang pencegahan, penyalahgunaan dan/atau penodaan agama (http://www.badilag.net/data/Penpres/PENPRES_1965_1.pdf). (in bahasa Indonesia)
Penjelasan UU 1/1965 (http://legislasi.mahkamahagung.go.id/docs/PENPRES/PENPRES_1965_1_JPS.pdf). (in bahasa Indonesia)
Sounds like a showdown is ahead, I believe the United Development Party is considerred moderate, is that correct? If so, how will the others react, l just hope, for Indonesia's sake it doesn't turn nasty.
Exciting developement for Indonesia.
Hombre de Maiz
30-01-10, 10:26
...
“All Islamic groups are against the judicial review,” he said as quoted by Antara.
...
"Unlimited freedom of religion"? How terrible! Yet they will have us think that there is no compulsion in religion, and that they are "tolerant".
From their insecurity and paranoia/xenophobia, you´d think they are the minority...
More pressure...
Blasphemy law still needed: Minister
The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Sun, 01/31/2010 7:48 PM | National
Religious Affairs Minister Suryadharma Ali said Sunday that Indonesia was still in need of the blasphemy law in order to main harmony among religious followers, especially among Muslims.
Speaking in Medan, Suryadharma said Islam was open for different interpretations to its teachings, but not to its core issues.
Although the law was created in 1965, the minister said, it was still relevant for pluralistic Indonesia.
"In short, this blasphemy law is still needed and still very relevant for our very pluralistic society," he said.
A coalition of human rights watchdogs and civil society groups are seeking a review of the 1965 law, which they say restricts the freedom of religion in Indonesia. The Constitutional Court began its hearing last Wednesday.
Suryadharma argued that if the Constitutional Court ruled in favor of the review, it would open the way for unlimited freedoms of religion, leading to the foundation of various religious sects.
"None of us want the current peace and harmony among religious followers to be disrupted by various unwanted religious sects. If that happens it would jeopardize national stability," he said.
Apart from the 'jobs for the boys' aspect, could there be a hidden agenda in this guy getting that position? ... :scared: Or is it simply loose cannons syndrome, again.
Hombre de Maiz
01-02-10, 12:59
I wonder how the other four religions feel about the proposed revision/amendment/repeal of the law. Are they equally insecure? Do they likewise feel threatened by religious pluralism? Or is it simply yet another case of religion (the dominant one) being used to justify the status quo and the preservation of previledge and power, trumping considerations of justice and reason?
I wonder how the other four religions feel about the proposed revision/amendment/repeal of the law. Or is it simply yet another case of religion (the dominant religion) being used to justify the status quo and the preservation of previledge and power, trumping considerations of justice and reason?
I agree with the revision. I guess it's always the case of status quo. What do you think?
Hombre de Maiz
03-02-10, 10:50
Another article and an Op-Ed this morning in The Jakarta Post highlighting the increasing violent intolerance for religions other than Islam. Perhaps those who responded Totally Respected and Good Enough/No need to improve can explain their increasingly tenous position.
Religious persecution ‘remains high’ in West Java: New studyhttp://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/03/religious-persecution-%E2%80%98remains-high%E2%80%99-west-java-new-study.html (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/03/religious-persecution-%E2%80%98remains-high%E2%80%99-west-java-new-study.html)
Is religious tolerance a success in Indonesia? No, it’s not!
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/03/is-religious-tolerance-a-success-indonesia-no-it’s-not.html (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/03/is-religious-tolerance-a-success-indonesia-no-it’s-not.html)
Sounds like a showdown is ahead, I believe the United Development Party is considerred moderate, is that correct? If so, how will the others react, l just hope, for Indonesia's sake it doesn't turn nasty.
more compelling information...
NU opposes blasphemy law review
Dicky Christanto, The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Mon, 02/01/2010 10:06 AM | Headlines
Nahdlatul Ulama (NU), the country’s largest Muslim organization, said Sunday it was against the move made by some NGOs and backers of pluralism to request the Constitutional Court to review the 1965 Blasphemy Law. NU chairman Hasyim Muzadi told a national meeting of former members of NU Students Association in Jakarta that he expected the court to reject the request, saying that revising the law would do more harm than good to society.
“We have to be able to differentiate between democracy and moral deviation,” Hasyim said as quoted by Antara.
Religious Affairs Minister Suryadharma Ali also expressed opposition to the NGO moves. “If the law is eventually scrapped, then many people will cast aspersions against other religions,” he said in Medan as quoted by tempointeraktif.com.
Hasyim, who has headed the NU since 1999, said the NGOs should be thankful that the law has provided the government with a legal instrument to prevent disturbances arising from alleged blasphemous acts. The NU, founded in 1926, has around 40 million members, mainly in Java. It was set up to preserve traditional Islam against colonialism and the spread of Wahabism.
A group called the Advocacy Alliance for Freedom of Religion filed the judicial review request at the Constitutional Court in November last year. They believed the 1965 law was discriminatory against certain religious groups.
The first hearing will be held Feb. 4, hearing opinions from representatives of the government and the House of Representatives.
The group includes Imparsial, the Policy Research and Advocacy (Elsam), the Indonesian Human Rights and Legal Aid Association (PBHI), the Institute for Studies on Human Rights and Democracy (Demos), the Setara Institute, the Desantara Foundation and the Indonesian Legal Aid Foundation (YLBHI).
Also included in the group filing the lawsuit were national icons of pluralism, including the late Abdurrahman “Gus Dur” Wahid, who chaired NU before Hasyim, recipient of the Magsaysay Award and former Muhammadiyah chairman Syafii Maarif, and noted Muslim intellectual Dawam Rahardjo.
Muhammad Nurkhoiron, director of Desantara, whose members are also in NU, said Hasyim Muzadi’s views reflected his fear of the birth of new religious sects which would oppose established religions. However, Nurkhoiron said no one could guarantee that any laws, especially the 1965 law on blasphemy, could stop the emergence of new religious sects or groups.
“That’s a sociological fact. One cannot deny the fact that some people are no longer satisfied with the more established religions. The problem is that I don’t think Hasyim understands sociology,” he said.
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In the past 10 years, the federal government has signed multiple international agreements to recognize the fundamental rights of all humans, but yet the grumbling of the "status quo" in this nation has so far trumped the sensibility of protecting/suporting/defending those human rights. As Baha'is, my wife (a native Indonesian) and I are viewed by the current "laws" as humans without equal rights as the "status quo", therefore we have no option to choose other or "fill in the blank" when asked to identify our faith on 99% of civil documents (ironically, the foreigner registration document at Kantor Imigrasi has an option of other...go figure). Neither of us have ever been harassed, attacked, insulted, etc..., by anyone (including those who identify themselves as Muslims) in the rural or metropolitan areas of the nation when it is learned that we are Baha'is, although we do know of others who have experienced these type of actions in Sulawesi and East Java. With that said, my feeling is that we may finally be on the doorstep of change in this Gregorian year of 2010. Yes, there may be trickles of outcry in pockets around the nation for a short period of time if the Constitutional Court overturns the 1965 law (which clearly contradicts the Constitution), but surely not mass protests, riots, or even anarchy as those insecure voices of opposition desire many to believe.
Hombre de Maiz
03-02-10, 17:27
Before this issue came to the surface, no one would have called NU extreme or out of the mainstream yet they, too, reject the review. For crying out loud, the mass association linked to Gus Dur´s party is against pluralism!
The impression is that the mainstream of political Islam in Indonesia cannot countenance pluralism beyond emply platitudes. How is one to reconcile their claims that theirs is a religion of tolerance and peace with this position?
Note that in the last 24 hours two more forum members have voted in the poll stating that in their view religion is Totally respected.
As long as there are still many uneducated and poor people it's difficult to obtain 100% tolerance in religion.
Whether they are educated/uneduated, rich or poor, does it matter?
Unscrupulous Religious Leaders who deliberately or at least ignorantly mislead people with their teachings, will always have an impact upon the Religious attitudes of some, especially when no one is allowed to openly question or critisise one's Faith...
Hombre de Maiz
04-02-10, 13:29
It´s yet another variant of the same empty, discredited justification "they are not practicing the true faith". In this case, they don´t know any better, they cannot grasp the true faith because they are poor and uneducated. Sorry, B_Santoso, the problem is more complex and profound than that. That you fail to see it or properly diagnose it is symptomatic of the disease itself.
Ria Ulfah Ardhiyani
04-02-10, 16:02
Is religious tolerance a success in Indonesia? No, it’s not!
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/03/is-religious-tolerance-a-success-indonesia-no-it’s-not.html (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/02/03/is-religious-tolerance-a-success-indonesia-no-it%E2%80%99s-not.html)
Now, this news is scaring me Hombre.
I worry as much as the writer.
Dooohhhh....:doh: It's so dead now. What's wrong with NU? Failing down?
Even observers have their angle of views. There is no thing wrong with NU, IMO. When Christmast comes, some churchs are guarded by NU's Banser (a kind of militia). NU leaders don't have same opinion, it's common in an big organization like NU. PKB, which is an political party under NU influence some of its position occupied by Christians.
Even observers have their angle of views. There is no thing wrong with NU, IMO. When Christmast comes, some churchs are guarded by NU's Banser (a kind of militia). NU leaders don't have same opinion, it's common in an big organization like NU. PKB, which is an political party under NU influence some of its position occupied by Christians.
What concerns me is your statement that 'When Christmast comes, some churchs are guarded by NU's Banser (a kind of militia)' why would that be if Indonesia is tolerant of other religions, and why would a Religious Organisation ever need a Militia?
waarmstrong
04-02-10, 18:04
Its really a telling comment on the state of affairs when religious organizations have their own Brown Shirts (Banser -- a kind of militia).
In fact, there is always a group of hardliner, radical people in any religion (M Top cs, Dr Azhari, Amrozi etc for example in here). If I'm not mistake, NU's Banser was founded to fight PKI (indonesia communist party) militia.
What concerns me is your statement that 'When Christmast comes, some churchs are guarded by NU's Banser (a kind of militia)' why would that be if Indonesia is tolerant of other religions, and why would a Religious Organisation ever need a Militia?
