View Full Version : Sharia law in Malaysia.
Note1: Apostasy in Malaysia for muslims is mere impossible and sentences of jail (http://www.littlespeck.com/region/CForeign-My-041228.htm) have been pronounced for those found guilty of this crime.
Note2: A few of our political parties in Indonesia are advocating the implementation of Sharia law in Indonesia. Hopefully, here, the right to be apostate is safeguarded.
Note3: It happens in our neighbouring country, in a country I haven't choosen to live in. NOT, or not yet, in Indonesia. Thus, if one is unhappy with the point brought here, one should save me the fallacious argument that I "don't like Indonesia" or that the french where beheading opposants 200 years ago during the French Revolution or tortured and slaughtered fellaghas 50 years ago in the decolonization process in North Africa.
The argument to be discussed here would be more the right of an individual to freely choose or leave a religion and/or the wisdomness of sharia law.
Article written by Sean Yoong, Associated Press, KL. Published by The Jakarta Post.
Caning of Malaysian woman who drank beer postponed
The first woman in Muslim-majority Malaysia to face caning for drinking beer was reprieved Monday because of the holy month of Ramadan. Her family said she would rather get the thrashing with a rattan cane now and put the ordeal behind her.
Islamic officials had taken Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno, a 32-year-old mother of two, into custody and were driving her to a women's prison for the caning when they abruptly turned around and sent her back to her family home in northern Malaysia.
"She feels like a football being kicked around," Kartika's father, Shukarno Abdul Muttalib, told The Associated Press. "She's so exhausted and unhappy with the delay. She would prefer to just receive the six strokes and have everything finished."
Amnesty International, Malaysian lawyers and some politicians have condemned the sentence, while other critics have warned it would tarnish Malaysia's image as a moderate country. Islamic officials have defended it as necessary to uphold Islamic values - underscoring tensions between religious conservatives and more liberal and secular elements in society.
Beer, wine and liquor is widely available at shops, bars and restaurants in Malaysia, unlike in more austere Islamic nations such as Iran and Pakistan. Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and other minorities in Malaysia are free to consume alcohol but its Shariah law forbids Muslims - who make up 60 percent of the 27 million population - from drinking, although a minority of Muslims still indulge despite the religious stricture.
Islamic morality police - enforcement officials of the Islamic Religious Department - arrested Kartika in a raid for drinking beer at a hotel lounge at a beach resort in Cherating in Pahang state in December 2007. Kartika was sentenced to six lashes of a rattan cane by the Shariah court last month in what was considered a warning to other Muslims to abide by religious rules.
Islamic law provides for a three-year prison term and caning for Muslims caught drinking. Most previous offenders were fined and no woman has ever been caned.
The morality police are not a pervasive force in Malaysia, and most citizens were surprised at the verdict against Kartika.
Mohamad Sahfri Abdul Aziz, a state legislator in charge of religious affairs, said Monday the Attorney General's office advised that Kartika's caning should be delayed for compassionate reasons until after the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan, which began Saturday.
"The sentence is not being canceled," Mohamad Sahfri said, without specifying exactly when it would be carried out.
In an interview with the AP last week, Kartika said she regretted drinking and was even willing to be caned in public in order to send a clear message to other Muslims to avoid alcohol. Authorities said the caning had to be done at a prison.
Government officials have remained silent on the issue even though the local media have reported on it extensively. The only prominent personality to comment has been former Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad.
On Monday, he urged authorities to check Islamic teachings to determine whether it would be appropriate to cane Kartika for drinking.
"Is it possible that a judge may have been unfair or mistaken in his consideration? Is there no room in Islam for mercy toward those who commit an error for the first time?" Mahathir wrote on his widely read blog.
Chandra Muzaffar, president of the Malaysian think tank, International Movement for a Just World, said the international attention on Kartika's case could "provide ammunition" for some people to criticize Malaysia's capacity for religious tolerance.