In Sulawesi Utara, which is a province with a strong christian majority, we do have christian militias. The Brigade Manguni (http://www.facebook.com/pages/BRIGADE-MANGUNI-INDONESIA/116119293406) and the Milisi Waraney (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=166160866536). I always thought that they were some kind of group in charge to taste and rate the locally produced Cap Tikus, such as a wine conoisseur fraternity, but my wife is persuaded that they have some other activities. :whistle:
Is this what is mean't by tolerance for the Religion of others in Indonesia? Each of the major sides, apparently prepared to defend their faith by whatever means.
Having witnessed hundreds of young Islamic teenagers in Solo all marching in Military style, demonstrating against the existance of Achmadiah it's not exactly a reflection of a peaceful coexistance of Faiths...
That's the tolerance level which can be reached up to now, maybe about 60-70%. Indonesian people still have to struggle to increase that level of tolerance. But this matter is not Indonesia special case as it can happen in Australia when some Christian hardliners force Muslim students from India studying in Australia decrease significantly.
That's the tolerance level which can be reached up to now, maybe about 60-70%. Indonesian people still have to struggle to increase that level of tolerance. But this matter is not Indonesia special case as it can happen in Australia when some Christian hardliners force Muslim students from India studying in Australia decrease significantly.
Would you care to elaborate on that, a link to your source would be helpful... and what information do you base your estimate of 60/70% of the population being tolerant towards other Religions upon?
waarmstrong
05-02-10, 00:23
In fact, there is always a group of hardliner, radical people in any religion (M Top cs, Dr Azhari, Amrozi etc for example in here). If I'm not mistake, NU's Banser was founded to fight PKI (indonesia communist party) militia.
Perhaps they had a hand in the genocidal rampage that saw the murder of half a million "communists."
Would you care to elaborate on that, a link to your source would be helpful... and what information do you base your estimate of 60/70% of the population being tolerant towards other Religions upon?
My rough estimate is based on the number and size of religion conflict data collected from newspaper article clippings. There are so many sources available, unfortunately conveyed in Bahasa (KOMNAS HAM, BALITBANG DEPAG, LP3ES, ...etc). Google search helps much to find them. One of them and the good one is from the Gajahmada University with the following link :
http://mprk.ugm.ac.id/content/view/73/77/lang,id/ (http://mprk.ugm.ac.id/content/view/73/77/lang,id/)
Perhaps they had a hand in the genocidal rampage that saw the murder of half a million "communists."
Abdurrahman "GUS DUR" Wahid on behalf of NU has apologized to Ex PKI family/partisan for this case.But I think they feel it's not enough.
Would you care to elaborate on that, a link to your source would be helpful... and what information do you base your estimate of 60/70% of the population being tolerant towards other Religions upon?
Another research conducted by University of Paramadina Jakarta :
http://www.paramadina.or.id/2009/277/riset/the-patterns-of-religious-conflict-in-indonesia-1990-2008.html (http://www.paramadina.or.id/2009/277/riset/the-patterns-of-religious-conflict-in-indonesia-1990-2008.html)
"This study was possible through the cooperation between YWP and Program Magister Perdamaian dan Resolusi Konflik, Universitas Gadjah Mada (Postgraduate Program for Peace and Conflict Resolution-Gadjah Mada University/MPRK-UGM), and The Asia Foundation (TAF). In addition to this joint effort, we are also collaborating to run the Police, Civil Society and Religious Conflict in Indonesia program to contribute to the protection of religious freedom in the country by ensuring that religious conflict is solved through peaceful means."
Hombre de Maiz
05-02-10, 10:23
These diagnoses of "tolerance" and prescriptions for the improvement thereof rest on the increasingly questionable and tenous premises that i.) there is absolutely nothing wrong or objectionable in the body of belief, and that ii.) the deviations witnessed everyday are simply due to the a flawed understanding and practice thereof. In other words, the point of departure for analysis and prescription is always that the body of belief is perfect and beyond question. This approach is akin to stating that the problem of capitalism is with capitalists, that the problem with Communism was with communists, and that those bodies of belief, are in and by themselves, wholly unassailable and sound, that their problems are due solely with a flawed understanding and practice thereof, with the practitioners, or to the external conditions or environment. (e.g. poverty and lack of education was one such external condition given here).
For example, a market fundamentalist would argue that the reason that capitalismo often fails to deliver the expected or theoretical outcomes is due to distorsions in the market, collusion or imperfect competion. A Marxist ideologue would have argued that the underperformance of a controlled economy was that pockets of capitalism remain, and that as soon as all private production is abolished and taken over by th state, Marxism will be realized in perfect accordance with theory. Likewise, a religious fundamentalist would argue that negative religious outcomes have all to do with the external conditions or the enviroment, or with the players.
In all cases, I would argue that the absence or inability for a dispassionate, thorough reassessment of the fundamental tenets of the bodies of belief is only likely lead to the wrong conclusions and prescriptions.
waarmstrong
05-02-10, 13:55
Abdurrahman "GUS DUR" Wahid on behalf of NU has apologized to Ex PKI family/partisan for this case.But I think they feel it's not enough.
I am reminded of the abusers of the public trust, who, once caught stealing from the public purse, think that giving the money back makes everything right with the world.
Gus Dur had some great ideas. Too bad they all died before he did.
I am reminded of the abusers of the public trust, who, once caught stealing from the public purse, think that giving the money back makes everything right with the world.
Gus Dur had some great ideas. Too bad they all died before he did.
The descendants have benefit and restoration, and at least recognition. I don't see the same genuine act done by a lot of "modern civilized nations". Perhaps you could inform me where you come from so we may learn from you. USA? Australia? Great Britain?
think_tank
10-02-10, 17:59
I have very mixed feelings on this issue. On one hand we have Churches being burnt down by mobs, little girls getting their heads lopped off and Chinese residents getting the most horrible things done to them during riots in the city - all apparently in the name of God and the religion of Islam.
These things make me extremely mad and amongst other things makes me feel that indeed the Muslim community in Indonesia is intolerant, mostly silent on the ills of their own community and in some cases outright barbarous criminals who use religion to justify great sins against humanity.
On the other hand however; most of these Muslims that are tarnishing the name of the religion and the community which they unofficially represent are but a product of the society they live in. You hear Muslims often quote that the "Golden age of the Jews was in Muslim Spain", that the Jews of Israel were allowed and even invited for their second exodus to Palestine by the grace of the Muslim khalifah himself and arrived under Muslim protection in ever increasing numbers, hundreds of years before the Jewish state was declared, and lets not forget the one that is used most often, of the peaceful spread of Islam through provision of better living conditions for all subjects of the major faiths throughout Muslim lands both new and old and the prohibition by the khalifah of the destruction of any churches or synagogues and the slandering of any other peoples beliefs.
These augments of tolerance in Islam are often met with comments such as "your living in the past" and the highlighting of some minority cases where the Muslims failed to protect peoples of other faiths or in the case of a couple of Mongol leaders commuted atrocities against humanity (often through ignorance and new found zeal of the faith).
My point for mentioning the above is that if the Muslim majority were educated in there own religion properly as they once were when Islam was expanding across the globe, only then would the true tolerance of Islam shine as without knowledge people act according to their desires not according to any wisdom in matters. Unfortunately the education of the Muslims in matters of religion is exactly what secular governments and almost all of the world's leaders don't want as this would mean a "domino effect" of Islamic Politics, Economics and Unification across the globe once again.
You can see how the world reacted to the spread of communism and how they jumped to stamp it out in any country in took a foot hold in, now try to imagine a far superior ideology that not only works on human logic like communism did but also is based on the belief and guidance from one true and infallible God. That and the fact that is has been tried, tested and proved to excel all others is enough to throttle the leaders of the world into an even greater state of action. What you have seen worldwide is a very concise, planned and careful suppression of Islamic studies. The worst part of this being that the leaders of this movement are all born Muslims.
Anyway at the end of this roller coaster rant I'd just like to finish by saying tolerance on a whole in Indonesia is very very good as I've lived in Indonesian communities of mixed faiths and have been very impressed, but on the other hand lack of Islamic education and lack of people knowing the right way, right time and whether to even act on issues is usually an accident waiting to happen.
Power to the people, and knowledge is power, not money :P although sometimes it's hard to realize.
P.S. Please don't correct me on spelling and grammar mistakes, I haven't had the care to check over this piece ;).:spy:
Hombre de Maiz
10-02-10, 18:51
This myth of a time when Islam was pure and it reigned supreme in a regime of tolerance and peace is, I am afraid, just that, a myth. Check out Efraim Karsh´s Islamic Imperialism (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0300106033) for a dose of reality on how Islamic polities and empires have behaved towards other Muslims and to their subjects. Btw, the Ummayads of Spain were an outlier in Islamic history, and it was quickly overthrown in the heartland of Islam--Arabia, Fertile Crescent, Iraq and Iran--for its secular and tolerant nature. The Ummayads of Spain are an aberration, an exception to the general pattern.
Allow me, further, to give you an example closer to home, for the spread and adoption of Islam in Java is similarly shrouded in myth. The standard narrative is that the Wali Songo spread the faith, and lo and behold, millions of people converted in mass almost overnight without any bloodshed, compulsion or coercion. This narrative has remained relatively unchallenged because no Muslim Indonesian historian or social scientist would dare or think to suggest otherwise, or even investigate or probe more deeply. Similarly, this narrative has been reinforced by the official narrative of Indonesian nationalism, which sees Islamic resistance to Christianity as an embryon of Indonesian resistance and the nation. Let´s now move on the example.
Indonesia´s capital, Jayakarta, was formerly called Sunda Kelapa when it has held by the Hindu kingdom of Pajajaran based around now-days Bogor. In those days, it could not be said in any sense that Sunda Kelapa or West Java were "Muslim lands" for Islam had yet to be adopted there. The great Portuguese chronicler Tome Pires reported that West Java was still Hindu in the early 16th century. The Islamic polity of Demak (or Gresik, sorry I get them confused) in nowadays East Java sent commander Fatahillah to dislodge the Portuguese Infidels from Sunda Kelapa. The Portuguse were routed by Fatahillah through the force of arms, and that´s how Sunda Kelapa became Jayakarta. This is just one example of the not-so-peaceful, expansionist and militant nature in which Islam spread in Java. Sultan Agung´s military campaigns in Central Java are another example.
think_tank
10-02-10, 19:23
Hello hombre,
Your argument is an old one and has already been refuted many times. Yes violence is embedded in Islamic history as it is within any empire throughout history as even with America they themselves admit that any diplomacy is futile without first having a military force to be reckoned with. But, unlike many of the empires throughout history tolerance is embedded the most in Islamic history, this was not limited to Spain as you are claiming but across the entirety of the Islamic empire. It has been well documented that Islam eventualy spread to all areas gradually and peacefully without force. Any area which was forced into conversion at anytime, usually stabbed their Muslim oppressors in the back the first chance they got and then reverted back to their old ways. That is historic fact and is so wide a spread case that it cannot be refuted, unlike your augment which is shallow in depth, used as propaganda and doesn't cover the whole picture and period of Islamic rule with any dexterity at all.
That being said, to discuss the above matter further would be unnecessary in this thread and should be perhaps directed to a history forum. I was simply highlighting some well known and undisputed facts of history which are often used to try and prove that Islam is tolerant, and elaborating in that the reason for the success of these times was the great scholorship amongst the masses of Muslims at those times. Therefore getting to my final point that the ignorant mobs and criminals doing all these dirty deeds in the name of Islam are just that - ignorant beyond doubt in the wisdom and guidance of Islam.
Thank you very much.
Hombre de Maiz
10-02-10, 19:41
This, of course, from one who voted "Good enough/No need to improve". You, think_tank, have refuted nothing.
“. . . now try to imagine a far superior ideology that not only works on human logic like communism did but also is based on the belief and guidance from one true and infallible God”. What a load of tripe. Islam divides the world into two portions: (1) the Dar al Islam, the World of Islam, and (2) the Dar al Harb, the World of War. According to Islamic belief, peace is possible only within (1) the World of Islam.
That means that, until the entire world has converted to Islam, Muslims are at war with everyone else - forever. So you’re at war with ME!
Those who say this murderous religious threat comes only from "Islamic fundamentalism" or "Islamic extremism" do not understand the point of Muslim terrorist attacks. Those who believe the terrorist enemy is confined only to a few fanatics do not correctly portray the nature of Islam, itself.
War against the unbeliever is as central a doctrine and practice of Islam, just as the Virgin birth, the Trinity and Christ's resurrection are central to Christianity.
Islam is a religion of war. Present-day terrorism as an extension of a religious war. Unfortunately, peaceful, liberal Muslims are out of step with their religion. They are outsiders looking in.
The two principle sources of Islamic belief are full of war and blood. The Koran includes texts like these:
* Defining war as "a religious obligation for the faithful";
* “Fight and slay the pagans," means kill non-Muslims; and
* "The punishment of those who wage war against God and his Apostle" is about vengeance for those who resist conversion to Islam.
The Hadith, a collection of sayings from Mohammed, quotes him as saying:
* There is no deed "which equals Jihad" in reward.
* That "a single endeavor [of fighting] in Allah's cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it.
* That the only satisfaction a martyr could derive from coming back to earth would be "so that he may by martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives [from Allah] .
* "Know that Paradise is under the shade of swords."
* That "exposing their [the non-Muslims'] women and children to danger" is justified because as "the prophet replied, 'They are from them."
Now, why don’t you tell me again, Think Tank, how tolerant Islam is <grin>.
Anyway . . . I'd just like to [say] tolerance on a whole in Indonesia is very very good . . .. Of course it is. That’s because the lands of Indonesia had thousands of years of Hindu influence to learn tolerance before Islam arrived.
If you want to see what Indonesia will be like if it continues its “Islamic education” as you call it, then you go to the Arab Middle East for a few months or years. How Arab Muslims live in contention with everything is enough to make you puke. Now, that is your real “accident waiting to happen”.
P.S. Please don't correct me on spelling and grammar mistakes, I haven't had the care to check over this piece .Let me translate for him: what he means is he doesn’t care enough about his readers to spend one minute spell checking his work before posting it. Typical lazy thinking.
Have a Nice Forever :o
(N.B. - Some of my response text borrowed from the Internet. Attributes available upon request)
think_tank
10-02-10, 20:48
Thank you PakRT for the energy you put into your post. Unfortunately when one pastes from websites the often have unlimited ammunition fro anti-Islam propaganda. Any attempt from me to refute claims from hate websites would only be met with more and more claims giving me a full-time unpaid job from which I would be overworked and overqualified for (not nice).
Thankfully many hate websites have triggered other re-hate-websites to pop up which usually have the job of refuting any claims which are not fitting and seem to enjoy the task.
Your information that the world consists of Darrul Islam and Harul Harb (war) was probably released by a extremist or uneducated group of buffoons as I have also studied different matters with students of knowledge whom only study with authentic evidence from the Quran and Sunnah and have recieved a completely different story all together. Allah SWT hates the aggressors and anybody who lifts a sword against a non-Muslim nation when that nation has done nothing against them will anger their lord, this is Islam and that is from the tradition of the quran and sun-nah upheld by scholars for over 1400years.
Now if that first part of your post was bollocks then I'm only to assume the rest which you pasted is along the same line but to amuse you I'll try and proceed (I should be getting paid for this).
The two principle sources of Islamic belief are full of war and blood. The Koran includes texts like these:
* Defining war as "a religious obligation for the faithful";
* “Fight and slay the pagans," means kill non-Muslims; and
* "The punishment of those who wage war against God and his Apostle" is about vengeance for those who resist conversion to Islam.
Firstly yes to defend the yourself weak against oppressors and aggressors is an obligation and will be rewarded by God. Just as to join the defense force in Korea is an obligation for every male over 20 and in good health and will be rewarded (somewhat) by the government).
Secondly yes to fight against those oppressors whether they be pagans or atheists is a duty for all who are able so that the land can be peaceful again and order returns. This does not mean you go out and attack any pagan country or land you see. Rather it is a duty to bring the message of Islam to them in a peaceful way.
Those who wage war against God and his Apostle are people who declare war against the Islamic Nation or their Allies. Just as if Korea would wage war against Peru tomorrow, the Peruvian government would surely fight back no?
The Hadith, a collection of sayings from Mohammed, quotes him as saying:
* There is no deed "which equals Jihad" in reward.
* That "a single endeavor [of fighting] in Allah's cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon is better than the world and whatever is in it.
* That the only satisfaction a martyr could derive from coming back to earth would be "so that he may by martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives [from Allah] .
* "Know that Paradise is under the shade of swords."
* That "exposing their [the non-Muslims'] women and children to danger" is justified because as "the prophet replied, 'They are from them."
Now to all except the last one I can only continue to say that these would be (if they are true hadiths) rewards for soldiers who fight for there country in defense of the weak.
In regards to the last "quote" I have many authentic traditions from the prophet which refutes this going so far as to forbid even the cutting of a branch if it can be avoided in war.
So in summary of you cuts and pastes and your blatant claims that Islam is a religions of terror I feel you are angry or maybe confused about the fact that Islam is a complete way of life. Encompassing social, political, military, economical and all aspects of life, linking everything to God and the path of righteousness so that men are guided in the best and most complete way and can not claim ignorance on the day of judgment.
If you are so angry that's you choice, but please don't insult my faith or the faith of others as I haven't done that to you because I know how you would feel, and reactions wouldn't be pleasant.
You also don't have to call be a lazy thinker or the like, not very nice you see.
Peace out!
think_tank
11-02-10, 18:43
Ok PakRT I will try and use some of my ever valuable time on this earth to respond to parts of your post which I was accused of being uncomfortable with. Yes I am uncomfortable with your post because I know when someone is set on hating Islam and has spent allot of time learning how to verbally attack Muslims it's probably going to be a hard time convincing them to do otherwise. I speak from experience of spending a good year replying to haters on the net only to find the situation usually got worse when they would often try to Insult my prophet directly to try and get reactions. I'm afraid that's just not cricket. But seeing as you haven't done that I'll try and talk some sense into you :boink: and see what happens.
"Those who say this murderous religious threat comes only from "Islamic fundamentalism" or "Islamic extremism" do not understand the point of Muslim terrorist attacks. Those who believe the terrorist enemy is confined only to a few fanatics do not correctly portray the nature of Islam, itself."
I have many close friends who study Islam in depth everyday of the week to try and make sure they are one the true path. Why is it that my friends reflect the exact opposite of what you say above? You will find if you studied Islam with an open mind that Islam is a system which gives strict guidelines on how to avoid conflict, behave during conflict and resolve conflict :grouphug:.
"War against the unbeliever is as central a doctrine and practice of Islam, just as the Virgin birth, the Trinity and Christ's resurrection are central to Christianity."
You could not be more wrong. Like I mentioned before war in inevitable regarding the human race. Islam teaches us how to be proper when war comes to our doorstep "the rules of combat" that any nation should have are not only in the laws but also in the heart and mind of every learned Muslim, thus creating a just nation that if the unfortunate event happens that they do go to war, acts in a most humane and righteous manner :angel: .
Further more the closest that Islamic doctrines go to allowing war for the spread of Islam is as follows.
1. Missionaries are sent to all world leaders requesting the allowance of peaceful da'wah (propagation of Islam) within the rulers lands.
2. If the leader refuses that the missionaries entrance to their land and will cause harm to them if they enter the leader is thus oppressing their subjects by not allowing them the choice of accepting Islam.
3. If such an event were to occur the Muslim army would have to overthrow the oppressor so that the people of the land could have to choice to accept Islam. This happened numerous times in history and it often happened that the leader would simply allow access and there was no fighting or they took over the land after being refused access and the majority non-muslim population would stay that way for hundreds of years often accepting Islam very gradually and not due to the taxes imposed by the new Muslim ruler (as some may claim).