"She should not be caned in the first place," Chandra said. "What we should do is advise her. This punitive psychology is a bane for Muslim societies, and we should get away from it."
Islamic officials had insisted that the caning's purpose is to educate rather than punish. They say the rattan cane supposed to be used on Kartika would be smaller and lighter than the one used for men, and that she will remain clothed.
Men convicted of crimes such as rape and bribery in Malaysia are caned on their bare buttocks, breaking the skin and leaving permanent scars.
Rattan canes used in the punishment are made from palm plants common in tropical parts of Asia. They have been used for decades for corporal punishments in countries such as Malaysi, Singapore and Brunei.
Separately Monday, officials in the central state of Selangor near Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia's largest city, stepped up efforts to deter drinking by empowering mosque officials to arrest Muslims who consume liquor in public places, The Star newspaper's Web site quoted state lawmaker Hssan Ali as saying.
Apostasy is, I'm informed, a sin. Personally I think that if someone has no faith, it's up to them. There are are few here, in my village, that have no interest in Islam. They never go to mosque and never take part in any religious events. A few are openly eating at the moment.
No one bothers them at all. Their birth makes them Muslims but, as long as they don't cause any trouble for anyone else or tell us we are foolish for believing, they are just left to their thoughts and are still welcomed as friends and neighbours.
Seems fine to me.
The caning does not seem fine to me. I have no objection to a rapist being caned. A lot of serious pain and scaring is what they do to their victims so I see it as OK. In the case of this woman I don't believe it's good news at all.
Firstly, I'm a bit sexist and don't believe it's reasonable to physically harm a woman except under the most extreme of circumstances.
I, sadly and to my regret, was once forced to do that.
Secondly, While I do believe it's seriously naughty for a Muslim to drink, I also believe it's a matter of choice. It's a wrong choice and one that deserves correction and perhaps a fine or, even better, enforced work to help the local community.
When it comes to the point their drinking causes a problem for others, then it's time to get a little harsher. When I first arrived here I witnessed an accident. It was a chinese bloke who was smashed out of his brain. He hit two lasses on a bike with his car. If he had taken a few lashes for that, I would have no objection regardless of his faith or lack of it.
"Secondly, While I do believe it's seriously naughty for a Muslim to drink, I also believe it's a matter of choice. It's a wrong choice and one that deserves correction and perhaps a fine or, even better, enforced work to help the local community."
For something to be a "matter of choice", it has to be free of punishment.
Is not praying every day a wrong choice and should that be corrected forcibly too? How about not giving alms? Not fasting? Not going to Mecca if one is able? These are all wrong choices aren't they? What would the fine or enforced work for these be? Who determines and who enforces it? Better yet is it any more anothers business than anyones business as to what one believes? After all nobody wants to hear if their beliefs are shite or not, let alone be punished for them.
Googling Apostasy I found this in Wikpedia:
The four major Sunni Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) all agree that apostasy is a sin as long as the individual does not do so in ignorance or under duress[1][2]. They also differentiate between harmful apostasy and harmless apostasy[3] (also known as major and minor apostasy)[1]. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an,[4].
Some Islamic jurists, such as Hanafi jurist Sarakhsi,[5] Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji, and Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah,[6] and some contemporary Islamic jurists, such as Shafi`i Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa[7][8] and Shi'a Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri,[9] argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances[10][11][12][13] Some groups within Islam such as the Shi'a Ismaili reject death for apostasy altogether.
If the punishment for sins is supposed to be made by God after ones death, why is it that man feels it is his place to do the punishing. Afterall we all die and will get ours at that time? I wonder if God looks at the punishers as sinners and will punish them when their time on earth ends.
Also its funny that some sins are considered less sinful than others. Isn't sin sin? Does God have a chart he goes by that awards and subtracts each sin and good deed then have a magic number one must attain to enter heaven? How many minor sins am I allowed and still be able to get into heaven?