So as you can see regarding point one, the leaders of the non-Muslim nation could use simple and easy diplomacy to stop any violence from entering their land. You can see a good example of this system being used with the spread of Islam in China which now has over 33 million Muslims.
"Islam is a religion of war. Present-day terrorism as an extension of a religious war. Unfortunately, peaceful, liberal Muslims are out of step with their religion. They are outsiders looking in."
Well actually your wrong, there are in fact three camps, not two.
1. Majority of Muslims (unlearned)
2. Alims - righteous students of knowledge (learned)
3. Extremists (unlearned or learned without the purity of heart that is required to absorb the wisdom of Islam)
So as you can see from group two which you failed to mention about in your post. Islam itself is not the problem at all if in regards to the peace and prosperity of the human race.
"Of course it is. That’s because the lands of Indonesia had thousands of years of Hindu influence to learn tolerance before Islam arrived. "
Interesting concept and I will agree with you that the basic way of life that the Indonesian people is highly influence by the original hindu traditions (although not necessarily tolerant traditions) and this has been continued on with many Muslims not learning the true Islam because of the Sufi form which their forefathers accepted from the walisogo which was often entwined with Hinduism. And with the knowledge of this already when I made my comment of Indonesians being in general a very tolerant community, I was not attributing that to either Islam or Hinduism. If anything it's probably just due to their social structure and norms which have been developed over the last few hundred years or so. This none the less doesn't change the fact that Islam is a religion that teaches tolerance and even respect for other faiths even going to far to call the Jews and Christians our "cousins" and to say that the Christians are "closest to us".
"If you want to see what Indonesia will be like if it continues its “Islamic education” as you call it, then you go to the Arab Middle East for a few months or years. How Arab Muslims live in contention with everything is enough to make you puke. Now, that is your real “accident waiting to happen”.
I learned under Arabs as well as people from other areas of Asia (not including Indonesians) and I can assure you there is no problem with Islam there. The problem is that there are more of Camp 3. and more of Camp 1. which have been exposed to hundreds of years of violence and originate for warrior tribes whose warrior traditions are often in opposition to the wisdom of Islam:deadhorse:.
"Have a Nice Forever "
I truly hope the same for you.
"(N.B. - Some of my response text borrowed from the Internet. Attributes available upon request)"
No thank you as they would probably come with more things to reply to and I have limited time in a day. All the best. And my apologies to anybody who feels the thread has been hijacked to discuss theology and history.
Further more the closest that Islamic doctrines go to allowing war for the spread of Islam is as follows.
1. Missionaries are sent to all world leaders requesting the allowance of peaceful da'wah (propagation of Islam) within the rulers lands.
2. If the leader refuses ...
3. ... the Muslim army would have to overthrow the oppressor so that the people of the land could have to choice to accept Islam. This happened numerous times in history ...
Sounds like. "AN OFFER THEY CAN'T REFUSE!"
Now what does that remind me of???
Sounds like. "AN OFFER THEY CAN'T REFUSE!"
Now what does that remind me of???
This, maybe?
http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/godfather-horse-head-pillow-4.jpg
Think_Tank, you're late coming to the party. This kind of discussion has been going on in this forum long before you even knew how to spell Al-Wahid. Remember this for posterity: "just because someone doesn't respond to your proselytizing, doesn't mean he agrees with you".
This, maybe?
Great minds.
Now let's just put the sandal on the other foot:
Can you imagine a group of missionaries <no snickering in the back there> going peacefully to Saudi to ask [for visas] to be let in to give the inmates the choice of converting [peacefully] to some other mysticism.
No, I can't either. <and I have an extremely vivid imagination>
think_tank
12-02-10, 14:49
[B]
Think_Tank, you're late coming to the party. This kind of discussion has been going on in this forum long before you even knew how to spell Al-Wahid. Remember this for posterity: "just because someone doesn't respond to your proselytizing, doesn't mean he agrees with you".
I fully understand you may not agree with me but at least you can begin to understand my point of view. And yes I could spell "Al-Wahid" 12 years ago for your information :P .
Hombre de Maiz
12-02-10, 14:54
Funny. I just watched The Godfather only a few days ago.
think_tank
12-02-10, 14:56
Great minds.
Now let's just put the sandal on the other foot:
Can you imagine a group of missionaries <no snickering in the back there> going peacefully to Saudi to ask [for visas] to be let in to give the inmates the choice of converting [peacefully] to some other mysticism.
No, I can't either. <and I have an extremely vivid imagination>
Yes you're right, I couldn't quite see that. But on the other hand Saudi Arabia is not an proper Islamic nation. There was in fact a case where some pastors went to Saudi Arabia before the gulf war while American soldiers were training up there. After the American troops left Saudi Arabia at least 9 of those pastors who accompanied the troops converted to Islam as they often entered into interfaith discussions with those who had set up "da'wah tents" for the special purpose of the American visit.
So I figure if missionaries were allowed access to S.A. then a similar situation would be at hand. But yes I don't think the S.A. goverment would allow that. I have thoughts about that hypothetical situation before and it is somthing I want to look further into. Food for thought, thats Gratilla.
I have thoughts about that hypothetical situation ...
I don't think 'hypothetical' is quite the right word. Try 'dumb'.
OK, how about trying to peacefully convert Muslims in the kampungs of Indonesia to some other belief?
It's illegal, BTW.
think_tank
12-02-10, 16:09
@Gratilla: Of course it's illegal. But if the nations of America, Russia, China and Japan combined threatened the president Indonesia with military intervention unless a few missionaries were allowed access to preach to Muslims in Indonesia. I'm sure concessions would be made. Si sinora?
waarmstrong
12-02-10, 16:12
But on the other hand Saudi Arabia is not an proper Islamic nation...
Yes, and Israel is not a proper Jewish state, and denial is not a long river in Egypt.
There was in fact a case where some pastors went to Saudi Arabia before the gulf war while American soldiers were training up there. After the American troops left Saudi Arabia at least 9 of those pastors who accompanied the troops converted to Islam as they often entered into interfaith discussions with those who had set up "da'wah tents" for the special purpose of the American visit.
This is so off the wall urban legend crapola, that even a true believer, a supposed intelligent one such as yourself, could ID it as a wholly self-serving fair tale. Some of your arguments seem to be thoughtful, but when you post such stuff with a straight face, it exposes you a true zellot with less than one eye for the truth.
Yes you're right, I couldn't quite see that. But on the other hand Saudi Arabia is not an proper Islamic nation. There was in fact a case where some pastors went to Saudi Arabia before the gulf war while American soldiers were training up there. After the American troops left Saudi Arabia at least 9 of those pastors who accompanied the troops converted to Islam as they often entered into interfaith discussions with those who had set up "da'wah tents" for the special purpose of the American visit.
Proof of this please.
think_tank
12-02-10, 16:33
I have a primary source Dr. Bilal Philips who helped in the tent during this period. You could probably find some ancient article about it somewhere. What was even more interesting about this period was the amount of regular US soldiers who accepted Islam at this time, although a percentage of them lost their new religion eventually or immediately after rotating back to the US there was a large percentage who kept their new faith, apparently enough to create a need for Islamic religious counselors to be sent to some military bases for those who followed the new found faith. All very interesting indeed.
Peace out!
Hombre de Maiz
12-02-10, 17:05
Reality check
* You are arguing with someone who sees not a problem with religious tolerance in Indonesia.
* Yet, to this moment, he has conveniently made himself scarce from the threads dealing with the judicial review of the blasphemy law now underway
* The arguing tactic is very transparent. He has annointed himself judge and arbiter of who is and who is not a proper Muslim, what constitutes and what does not constitute actions permitted or prohibited by Islam. By setting himself as the arbiter, he can always evade or avoid the issues by saying that the person or act in question does not represent Islam. In juridical terms, one would say that one cannot be both the judge and the defendant/prosecution at the same time.
* As I´ve argued before (posts no. 118 and no. 146 on this thread) and as Franz Magnis Suseno testified two days ago in the hearings around the review of the blasphemy law, charges of blasphemy, apostasy, sacriledge, etc. are all relative. It is equally plausible that other Muslims would consider Think_tank to not be a proper Muslim or to not represent Islam. In other words, this is not how one would mount a strong argument because it is all relative.
* You are debating with a person who claims that Communism worked based on human logic.
* You are debating with a person who claims that the essence of Islam lies in its imperial expansion more than 1,100 years ago, and who believes that imperial Islam was tolerant and peaceful.
But if the nations of America, Russia, China and Japan combined threatened the president Indonesia with military intervention unless a few missionaries were allowed access to preach to Muslims in Indonesia. I'm sure concessions would be made. Si sinora?
But this is NOT the Protestant / Orthodox / Confusian / Shito way <in the modern world>.
Seems THAT WAY is a monopoly of just one major religion.
think_tank
12-02-10, 18:29
Reality check
* You are arguing with someone who sees not a problem with religious tolerance in Indonesia.
* Yet, to this moment, he has conveniently made himself scarce from the threads dealing with the judicial review of the blasphemy law now underway
* The arguing tactic is very transparent. He has annointed himself judge and arbiter of who is and who is not a proper Muslim, what constitutes and what does not constitute actions permitted or prohibited by Islam. By setting himself as the arbiter, he can always evade or avoid the issues by saying that the person or act in question does not represent Islam. In juridical terms, one would say that one cannot be both the judge and the defendant/prosecution at the same time.
* As I´ve argued before and as Franz Magnis Suseno testified two days ago in the hearings around the review of the blasphemy law, charges of blasphemy, apostasy, sacriledge, etc. are all relative. It is equally plausible that other Muslims would consider Think_tank to not be a proper Muslim or to not represent Islam. In other words, this is not how one would mount a strong argument because it is all relative.
* You are debating with a person who claims that Communism worked based on human logic.
* You are debating with a person who claims that the essence of Islam lies in its imperial expansion more than 1,100 years ago, and who believes that imperial Islam was tolerant and peaceful.
I'm so happy you posted that up Hombre. It shows you have really take the care to try and get to know me. I will however help you by pulling you up on a couple of things.
1. I do see a problem with religious tolerance, there are problems everywhere with that, some great and some small. However overall religious tolerance in Indonesia is good.
2. If I haven't posted on some threads it was either because I was unaware of them, didn't have time, didn't care about them, couldn't provide input or maybe didn't want to incite augments, there are many possibilities.
3. I haven't anointed myself Judge or the like rather I have studied under salafi teachers and only pass on what I've learnt from them. The salafi way is followed by all the major Islamic universities world wide whether it be Al-Azhar, Medina or the oldest functioning degree giving university in the world in Fez Morroco (the name slips my mind).
4. I don't know about the Franz Magnis Suseno case, perhaps I've been under a rock the last couple of weeks.
5. I meant communism was based on human logic. I didn't say it was logical or that it would work or should be followed, in fact I hate communism and what it did to this world.
6. Over 1400 years ago actually. And don't fail to mention I admitted that there were many atrocities committed under Muslim rule but rather than concentrate on them I preferred to highlight the majority of cases were model tolerance was implemented and where peace and honour reigned supreme. There were thousands of different Muslim rulers some who did great injustice to Islam, lets not concentrate of the bad eggs when so many beautiful swans arose (you can quote me on that).
Keep trying hombre, who knows maybe we could become good friends with all this getting-to-know-each-other?
think_tank
12-02-10, 18:37
But this is NOT the Protestant / Orthodox / Confusian / Shito way <in the modern world>.
Seems THAT WAY is a monopoly of just one major religion.
Each man to his own way I guess. It's kind of beautiful that Islam has so many unique and effective qualities that other religions lack. This one for instance if implemented gives every woman, man and child the ability to receive the message of Islam and accept it if they want. Where as with another religion whole nations back in the day may have been ear muffed and blindfolded by their leaders without having anybody to save them from ignorance.
Is that the kind of reply you wanted?
In the words of Mba Surip "I love you full, ha ha ha ha"
Each man to his own way I guess. It's kind of beautiful that Islam has so many unique and effective qualities that other religions lack. This one for instance if implemented gives every woman, man and child the ability to receive the message of Islam and accept it if they want. Where as with another religion whole nations back in the day may have been ear muffed and blindfolded by their leaders without having anybody to save them from ignorance.
Is that the kind of reply you wanted?
Is that the kind of reply you think I wanted?
Four vacuous statements lacking substantiation and a condescending "conclusion" that non-Muslims need to be"saved from their ignorance". Ignorance of what precisely? One clear example would be sufficient.
Personally, there are many things that I know that I believe are not worth knowing and, in retrospect, I would have prefered to be ignorant of. I don't think I'm too different from many/most other people in that respect.
waarmstrong
12-02-10, 22:28
I have a primary source Dr. Bilal Philips who helped in the tent during this period. You could probably find some ancient article about it somewhere. What was even more interesting about this period was the amount of regular US soldiers who accepted Islam at this time, although a percentage of them lost their new religion eventually or immediately after rotating back to the US there was a large percentage who kept their new faith, apparently enough to create a need for Islamic religious counselors to be sent to some military bases for those who followed the new found faith. All very interesting indeed.
Peace out!
For someone not partial to pork, you certainly put out a lot of baloney. More crappola from the same vague source, likely.
Think_Tank says . . . although a percentage of them lost their new religion eventually or immediately after rotating back to the US there was a large percentage who kept their new faith, apparently enough to create a need for Islamic religious counselors to be sent to some military bases . . .. All very interesting indeed.I'd be interested to know what you find "interesting" about it.
First, most US military personnel who are Muslim are Black. Many black soldiers (or their parents) adopted Islam because they saw that traditional Christianity had become politicized in the United States. Instead of working to alleviate the Black Man's burden of living there, many Blacks thought Christianity, as practiced, contributed to their being discriminated against. Hence, they went shopping for a new belief system. Islam is the only one that wants to remake the world socially. So it makes sense, dunnit, that some Blacks have turned to Islam?
Currently, the numbers of U.S. military personnel, by religion, look like this:
http://sg.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-BB809_MILMUS_NS_20091106191616.gif
As you can see, the number of Muslims is still very small. The first Muslim chaplain in the military, Army Lt. Col. Abdul-Rasheed Muhammad, was appointed in 1994. This, to me, shows how forward thinking the military is.
Further, the U.S. military is now actively recruiting Muslims to serve. This is especially true for Arab Muslims. Their language and cultural knowledge and skills are sorely needed. Foreign Muslims willing to enlist and serve in Iraq and Afghanistan as military translators and cultural advisers receive hefty signing bonuses and expedited paths to citizenship.
Army officials at the Pentagon said that Muslim soldiers who felt their religion prevented them from fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan could claim conscientious objector status and seek noncombat assignments in the U.S. But officials said they weren't aware of any Muslim soldiers who had done so.
However, Muslims serving in the military, especially since 9-11, can be a problem because (1) some civilian Muslims feel that military members are prejudiced against Muslims and, (2) some non-Muslim military personnel worry about "fifth columnists". That is, they worry about Muslims who serve in the military but who secretly have allegiance to promoting terrorism on behalf of Islam.
This has already happened at least several times. in Iraq, Army Sgt. Hasan Akbar, a convert to Islam, rolled a grenade into a tent filled with other soldiers in April 2003. The attack killed two officers and wounded 14 others. During his court-martial, prosecution witnesses testified Sgt. Akbar had committed the attack because he believed the U.S. military would kill Muslim civilians during the coming invasion. Sgt. Akbar was later sentenced to death.
More lately, on November 5, 2009, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, an Army psychiatrist at Ft. Hood, Texas, walked into a room on the base and started firing at people while yelling "Allah Akbar". He killed 13 people and wounded 30 others before being shot and disarmed, himself.
Now, please tell us Think_Tank, what you find "interesting" about Muslims in the U.S. Military.
Hombre de Maiz
12-02-10, 23:57
I think it is fair to say, think_tank, that no one here besides yourself believes in your idyllic history-cum-stories, whitewash, denial and myths any more than they believe in Sinterklas, Thor or the Chupacabra.
You may wish to take note of the fact that the Hudson Institute´s Center for Religious Freedom (http://crf.hudson.org/)assigns Indonesia a score of five (5), one (1) being freest and seven (7) being the most unfree, in its ranking of religious freedom (http://crf.hudson.org/articledocs/TheRangeofReligiousFreedom.doc) throughout the world.
I never like to be rude PakRT, but all I see in that post is balls.
2384
I haven't much bothered with this thread because it strikes me that most of the people who want to restrict freedom of religion are, with some irony, the more extreme atheist posters on this forum.
However, now I have moved from a mainly Muslim village to an estate with a lot of Christians, I have noticed some changes but not that much.
No one has mentioned any restrictions or force (implied or actual) stopping them from attending church or following a Christian lifestyle.
No one has mentioned anything suggesting they are anything but accepted in the community.
I'm sure there are a small number that don't like churches around but no strain is showing.
Frankly there is nothing here suggesting an undertone of any religious tension at all and I believe the whole thing is down to a very small minority of extremists that do not represent the interests or will of the majority.
I further believe that some forum extremists are using these few to highlight a small problem and make it appear as something far bigger than it really is.
I never like to be rude PakRT, but all I see in that post is balls.
Okay, here are the numbers:
Protestant - 422,893
Catholic - 289,706
No Religious Preference - 271,923
Other Christian - 245,386
Other - 122,116
Jewish - 4,515
Muslim - 3409
Also, attached is a make-over of the text in the graphics.
-msg ends--
waarmstrong
13-02-10, 08:45
The so called small minority of Muslim extremists who seem to pop up in the news constantly in a variety of locals, sure seem to get around. Your characterization, Fred, of the incidents of religious violence and discrimination as unrepresentative appears to be self-serving, apologetic, wishful thinking. They could be, and more likely are, the tip of the ice berg.
Hombre de Maiz
13-02-10, 11:08
Another forum user voted Totally Respected just now. I´d like to hear the perspectives of people who voted Good Enough/No need to improve and Totally Respected. How do they reckon?
I´ll explain my own vote, Not respected at all. There can be no respect for freedom of religion in a state that allows the profession of only six among hundreds, if not thousands, of human religions. There can be no respect for freedom of religion where there is no freedom from religion. To be atheist is a crime in Indonesia. There can be no respect for freedom of religion in a state that prohibits people of different religion from marrying. Embedded in a Muslim majority population, what religion does this policy favor? In other words, whose religious interests does the so-called Pancasila state serve? The Indonesian state not only proscribes religions, but also adopts a bias towards one religion. There can be no freedom of religion in a state where the state itself--by ommission or commission, deliberately or inadvertently--discriminates based on religion. Assessments of religious tolerance in Indonesia, therefore, must begin and be based on, not subjective personal anecdotal evidence, but rather the juridical framework.
Case in point: the Political Party Law
Have you noticed that whereas there are several Muslim parties, there only one or two inconsequential, localized parties representing Christians? To form a party Indonesian law requires that the party have a presence (usually an office) in two-thirds of the country´s provinces and in two-thirds of the kabupatens in those provinces. These are daunting, overly restrictive requirements for any party, let alone minority parties whose geographical distribution is localized. Embedded in a Muslim majority country where the only religious group likely to be able to meet the requirements for party formation, what religion does the law, in real practice, favor?
A more sophisticated survey would break down the results by the religion of the respondant. It is expected that adherents of each religion will each have a different take on freedom of religion, particularly in a country in which religions are not equally distributed in numbers. Like the review of the blasphemy law, the pro and con groups are arrayed, not as you would expect them according to the issues of legality and justice, the Right/Left split, etc, but rather along sectarian lines. In other words, the review of the blasphemy law, like the votes on this poll, are split along Muslim vs. Non-Muslim lines, along Majority vs. Minority. In essence, the issue has become a religious clash by proxy.