"Secondly, While I do believe it's seriously naughty for a Muslim to drink, I also believe it's a matter of choice. It's a wrong choice and one that deserves correction and perhaps a fine or, even better, enforced work to help the local community."
For something to be a "matter of choice", it has to be free of punishment.
We all make choices. For a practising Muslim, it's a wrong choice.
The Chinese bloke had the choice to leave his car and walk. He also made a bad choice and will, I'm sure, have had a long time in the nick to consider it.
waarmstrong
25-08-09, 13:08
Drinking is a sin for Muslims and many Christian sects, as well. Driving drunk is a crime for everybody. God should punish the former and the civil authorities the latter.
In fairness to Malaysia the sharia ordinances that have been issued so far apply to Muslims only. I take the point that if you are a Muslim in Malaysia then you are stuck with it, but so far as I'm aware sharia law and associated punishments have never been imposed on non-Muslims in Malaysia. Recently in a state controlled by the Islamic party PAS an attempt was made (Indonesia style) to ban sales of alcohol in corner shops in a 'majority Muslim area' but that was declared discriminatory and kicked out.
Contrast this position to that of our own beloved PKS who have sought to apply Sharia-based bylaws to all residents irrespective of religious denomination.
Rushing Doll
25-08-09, 13:31
The caning does not seem fine to me. I have no objection to a rapist being caned. A lot of serious pain and scaring is what they do to their victims so I see it as OK. In the case of this woman I don't believe it's good news at all.
Firstly, I'm a bit sexist and don't believe it's reasonable to physically harm a woman except under the most extreme of circumstances.
I, sadly and to my regret, was once forced to do that.
I am hoping the crime you have used here as an example worthy for caning was just a mistake and not a very well thought through one?:frown2:
I am hoping the crime you have used here as an example worthy for caning was just a mistake and not a very well thought through one?:frown2:
It was mentioned in the OP as another offence that had caning as a punishment. I once knew a lass that had been raped some years ago. She was still a state after all that time. If her attacker had taken a beating, I would not have tried to help him.
Just as well those of the Catholic Faith who sin are not caned, the many Indonesian female Catholics who take the Oral Contraceptive Pill would then be in serious trouble...
btw what is the Islamist position on contraception?
btw what is the Islamist position on contraception?
Family planning and contraception is a western conspiracy. If you don't believe me see http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/07/27/population-control-%E2%80%98a-weapon-west%E2%80%99.html
Just as well those of the Catholic Faith who sin are not caned, the many Indonesian female Catholics who take the Oral Contraceptive Pill would then be in serious trouble...
btw what is the Islamist position on contraception?
I would go with Muslim's ideas on it. :)
No ban at all except for a few more radical thinkers.
Here in Indonesia it's easily available for married women.
I would have to research to confirm this but, I believe, it was Muslims that introduced it to the west.
The catholic church is more a problem in that area.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7947460.stm
Of course the AIDS problem is far less in Islamic regions. :)
Family planning and contraception is a western conspiracy. If you don't believe me see http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/07/27/population-control-%E2%80%98a-weapon-west%E2%80%99.html
speakers at the conference titled, “Young Muslims, save Indonesia with Sharia and the Caliphate”
Sounds a tad more radical than most Muslims here. :)
In fairness to Malaysia the sharia ordinances that have been issued so far apply to Muslims only. I take the point that if you are a Muslim in Malaysia then you are stuck with it, but so far as I'm aware sharia law and associated punishments have never been imposed on non-Muslims in Malaysia.
This is correct. Sharia law is valid and apply only to the 60% of muslims that populate the country. It is why I brought the second issue of apostasy which is not discussed in the article I've pasted. If one belongs by birth to the malayu ethnic group one is de facto, by birth, a muslim and have no chance to get away from the harsh punishment that go with the sharia and one can not escape the coercion.
Hombre de Maiz
25-08-09, 19:27
Don't forget Aceh closer to home. Sharia is in effect there. Reports of khalwat are not uncommon in the Aceh newspapers. Conversions to Islam are also front-page stories. I wonder whether they'd accord apostasy similar coverage. In this case, we have a very clear case of journalism at the service of the (Islamic) state.
http://www.kaoskumel.com/img/p/15-48-thickbox.jpg
But let's leave religion and state ideology aside, let's look at outcomes and how well countries do in terms of human welfare. After all, what is (or should be) paramount is human welfare. From this optic, no Islamic country is in the top 25 of the UNDP Human Developement Index. As several Muslims themselves have admitted, there is no question that at the individual, personal level Muslim piety and devotion continues to be very strong. As for articulating and enacting modern states and governments, Muslims so far have failed utterly. A reflection of the current intellectual bankruptcy is the knee-jerk anti-West rhetoric and the knee-jerk appeal to the Islamic state. In many cases, the Islamic state is an atavism.
But let's leave religion and state ideology aside, let's look at outcomes and how well countries do in terms of human welfare. After all, what is (or should be) paramount is human welfare. From this optic, no Islamic country is in the top 25 of the UNDP Human Developement Index. As several Muslims themselves have admitted, there is no question that at the individual, personal level Muslim piety and devotion continues to be very strong. As for articulating and enacting modern states and governments, Muslims so far have failed utterly. A reflection of the current intellectual bankruptcy is the knee-jerk anti-West rhetoric and the knee-jerk appeal to the Islamic state.
Of course that could be seen as anti Muslim rhetoric given that you neglect to mention non Muslim states in the same catagory.
Each year since 1990 the Human Development Report Office has published the human development index (HDI) which looks beyond GDP to a broader definition of well-being. The HDI provides a composite measure of three dimensions of human development: living a long and healthy life (measured by life expectancy), being educated (measured by adult literacy and enrolment at the primary, secondary and tertiary level) and having a decent standard of living (measured by purchasing power parity, PPP, income). The index is not in any sense a comprehensive measure of human development. It does not, for example, include important indicators such as gender or income inequality and more difficult to measure indicators like respect for human rights and political freedoms. What it does provide is a broadened prism for viewing human progress and the complex relationship between income and well-being.
What they also neglect to consider is a 'happiness' index (if you can measure that). People here tend to be happy with their lot in life. They don't have the greed so common in many western countries like the UK.
They don't have a fear of crime or the debt that is so normal in the west.
I wonder if that makes a difference to the quality of life. :)
Hombre de Maiz
25-08-09, 20:12
Well, save for the Vatican (Catholicism) and the UK (Church of England) I can't think of other countries where Christianity is the explicit and lawful basis of the state. But we digress because the unit of analysis here was the Islamic state, not the religious state, not the secular state, not the multi-confessional state, not the Buddhist state, not the Druid state, not the Jewish state etc. So what if, for example, the Hindu state has also failed?
Yes, the UNDP Human Development Index fails to take into account subjective indicators of happiness because those can be culturally specific. The UNDP HDI is based on things that we can measure and things that we are fundamental to human development throughout the world: income, education and health.
waarmstrong
25-08-09, 20:26
Unless you mean by "the people here," the people you have contact with in your kompung, perhaps its a bit presumptuous to speak on behalf of the diverse collection of the peoples that make up Indonesia.
On the question of Indonesia's place on the greed scale, let us not forget that the country is repeatedly ranked among the most corrupt. My personal anecdotal experience is that it is a common failing here abouts, as common as other places I have lived. Take for example the recent property rant thread or any one of a number of threads on dealing with the bureaucracy.
What they also neglect to consider is a 'happiness' index (if you can measure that). People here tend to be happy with their lot in life. They don't have the greed so common in many western countries like the UK.
They don't have a fear of crime or the debt that is so normal in the west. I wonder if that makes a difference to the quality of life. :)
I am afraid it has nothing or little to do with religion, be it islam or christian.