Karen Armstrong, a religious historian with a sympathetic view towards Islam, argues in one of her books that whereas at one time Islam may have been a progressive champion of social transformation and social justice, nowadays in many quarters it has become a force of the status quo or a regressive, atavist force looking inwards and to the past (e.g. the Islamic state, the worldwide Caliphate). Muslim opposition to increased religious tolerance and to the review of the blasphemy law is an example of this phenomenon, belying the myth that religious tolerance in Indonesia is Good Enough/No need to improve or Totally Respected, and calling into question the tortuous argument that concerns about religious tolerance in Indonesia exists only in the minds of "forum extremists".
The so called small minority of Muslim extremists who seem to pop up in the news constantly in a variety of locals, sure seem to get around. Your characterization, Fred, of the incidents of religious violence and discrimination as unrepresentative appears to be self-serving, apologetic, wishful thinking. They could be, and more likely are, the tip of the ice berg.
Interesting.
Pictures of the results of violent crime are on the various crime programs every day. There are commonly stories about murderers sodomising young boys and killing of maids in HK and Malaysia.
Does this mean all young boys are sodomised and murdered by men or all who go to work abroad are raped and maybe murdered or is it that the news programs would be bloody boring if it was all about the millions that get home safely from school and the millions who come home from work with no harm at all.
Interesting.
Pictures of the results of violent crime are on the various crime programs every day. There are commonly stories about murderers sodomising young boys and killing of maids in HK and Malaysia.
Does this mean all young boys are sodomised and murdered by men or all who go to work abroad are raped and maybe murdered or is it that the news programs would be bloody boring if it was all about the millions that get home safely from school and the millions who come home from work with no harm at all.
I think the country with higher TKI murders than HK and Malaysia is Saudi Arabia.
About the religious surpression, I found this interesting data:
INDONESIA
North Sumatra, two Protestant churches burnt: "too many faithful and too many prayers"
by Mathias Hariyadi
At least 1,000 people set fire to the Pentecostal community places of worship. According to local Muslims, the two buildings did not have the legal permits as "churches." The Nahdlatul Ulama admits the violence of radical Islamists against Christians. In 2009 in Indonesia, 35 cases of violation of religious freedom, 28 against Christians.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/North-Sumatra,-two-Protestant-churches-burnt:-too-many-faithful-and-too-many-prayers-17427.html
ONLY 35 in the seemingly peaceful 2009.
I wonder how much the number will increase if we include:
1. The hardness to build churches or to get pemit to build religious building aside the majoirity religion.
2. The harrassment received by minority both in real life or in the media, regarding their faiths, while they are unable to join in a healthy defense (or question back) the harrassment due to the "anti-blasphemy" law.
I wonder how people can say that the religion in Indonesia is totally respected. Does the person really understand what "respect" is?
Hombre de Maiz
13-02-10, 19:19
Dear John,
Do you feel that the problem of religious intolerance is real? Or do you think that, as suggested here, it is all in the heads and imagination of some forum members?
Do you feel that those who "want to restrict freedom of religion" are forum members? Or do you think that it is instead the mainstream groups (Muhammadiyah, NU, the Minister of Religion, the Minister of Human Rights, Muslim political parties) along with fringe groups who want to limit religious pluralism?
Do you think that some forum members are responsible for hyping up the issue, or are some other forum members in denial?
Dear John,
Do you feel that the problem of religious intolerance is real? Or do you think that, as suggested here, it is all in the heads and imagination of some forum members?
Do you feel that those who "want to restrict freedom of religion" are forum members? Or do you think that it is instead the mainstream Muslim groups (Muhammadiyah, NU, the Minister of Religion, the Minister of Human Rights, Muslim political parties) along with fringe groups who want to limit religious pluralism?
Do you think that some forum members responsible for hyping up the issue, or are some other forum members in denial?
1. I feel the problem as real.
2. There are certainly mainstream Muslim groups, except Gus Dur supporters or those joining the pluralism groups. But a big part of the groups you mentioned are against pluralism, both in a subtle or in a direct way.
3. Some members are in denial, since there are proofs presented regarding the religious intolerance. The problem also lies in the fact that the law and the institutions expected to protect people often fail to protect minorities.
All above are my opinion, based on my experiences (personally know some churches burnt during riot) and the data I read.
Looks like you two kids can get a room now and share in forum friend exchanges.
See Fred, learning to read has its advantages. Maybe if you used that skill your reach beyond a 25 meter radius of your welcome mat would increase knocking credability up.
Hombre de Maiz
17-02-10, 13:45
Here´s a pertinent article from today´s The Jakarta Post.
Fear of the religious starts early
Prodita Sabarini , The Jakarta Post , Jakarta | Wed, 02/17/2010 1:19 PM | Features
Although Indonesia has long been a melting pot of religious and ethnic groups, differences in faith still breed curiosity, fear and even animosity. When Kelik Wicaksono opened the door of his house to two leaders of his neighborhood one Saturday morning, he didn’t expect to hear the kind of news the two men brought him.
Kelik and his wife, both Christians, had been giving English lessons to children in their neighborhood in Pondok Cabe, South Jakarta, every Saturday afternoon.
“It was a very sad moment. The men came to tell us that two local ulemas from another village had voiced their concerns about the content of our class,” Kelik said.
“They were afraid because my faith is different from theirs. And they were worried I was teaching [the children] something else,” he said.
In fact, ulemas and neighborhood leaders were so concerned they held a meeting about the class at the sub-district level.
“What I don’t understand is why didn’t they come to me personally instead of talking behind my back and having a meeting about it?” he said.
The class, Kelik said, teaches children English in a fun way. Sometimes the 15 to 30 children, who are all Muslims, learn to sing and dance, other times they make origami artwork.
When the news of the day was the conflict between the National Police and the Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK), students took part in discussions on that topic. When asked what the duties of the police were, one of the girls in the classroom answered with certainty: “to catch the KPK”.
“Our class is very secular,” he said. “What we can see from it [the class], is that children are now more courageous and confident... because our class is very laid back,” he said.
Kelik and his wife are still holding the class and will meet with the neighborhood leaders to discuss how to address their concerns.
A few children have stopped coming to the class after their parents forbade them to do so.
“The children said, ‘They say you’re teaching us Christian sholat’,” Kelik said. Sholat is the Muslim prayer ritual.
Religious minorities are still persecuted in parts of the country, with certain groups more prone to having their freedom of worship violated.
While permission to build a mosque, the place of worship for Muslims, is easily attained, given the majority of people in Indonesia are Muslim, Christians at times find it more difficult to build their own places of worship.
Last March, Depok mayor Nur Mahmudi Ismail revoked the building permit for a Batak Protestant church in Limo, Depok. Last month, a mob burned down two Protestant churches and the home of a pastor in North Sumatra.
Kelik said he had talked to people around his neighborhood and found they were afraid of Christianization.
When it comes to Islamization however, people remain tightlipped and the state will rarely take any action to stop it, said Jajat Burhanudin, the head of the Center for Islamic and Society Studies (PPIM) at Syarif Hidayatullah State Islamic University in Jakarta.
According to Jajat, some public schools and universities are becoming hotbeds for radical Islamic thinking, with student religious groups preaching intolerant behavior towards people from different religions.
Jajat added that compartmentalized religious education in public schools and the conservative attitude of religious studies teachers contributed to religious intolerance in Indonesian schools.
In 2008, PPIM did a survey involving 500 Islamic studies teachers in Java and found that most teachers were opposed to pluralism, tending toward radicalism and conservatism. The worrying results speak for themselves.
The study shows 62 percent of the surveyed Islamic teachers, including those from Nahdlatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah – the country’s two largest Muslim organizations – rejected the notion of having non-Muslim leaders.
Almost 70 percent of the respondents were opposed to non-Muslims becoming their school principle and close to 35 percent were against having non-Muslim teachers at their schools.
Around 75 percent of the teachers didn’t want followers of other religions to build their houses of worship in their neighborhoods, the survey found.
Eighty five percent of teachers prohibit their students from celebrating big events perceived as Western traditions, while 87 percent tell their students not to learn about other religions.
In addition, 48 percent of the teachers would prefer female and male students to be separated into different classrooms.
The survey also shows 75 percent of the respondents had asked their students to call on non-Muslim teachers to convert to Islam, while 61 percent reject new Islamic sects.
In line with their strict beliefs, 67 percent said they felt more Muslim than Indonesian.
The majority of respondents also supported the adoption of sharia law in the country to help fight crime.
According to the survey, almost 60 percent of the respondents were in favor of rajam (stoning) as a punishment for all kinds of crimes and almost 50 percent said the punishment for theft should be having one hand cut off, while 21 percent want the death sentence for those who converted from Islam.
Only 3 percent of the 500 surveyed Islamic studies teachers said they felt it was their duty to produce tolerant students.
Jajat said the state had failed to take measures to contain a growing radicalization of Islam in public schools.
“The seeds of conservatism start early and educational institutions have always been the place to spread a certain ideology,” he said.
Islam-based political parties are actively collaborating with high schools to create “integrated” schools, he added. “It is part of a deliberate strategy to Islamize public schools,” he said.
While religious groups should not be stopped from opening day schools or boarding schools – even if those end up spreading their ideology, Jajat said, the situation becomes a worry when proselytizing happens in public schools.
“It shouldn’t happen in public schools. The government funds public schools with tax payers’ money. All religions should be treated equally,” he said.
He said democracy and universal values should be taught at school, while “the strengthening of primordial religious identity be avoided”.
Children should be exposed to different faiths as early as possible so they become accustomed to differences in society, Jajat said.
They should also be encouraged to have interfaith dialogues or join activities with people from different faiths.
“It can be something completely unrelated to religion, like how to tackle the problem of garbage,” he said.
The Indonesian religious education system, in which students are given religious studies based on the faith they adhere to, is very compartmentalized and does not stimulate tolerance and understanding between different faiths, Jajat lamented.
“At the same time, there is no effort to make the students see beyond religious symbols,” he said.
Recently a Facebook page titled “Replace religious education in high school with studies about ethics, humanity and basic philosophy” was created. The page now has 400 fans.
When asked about the page, Jajat said he fully agreed with the message.
“Basically, we should hold on to universal values,” he said.