If you think that Islam is the reason, let me give you the example of my province, SulUt. It is predominantly Christian (about 75%), economically dynamic, doing much better than Jawa or Sumatra for example, with no kids nor beggars in the street and has nothing to envy in term of happiness of its people.
Unless you mean by "the people here," the people you have contact with in your kompung, perhaps its a bit presumptuous to speak on behalf of the diverse collection of the peoples that make up Indonesia.
On the question of Indonesia's place on the greed scale, let us not forget that the country is repeatedly ranked among the most corrupt. My personal anecdotal experience is that it is a common failing here abouts, as common as other places I have lived. Take for example the recent property rant thread or any one of a number of threads on dealing with the bureaucracy.
Off thread, my partner is in the supermarket , the Health Inspectors are checking the Ayam and take a Kilo for a sample, to be tested presumably, the other one says to her, why only one kilo, take two and we can cook one up for breaking fast...they then realise my partner was watching and listening, ...very, very red faces!
checking the Ayam and take a Kilo for a sample, to be tested presumably,
Testing... tasting... these are details for them, mate.:)
Unless you mean by "the people here," the people you have contact with in your kompung, perhaps its a bit presumptuous to speak on behalf of the diverse collection of the peoples that make up Indonesia.
I mean the area I live in as I know it and the people well. Income relative to costs may be low but people are, in general, happier with their lot in life that in the area of the UK I hail from. The UK may be well above Indonesia in that list but the population of my area in the former are far less happy with the life they live. The UK is no longer a religious country. It may officially be C of E but the churches are far from full.
I am afraid it has nothing or little to do with religion, be it islam or christian.
.
I believe religion can help in an attitude sense but it's greed that's the killer. The moment you want more than you are able to earn, you are knackered. That's where the UK has cocked up. It's all about that new large screen TV and stereo. The new 4X4 in the drive and moaning about the cost of fuel to keep it moving. I saw so many people trying to buy massive, new build houses at daft prices to make them happy. All it did was give them a massive hole in their bank accounts and, with the crash, a pile of bricks that was worth less than their mortgage.
The sub prime in the US suggests a similar situation may exist there but I would have to take advice from American posters on that one.
On the question of Indonesia's place on the greed scale, let us not forget that the country is repeatedly ranked among the most corrupt. My personal anecdotal experience is that it is a common failing here abouts, as common as other places I have lived. Take for example the recent property rant thread or any one of a number of threads on dealing with the bureaucracy.
Corruption is a large problem here but one that, thankfully, I have little problem with now.
(deleted by Atlantis)
I can't anyway. :)
Just noticed this little scam a moment ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/8221512.stm
Another reason for me to consider how much I have a pop at Indonesia without a bit of careful thought as to the bent sods in my own country.
It's all about that new large screen TV and stereo. The new 4X4 in the drive and moaning about the cost of fuel to keep it moving.
Sadly that could equally be said of my neighbours here. Wonosobo dan sekitarnya is not exactly representative of social conditions and aspirations throughout Indonesia.
Sadly that could equally be said of my neighbours here. Wonosobo dan sekitarnya is not exactly representative of social conditions and aspirations throughout Indonesia.
Wonosobo has a good mix of people from those driving about in BMWs to those that can't afford a knackered pushbike.
It can't be compared to the big cities.
The UK may be well above Indonesia in that list but the population of my area in the former are far less happy with the life they live. The UK is no longer a religious country. It may officially be C of E but the churches are far from full.
Do you want to tell us that you see a relation in between "importance of the religion among the population" and "economical development" ? Something like less praying more industry then?
Do you want to tell us that you see a relation in between "importance of the religion among the population" and "economical development" ? Something like less praying more industry then?
I don't believe the two are related. It was mentioned that the UK is a Christian country. I replied that it was, but only in name.
The lack of religion may well be a factor in happiness as immoral behaviour has added to many of the UK's problems.
waarmstrong
26-08-09, 13:21
... rape of their mothers...