One of the group’s fan, Karl Karnadi, an Indonesian atheist who lives in Germany, said he supported the group because he believed the current religious education system did not promote pluralism.
“In my opinion, intolerance tends to arise when a person is only taught about one religion all of his/her life without having been given the chance to know about other religions and their followers,” he said.
“Why not use religious studies for that? Teach people about more than one religion. Teach them at least about Indonesia’s six ‘official religions’. Give children a chance to get to know different religions outside the ones they adhere to. And in a descriptive way [like Wikipedia] rather than by indoctrinating them [like at church or with Koran readings],” he said.
“That’s an interesting idea, don’t you think?” Karl mused.
Copyright © 2008 The Jakarta Post - PT Bina Media Tenggara. All Rights Reserved.
A very good article, HDM. Thank you for bringing it. :) I believe my number (35 cases) previously should be higher....cosidering subtle harrassment like what Kelik experienced will not be included in the "casses", because it's too "small".
think_tank
19-02-10, 16:11
Jeez there are a lot of haters on this forum. I would call them extreme atheists. If they had of read between the lines and had a more positive outlook they would realize that most educated Muslims do not want to put a gun to their head or encroach on their basic human rights.
Muslims who care about their religion and take the time to study Islam and what it teaches about tolerance of other faiths often live very peacefully amongst non-Muslims some times even considering them close friends. These Muslims are not going to vanish overnight and are probably not going to stop caring about their religion any time soon either. What those atheists who are dead set on destroying faith in Islam are doing, are only making those above mentioned Muslims more steadfast in and more defensive of their faith. It also shows great intolerance as often accusations against Islam are direct accusations against the good Muslims who do their uppermost to practice their faith.
Now if anybody is interested in tolerance, inter-faith/belief discussions and living in harmony with those of other faiths. I would say from experience, step one is to not insult the religion or the beliefs of others. All that that does is create disharmony amongst the community.
You will find that a 'good Muslim' will never go to someone of another faith and insult their beliefs. Rather they will try and discuss things with them in the best way possible. It's my view that this is the way to go about things.
I wonder whether they will even think about their methods after this.
Peace out!
-Think Tank
Jeez there are a lot of haters on this forum. I would call them extreme atheists. If they had of read between the lines and had a more positive outlook they would realize that most educated Muslims do not want to put a gun to their head or encroach on their basic human rights.
Muslims who care about their religion and take the time to study Islam and what it teaches about tolerance of other faiths often live very peacefully amongst non-Muslims some times even considering them close friends. These Muslims are not going to vanish overnight and are probably not going to stop caring about their religion any time soon either. What those atheists who are dead set on destroying faith in Islam are doing, are only making those above mentioned Muslims more steadfast in and more defensive of their faith. It also shows great intolerance as often accusations against Islam are direct accusations against the good Muslims who do their uppermost to practice their faith.
Now if anybody is interested in tolerance, inter-faith/belief discussions and living in harmony with those of other faiths. I would say from experience, step one is to not insult the religion or the beliefs of others. All that that does is create disharmony amongst the community.
You will find that a 'good Muslim' will never go to someone of another faith and insult their beliefs. Rather they will try and discuss things with them in the best way possible. It's my view that this is the way to go about things.
I wonder whether they will even think about their methods after this.
Peace out!
-Think Tank
Hi, brother,
At the moment we are discussing the religious tolerance in Indonesia, thus I am presenting the fact that in Indonesia there are still oppression to the minority religions.
I don't see what it has anything to do with "destroying" Islam? It's way too far and a strawman, IMHO.
think_tank
19-02-10, 17:58
@ John john: Well if you aren't one of those who despise Islam and are out to try and prove good Muslims wrong then that's great John, good on you.
In regards to the last article that was posted from the Jakarta Post I would agree with most of it. The only downside of learning about all religions in their community during High School is most Indonesians don't even know enough about their own religion at this stage so obviously the priority would be for them to properly learn about their own before others. On the other hand if more time could be spent learning about their own religion in more depth, then before the end of high school I completely agree their should be unbiased education about other faiths.
@ John john: Well if you aren't one of those who despise Islam and are out to try and prove good Muslims wrong then that's great John, good on you.
In regards to the last article that was posted from the Jakarta Post I would agree with most of it. The only downside of learning about all religions in their community during High School is most Indonesians don't even know enough about their own religion at this stage so obviously the priority would be for them to properly learn about their own before others. On the other hand if more time could be spent learning about their own religion in more depth then before then end of high school I completely agree their should be unbiased education about other faiths.
I see that other posters like HDM, etc, admitted Gus Dur, a muslim, as a good example, so I don't think your assertion that they are trying to portray good muslims as bad, really accurate.
Perhaps some of their acid comments come from the present situation that vocal muslims in Indonesia are hard-liner islamists whose aim among others are to change our beloved country into a sharia-based country, who persecute minorities, etc. They, as I am, are waiting for more peace loving muslims to have voices.
As you may see currently, Gus Durs and other peace loving muslims even seem to be the minority among muslims. I believe it's the homework for peace loving muslims to solve, because the more silent you are, the more the hard-liners get winds to spread their hatred and intollerance towards non muslims, and in the end makes the non-muslim think that Islam doesn't equate to peace.
Just my opinion.
think_tank
19-02-10, 18:33
@ John john: Well written opinion John. And some really good points. Power to the people. Silence is just another form of violence ;)
think_tank
19-02-10, 18:35
But on the other hand I feel Gus Dur is also a bit of an extremist, especially in his founding of the Wahid institute.
Hello Boys, where have you been lately?
Perhaps some [posters'] acid comments come from the present situation that vocal muslims in Indonesia are hard-liner islamists whose aim among others are to change our beloved country into a sharia-based country, who persecute minorities, etc. They, as I am, are waiting for more peace loving muslims to have voices.
Note to John - that's one of the things that pisses me off even more than the bombs they detonate. If Islam is such a peaceful religion, and the extremists are only a few sexually disfunctional maniacs, why don't the great majority of the 1.82 billion Muslims rise up against the FEW "bad" Muslims?
Can you imagine what would happen if suddenly tomorrow a small percentage - say, five percent - of the 6.7 billion Christians started blowing up airliners, cutting off Muslim school girls' heads, blowing up places of worship, and generally showing how miserable they were to have a life? Do you think the remaining 6.37 Christians who believed in love and not hate, would just sit quietly and wait “for more peace-loving [Christians] to have voices”? (John’s quote).
Some have said Muslims who condone violence to promote Islam are apostates. I say that any Muslim who does not believe in the hatred and violence that other Muslims are now sowing, and who does not rise up - vocally and physically - against those apostates is either (1) a coward or (2) a supporter of those violent apostate Muslims.
. . . because the more silent you are, the more the hard-liners get winds to spread their hatred and intollerance towards non muslims, and in the end makes the non-muslim think that Islam doesn't equate to peace.
If you believe this, John, why are you waiting - as you admitted, above - “ for more peace loving muslims to have voices”. Scared, huh? Does Islam not promote personal bravery makes a man stand against everyone if that man believes himself to be right?
@ John john: Well written opinion John. And some really good points. Power to the people. Silence is just another form of violence ;)
To get a better idea of your position in this problem, Tank, what did you think were the good points in John's post? Also, what do you mean “Power to the people” in relation to what John said? And finally, how is silence “just another form of violence”?
Hombre de Maiz
19-02-10, 19:28
If the threshold for debate and criticism were set below that which is considered polite, inoffensive, safe or acceptable, said "debate and criticism" is nothing more than a cordial Sunday brunch at the country club among inbred cronies, a mere talking shop.
If the threshold for debate and criticism were set below that which is considere polite, inoffensive, safe or acceptable, we would still be living with apartheid in South Africa, slavery in the American South, denial of suffrage to women in most countries, military occupation in Timor-Leste, dictatorship in Chile, Dutch colonies in Indonesian territory, untrammeled monarchy in France, unfetterd royal privilidge and writ in the British Isles.
If the threshold for criticism were set below that which is considered polite, inoffensive, safe or acceptable, Muhammad would not had criticized the Arabs of his miliu, and he would have refrained from criticizing, denigrating and battling the various native religions that once existed in Arabia.
In other words, what is considered polite, safe, acceptable and inoffensive cannot be, among civilized and ethical men and women, the threshold for debate and criticism. The notion that religious freedom can exist in the absence is freedom of expression is downright preposterous, wholly illogical. Adapting a famous phrase by Benjamin Franklin, those who sacrifice freedom of expression for religion deserve neither and likely will end up losing both.
why don't the great majority of the 1.82 billion Muslims (...)
if suddenly tomorrow a small percentage - say, five percent - of the 6.7 billion Christians
1.82 billion muslims + 6.7 billion christians... without counting the buddhist, the hindouist and others... wow... those bloody humans have fornicated a lot since my time in school. :whistle:
They didn't just fornicate, they "went forth and multiplied".
waarmstrong
19-02-10, 20:37
If you fellows want to discuss multiplicitous fornication, perhaps you should high-jack the rabbit thread.
TT: I was just about to comment on your earlier "Jeez ..." post <which is curiously full of contradictions and ironically a great disservice to Islam, BTW> when I came across your:
The only downside of learning about all religions in their community during High School is most Indonesians don't even know enough about their own religion at this stage so obviously the priority would be for them to properly learn about their own before others. On the other hand if more time could be spent learning about their own religion in more depth, then before the end of high school I completely agree their should be unbiased education about other faiths.
What precisely is "their own religion"? If they "don't even know enough about their own religion", how can they claim to be believers? Believers of what? Believers in something they "don't ... know enough about"?
Now don't think this is a stab against Islam. All religions <without exception> are the same. eg "Give me a child for the first five years of his life and I will guarantee he will be a Jesuit for the rest of his days".
The vast majority of theists automatically adopt the same religion as their parents - a curious coincidence don't you think? One particular religion then goes so far as to threaten to kill its members who might wish to make a more informed decision. Sounds like a gang from the Bronx. Perhaps more logical would be to study religion before making a <more informed> decision after their "age of reason", don't you think?