Ah yes, the Great Satan strikes again. Your hollow rhetoric is indeed offensive. Similar mongering rants are used by Abu Bakar Bashirs to whip up the faithful and prime those who would murder innocents based simply on their country of origin.
puterapanas
26-08-09, 13:34
In fairness to Malaysia the sharia ordinances that have been issued so far apply to Muslims only. .
I beg to differ.
1. Hindus are forcibly made muslims (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzxAQa4-0nA) and are sent to an Islamic rehabilitation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK_tks1T3jg) centre.
2. Children of non-muslim parents are forcibly converted to muslims (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KloYQ8Mh2PA) should one parent convert to Islam.
3. Non-muslims are not allowed to used terminologies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsC6xfvE9Dg) like Assalamualaikum or Allah
4. Non-muslims are not allowed to discuss about Islam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVhZetxTjZE) with muslim scholars in an open forum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbC7hZJrp3I).
5. No action is taken against an Islamic based magazine for desicrating a christian ritual (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4VO2FhiwOA) and worship.
6. If a non-muslim is caught drinking or in close proximity with a muslim, what's to prevent the religious authorities from detaining the non-muslim to 'assist' in investigations?
7. What about the arrest of a non-muslim lawyer (http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/malaysia/36081-apostasy-kidnapping-case-remand-order-on-lawyer-valid) for not revealing the whereabouts of his apostate client?
Hence in Malaysia, laws are only applied on the weak, helpless, the opposition and the general public. The elite class is untouchable.
Malaysia Boleh!
Wonosobo....
It can't be compared to the big cities.
But a lot of people do live in the big cities and mega-urban areas - 41% of them according to the 2000 national census. I'm sorry but you can't easily extrapolate what you experience from small-town central Java to the whole archipelago.
it's makes us all a little less able to comment on problems in Indonesia without reflecting on our own county's shortcomings.
Sorry to say, Fred, but your posts are often the same. IMHO, you often fail to answer to the objections raised by other posters. In itself it does not bother me. What irks me a bit is that you often hide behind the same old anti american rant. I sometimes wonder if you really fail to realise it or if you just act this way to provocate some of the users here in reaction to post that you disagree with. Amazingly, I don't remenber having read any post from you when an Indonesian user is criticising his/her country:
ex: http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php?p=36903#post36970 (post#29 - Thumbs up to her by the way. A lot of courage, and yes, I agree, there is still many reasons to be proud of Indonesia). Where are you when this comments are posted on the board? Why don't you raise any objections and tell to this poster something conforting such as "No worries sista', the US & UK are the same/worst". I am sure that if she ever went abroad, she would find that your sense of humour is rather cynical.
Your recent answer to Waarmstrong has revolved again around this anti-american leitmotiv without answering to the issues raised. Waarmstrong was talking about corruption and greed in Indonesia. You answer him by secret prison, torture etc... Where is the link?
Why one sould refrain to comment on problems in Indonesia just because corruption exits also in other countries? It makes absolutely no sense.
The Perception of Corruption Index published annually by Transparency International (http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2008) ranks the countries from the less corrupted (CPI score of 10)to the most corrupted (CPI score of 0).
Here is an excerpt of the ranking:
4. Singapore with a CPI score of 9,2
9. Australia with a CPI score of 8,7
16. United Kingdom with a CPI score of 7,7
18. U.S. of A. with a CPI score of 7,3
23. France with a CPI score of 6,9
47. Malaysia with a CPI score of 5,1
80. Thailand with a CPI score of 3,5
126. Indonesia with a CPI score 2,6
I believe you can measure yourself the gap that exists in between all this nations. OK... The guys didn't make it to Wonosobo to interview you, but still I believe that they have done a serious survey and a decent job.
I have removed the anti US bit from your post by the way... and remind you that we don't condone this kind of anti (name the country/race) rant.
Salam.
Hombre de Maiz
26-08-09, 15:47
Maybe he should open a Pesantren...
Thanks not to fuel it up hombre. Stick to the ball. You don't need to go for the man.
Addit: Thanks for the self editing of your post.:clap2:
Ah yes, the Great Satan strikes again. Your hollow rhetoric is indeed offensive. Similar mongering rants are used by Abu Bakar Bashirs to whip up the faithful and prime those who would murder innocents based simply on their country of origin.
Just a link to allegations made by others. The rape is probably a load of old cods anyway. Most, but not all of those type of accusations tend to be. There were similar charges made against British troops in Africa but it all turned out to be prostitutes seeing a few quid. That tallies with what I was told by old soldiers several years earlier and long before these things came out.
Sorry to say, Fred, but your posts are often the same. IMHO, you often fail to answer to the objections raised by other posters.
I have removed the anti US bit from your post by the way... and remind you that we don't condone this kind of anti (name the country/race) rant.
Salam.
You also removed the anti British bit. I can be forgiven (I hope) for an anti British politician rant as I'm British. Please note the the Americans on here. I'm not anti American or any bugger else but both you and I are hardly in any position to talk about Malaysian problems (or Indonesian ones) when we have done so much of the same ourselves.
I would argue with anyone that tries to tell me Blair is anything but a corrupt git.
Back to Malaysia. They still have a lot of law that only applies to Muslims and seems to be harsh. That goes for the whipping of this woman. I really hope they let it go and give her a more reasonable punishment.
I'll still stick to the 'when in Rome' bit. I may be off to KL in a few weeks and, as a visitor, I'll respect local law.
I'm a boring goody two shoes now anyway with no drinking, and no fornication so no worries for me.
Note2: A few of our political parties in Indonesia are advocating the implementation of Sharia law in Indonesia. Hopefully, here, the right to be apostate is safeguarded. .
I understand the groups suggesting this are minor parties who gained a very small share of the vote in the recent elections.
Sharia law would be bad news for this country. It's way too harsh and it's advocates tend to be very insular in political attitudes.
It would put Indonesia back many years/
Hombre de Maiz
26-08-09, 16:44
Visit Penang. For me, it's the most interesting place in Peninsular Malaysia.
Visit Penang. For me, it's the most interesting place in Peninsular Malaysia.
I spent a few days in Georgetown and was not that impressed but I never had chance to see more. I'm told the rest of the Island is far better.
I understand the groups suggesting this are minor parties who gained a very small share of the vote in the recent elections.
Sharia law would be bad news for this country. It's way too harsh and it's advocates tend to be very insular in political attitudes.
It would put Indonesia back many years/
As you may know, a partial version of the hukum syariah has already been introduced in Aceh with physical punishment for those who are convicted of gambling, drinking, adultery or for those who are not praying 3 (?) times on Fridays... this introduction was part of an autonomy deal conceded by Jakarta in order to bring peace to the province. Since 2004, the sharia has been strictly enforced in Aceh.
Nationwide, the strongest advocate for the implementation of hukum syariah is certainly the Partai Bulan Bintang which managed to win 11 seats in 2004 DPR' assembly (out of 550). Though officially the Partai Keadilan Sejaterah don't promote the mandatory implementation of sharia, requiring Indonesia's muslim to follow islamic law, some of its leaders have said that they will not implement Shariah "strictly" if elected. PKS is a major component of SBY's coalition and gathered a bit more than 8% in the April election.
Though in minority, advocates of the sharia law can not be ignored.
I however don't believe that there is a great motivation for it in the very large majority of Indonesian muslims. Politics may from time to time wave the perspective of it to look appealing to hardliners, but it remains a political promise. Hopefully.
waarmstrong
26-08-09, 18:00
Atlantis, you may want to check out Julia Suryahusuma's column on the Opinion page of today's Post. She is making the point that the Syariah code in Aceh was a construct of the New Order gang trying to draw a wedge between the Muslim leadership of the province and GAM. Now according to Julia, the political picture with former GAM leaders taking the helm is shifting to a more secular provincial government with the blessing of a majority of Acehans. While Aceh may be more devout in their religious practices, seems they are fairly moderate, politically. I am taking her view as an encouraging interpretation of events.