BTW, "Jeez" is a corruption of "Jesus" which some Christians may believe to be blasphemous, particularly when uttered by a non-believer.
Hombre de Maiz
20-02-10, 10:10
Who here thinks that the world would have some much religion as it does if people i.) were introduced to religion only as adults when they can make a deliberate and informed choice whether to adopt it, ii.) modern science and religion science were taught before or alongside religion, and iii) religion were something that had no elements of coercion or compulsion, leaving the person free to adopt it or reject it without repercussions?
Would you want to become a member of a body of belief that threatens you with eternal damnation, or worse, death in this world, when and if you chose to leave it?
Grats: FYI, the Jesuits are renowned for providing a broad, critical education that leads many of their pupils to reject theism. I am one such case.
waarmstrong
20-02-10, 10:20
I wonder if the Jesuits count Hombre as one of their educational successes?
Hombre de Maiz
20-02-10, 10:29
The modern day Jesuits, Waarm, have bigger fish to fry than to worry about the soul and salvation, the promise of eternal life of one of their pupils. Extremely few Jesuits now are typical priests with parishes. Instead they´ve been at the forefront of social transformation, having played a central part in the development of theologies of liberation, the option for the poor and debt relief for the most indebted countries/Jubilee. In other words, they are not interested in narrowly sectarian, parochial issues, but rather in development and justice for the world´s poor, irrespective of their religion or lack thereof. The are following the principal injunction of all Jesuits, "to be a man for others". They do not interpret this to mean, to be man for other Catholics, but rather broadly, to be a man for all humanity and God´s creation. Here in Indonesia most recently, the Jesuit Franz Magnis Suseno, a lecturer in an Indonesian university in Central Java, recently testified in the hearings around the Blasphemy Law, arguing against the rather common absolutist interpretation of apostasy.
Btw, Malay was first used as a language of religion and religious texts by a Jesuit, Francis Xavier.
waarmstrong
20-02-10, 10:51
True, Hombre, but I am still skeptical. Are you saying that Jesuits managing and teaching in Catholic schools are so into liberation theology, that students liberating themselves from the confines of the faith are counted as success stories?
Still, I understand that in some Catholic circles, the Jesuits are viewed as quislings. During the next inquisition they could be the first to go. With a German Pope and the resurrection of Pius, the pendulum may have begun swinging.
Hombre de Maiz
20-02-10, 11:10
What I am saying, Waarm, is that Jesuits in the main are no longer in the business of converting and saving souls. They don´t gauge their success by such a crude and parochial measure. In their view, the kingdom of God begins in this world, and it is achieved through praxis, rather doctrinal orthodoxy or ritual. For Catholics, orthodoxy and ritual without good deeds are not sufficient for salvation. The Jesuits take that to their logical conclusion, by insisting on praxis. In other words, as I have argued here earlier, what you believe plays second fiddle to your actions.
One example of a Jesuits teaching--and practicing--theologies of liberation is the Universidad de Centro America (UCA) in El Salvador where the Jesuit priests and nuns were murdered for speaking out against the injustice in their miliu. You may think that the Jesuits are dedicated exclusively to teaching. In fact, very many of them work work and head NGOs, relief organizations and legal advocacy groups. You may have come across many of them without even knowing it, for they don´t dress as priests, and act as normal civilians.
Who here thinks that the world would have some much religion as it does if people i.) were introduced to religion only as adults when they can make a deliberate and informed choice whether to adopt it, ii.) modern science and religion science were taught before or alongside religion, and iii) religion were something that had no elements of coercion or compulsion, leaving the person free to adopt it or reject it without repercussions?
Would you want to become a member of a body of belief that threatens you with eternal damnation, or worse, death in this world, when and if you chose to leave it?
Grats: FYI, the Jesuits are renowned for providing a broad, critical education that leads many of their pupils to reject theism. I am one such case.
Nah, I've just read their Mission Statement which reads like a Trades Union rule Book.
They do state....
A Jesuit education should aim to free its students to confront
honestly the social injustices of racism, sexism, and religious intolerance.
Schools should work to instill in their students a willingness to collaborate
“with others, …with other members of local churches, with Christians of
other denominations, with adherents to other religions, …with all who
strive to make a world fit for men and women to live in.”
It would seem that there mission statement is self defeating if as you say, the education you receive causes you to reject the religion that provided your education.
As I said elsewhere, religious schools do serve to provide a good education to others that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford it. If home life is sufficiently broad, then no amount of indoctrination at school will have much effect.
You obviously had a balanced home life and got a good education on the cheap, if your parents hadn't been so balanced then you could be wandering around with a black trilby and a bible ;-}
I am well aware of the positive impact that Jesuits have made by their ACTIONS.
Closer to my own area of interest a French Jesuit working <for over 30 years> among the peasant farmers of Madagascar developed what promises to be the greatest development in rice growing since ... ever. His SRI (System of Rice Intensification) method delivered such unbelievable increases in productivity as to be ... unbelievable, until a Chinese agronomy professor duplicated his results. Even then a peer-reviewed article in Nature written by scientists at IRRI severely criticized the system and they were in turn critically lambasted for "poor science".
Scandal in the rice fields.
Momma mia, your post was not gone but in the moderation chain (two identical posts in fact. I've approved one of them, which is viewable now and deleted the second one to avoid multiple posting). Sorry for the inconvenience. The server has undergone a new upgrade which imho is far from perfect. PM me if it happens again I will log to my mod panel and approve posts.
Once again, sorry. Enjoy posting.
I will delete post #240 & #241 after that you've read mine.
Thankyou - I didn't think I was being offensive, that was not my intention, rather just a little prickly if you like. It's a very interesting parallel pair of threads that deserve slightly to be intertwined.
thx again.
waarmstrong
21-02-10, 00:34
What I am saying, Waarm, is that Jesuits in the main are no longer in the business of converting and saving souls. They don´t gauge their success by such a crude and parochial measure. In their view, the kingdom of God begins in this world, and it is achieved through praxis, rather doctrinal orthodoxy or ritual. For Catholics, orthodoxy and ritual without good deeds are not sufficient for salvation. The Jesuits take that to their logical conclusion, by insisting on praxis. In other words, as I have argued here earlier, what you believe plays second fiddle to your actions.
I think I am beginning to understand the Jesuit educator. No matter that the teaching might tend to unsave the soul, so long as the new faithless continue to do good works. Case in point?
Hombre de Maiz
21-02-10, 00:44
I think that you are more hung up on this saving-of-souls business than all of the Jesuits that I´ve ever come across, Waarm...
waarmstrong
21-02-10, 00:44
... As I said elsewhere, religious schools do serve to provide a good education to others that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford it. If home life is sufficiently broad, then no amount of indoctrination at school will have much effect.
You obviously had a balanced home life and got a good education on the cheap, if your parents hadn't been so balanced then you could be wandering around with a black trilby and a bible ;-}
Cheap parochial schools? Not my experience; not cheap in the USA anyway, especially when you considered that Catholic parents are also paying the taxes that support the public schools as well as paying tuition to the parish. Perhaps good, but certainly not cheap.
I'm puzzled, if they ain't cheap, then the conflict becomes even more strange, why on earth was this guy sent there? Somebody made a decision to send him there (i'll be careful here as I don't know who) is that what all the bitterness is about? Resent towards whoever sent him to a religious school?
Last line still stands...
You obviously had a balanced home life and got a good education (on the cheap), if your parents hadn't been so balanced then you could be wandering around with a black trilby and a bible ;-}
waarmstrong
21-02-10, 07:37
I think that you are more hung up on this saving-of-souls business than all of the Jesuits that I´ve ever come across, Waarm...
Not at all, since its clear from my posts on the subject that I believe there are no such thing as souls for saving. I simply find in curious, your characterization of Jesuits as blasé about their teaching -- encouraging pupils to think for themselves -- leading to a loose of faith.
waarmstrong
21-02-10, 07:54
I'm puzzled, if they ain't cheap, then the conflict becomes even more strange, why on earth was this guy sent there? Somebody made a decision to send him there (i'll be careful here as I don't know who) is that what all the bitterness is about? Resent towards whoever sent him to a religious school?
Last line still stands...
You obviously had a balanced home life and got a good education (on the cheap), if your parents hadn't been so balanced then you could be wandering around with a black trilby and a bible ;-}
No bitterness or resentment at all. I was merely pointing out that the economic focus of your comment is fallacious. Catholic schools are not cheap. You last line really does not stand.
There are many reason parents choose to bear the added cost, other than grooming a child for the priesthood or even to become a devout member of the faithful. I suppose there are many parents who have those expectations, but another common reason is that parochial schools are the best available. Incidentally, my experience is that Catholic schools are not so much "religious schools" as you characterize them, but simply schools that include classes in Catholicism within their curriculum.
No, not you, I should have been more careful in quoting. Our friend however is the epitome of bitterness and resentment.
Actually if you read over what you just wrote, could it be that parents in Indo also happen to see the school as simply a school that includes classes in Islam within their curriculum too?
I did have a chat with someone regarding this and they said that at the "muslim" school that they went to, there were a number of christian and buddhists, they were accommodated elsewhere during the weekly Muslim RI. Not too heavy really. Sounds like the same thing, people are actually choosing these schools...
Hombre de Maiz
21-02-10, 11:43
When I was a boy in Latin America, I showed academic promise early on, and was sent to the best school grammar/elementary school in the country. Lo and behold, it happened to be a Jesuit school, but it was not cheap. Religion and cost did not figure in my mother´s calculus. Quality of education was. When I lived in New York City, the Jesuit tradition which had served me so well that I skipped two grades--I never attended fifth or sixth grade--when making the move from Latin America to NYC stuck. With very few exceptions (Stuyvesant, Bronx Science) public schools in New York City in the 80s were not good. The natural reaction was to turn to Jesuit schools. I passed the entrance exam with flying colors. I ended up graduating from one among the top three Jesuit college preparatory high schools in New York City. Those schools were not cheap either, but they were good. How good? I was accepted into an Ivy League university.
Does this solve the apparently intractable zero-sum connondrum in your little head, Momma?
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