Though officially the Partai Keadilan Sejaterah don't promote the mandatory implementation of sharia, requiring Indonesia's muslim to follow islamic law, some of its leaders have said that they will not implement Shariah "strictly" if elected.
The PKS will shift its political stance like sand dunes in the wind in order to maximise its grasp on power. That is the raison d'etre of the PKS which has always been devoted to destroying the Republic from within, using the democratic process to build a power base from which to dismantle the democratic process itself. They long for an Islamic caliphate and follow the methods of the Muslim Brotherhood who have abandoned violent revolution in favour of the ballot box - for the time being.
When you think of it, plenty of totalitarian regimes have emerged through the democratic process before morphing into entirely undemocratic states or family dynasties. From utter despots like Hitler through tyrants like Mugabe to rather more benign strongmen like Lee Kuan Yew, they've all done it rather succesfully.
Visit Penang. For me, it's the most interesting place in Peninsular Malaysia.
The most interesting place for me was lenggong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenggong), Perak. I have some Chinese friends in a village up there and would love to visit again.
This looks like good news.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8220369.stm
A Malaysian court has reportedly ordered a review of the caning sentence given to a woman caught drinking beer.
The main judge at Pahang's Islamic court put the caning on hold pending the review, saying the sentence was "too extreme", the Star newspaper said.
When a case becomes public and tarnish the image of a country, there is often someone to organise a review of the case. We had an example here with Prita's case for example. A review doesn't mean a drop of the case and doesn't mean that it will put a stop to the sharia inhumane and feodal type of punishments.
To me, it ain't a good news but a diplomatic move.
When a case becomes public and tarnish the image of a country, there is often someone to organise a review of the case. We had an example here with Prita's case for example. A review doesn't mean a drop of the case and doesn't mean that it will put a stop to the sharia inhumane and feodal type of punishments.
To me, it ain't a good news but a diplomatic move.
I think it's a bit of both. It's clear Malaysia was being made to look bad and the government will be aware of that but, at the same time, she would have been the first woman to be caned so maybe it's also a change of heart.
Agreed Atlantis. Am I losing it and Fred has answered to these points here or in another thread? If I'm not I have marked the key points as I see it in bold. How about it Fred?
"Sorry to say, Fred, but your posts are often the same. IMHO, you often fail to answer to the objections raised by other posters. In itself it does not bother me. What irks me a bit is that you often hide behind the same old anti american rant. I sometimes wonder if you really fail to realise it or if you just act this way to provocate some of the users here in reaction to post that you disagree with. Amazingly, I don't remenber having read any post from you when an Indonesian user is criticising his/her country:
ex: http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...6903#post36970 (http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php?p=36903#post36970) (post#29 - Thumbs up to her by the way. A lot of courage, and yes, I agree, there is still many reasons to be proud of Indonesia). Where are you when this comments are posted on the board? Why don't you raise any objections and tell to this poster something conforting such as "No worries sista', the US & UK are the same/worst". I am sure that if she ever went abroad, she would find that your sense of humour is rather cynical.
Your recent answer to Waarmstrong has revolved again around this anti-american leitmotiv without answering to the issues raised. Waarmstrong was talking about corruption and greed in Indonesia. You answer him by secret prison, torture etc... Where is the link?
Why one sould refrain to comment on problems in Indonesia just because corruption exits also in other countries? It makes absolutely no sense.
Appararently the sentence has been confirmed...
Bah... let's think positive... the lass has had time for a couple more beers in between the sentence and its execution. That is a good news...:tea:
http://thejakartaglobe.com/home/caning-sentence-upheld-for-beer-drinking-model-in-malaysia/332425
Bugger all good news there. I may be muslim but im also a gentleman and that precludes the possibility of hurting a lady. No way can this be right in my mind. Far too extreme for my tastes.
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