View Full Version : "Asian values": the case of the smokey non-smoking section
Yes, you know the scenario. You choose a table in the non-smoking section in a restaurant only to find that your next-table neighbors are smoking up a storm without a care in the world. You bring it to the attention of your waiter, and no action taken. You bring it to the attention of the restaurant manager, and again no action taken.
Getting along and avoiding confrontation trumps following the rules and agreed conventions. Is it any wonder, is it really surprising, then, that compliance with the law is so lax when individuals are not willing to respect the smallest social rules in the most routine and trivial of interactions?
Are these the "Asian values" that I must respect and embrace? Are these the values that encourage a fair and law-abiding society?
stt_cibubur
16-03-09, 13:10
I know the feeling..really annoying. I HATE Cigarette!! I can't breeth when someone next to me is smoking. WHy not just make a rule " Only allowed to smoke in your own house!"..that'll be great!
The point is that if such a rule ("smoking only allowed at home") were enacted it would, in Indonesia, be a dead-letter rule since people would, in the interest of laziness or avoiding the slightest inconvenience, rather violate it rather than observe it. The point is less about smoking and more about the underlying values or attitudes, which can and do extend to other practices.
Yes, you know the scenario. You choose a table in the non-smoking section in a restaurant only to find that your next-table neighbors are smoking up a storm without a care in the world. You bring it to the attention of your waiter, and no action taken. You bring it to the attention of the restaurant manager, and again no action taken.
Getting along and avoiding confrontation trumps following the rules and agreed conventions. Is it any wonder, is it really surprising, then, that compliance with the law is so lax when individuals are not willing to respect the smallest social rules in the most routine and trivial of interactions?
Are these the "Asian values" that I must respect and embrace? Are these the values that encourage a fair and law-abiding society?
Wether it is about Asian values or not, in my opinion. Most smokers are selfish. I met smokers anywhere, they smoke anywhere they like, even if there are many no smoking signs, even there are some mothers with their babies around, the smokers keep smoking and they get angry if they re reminded.
Here in Japan, almost everyday, I see a driver in front of me throwing the cigarrette out of the car without putting it off first.
Smokers are scared of one thing, a penalty . When there is a penalty (like in Singapore), they try not to smoke in front of officers.
Im fighting a continuing battle with workers in my building who smoke in the stairwells.
Hell they even have ash trays in there - well done building management for being useless as fuck!
stt_cibubur
16-03-09, 17:56
If I were you, I'll kick the ashtray or remove it when they are not there...LOL. My home and my office is 100% no smoking area... I dont care who, I will not let anyone smoke inside my house or in my office!.. no choice..I had to be little bit tough.
Thailand banned smoking in closed bars some time ago. I was pretty amazed that they could pull it off, so it is not *impossible* for Indonesia to follow suit with where the rest of the world is heading. China made at least a feeble attempt at banning smoking in restaurants.
Oops! I am guilty of having ashtray breath...but I do ask if it's okay for me to smoke when I'm next to someone who is not a smoker. Guys who I met at the party esp the guys/girls I was sitting next to (mauricio, ash, tim, lis and alia), was it really okay for you if I smoked or you were just being nice? I would have gladly put it off if you told me not to. Sorry!
stt_cibubur
16-03-09, 20:00
Well..I was sitting in opposite site of you Maria...so, I didn't get the smokes... You'll know if the smokes get in to me, coz I'll have the difficulty to breeth..I had history of Asthma.
Oops! I am guilty of having ashtray breath...but I do ask if it's okay for me to smoke when I'm next to someone who is not a smoker. Guys who I met at the party esp the guys/girls I was sitting next to (mauricio, ash, tim, lis and alia), was it really okay for you if I smoked or you were just being nice? I would have gladly put it off if you told me not to. Sorry!
Don't you just hate it when you try to be sensitive to your friends and then later you find them publicly moaning, groaning and complaining about you on an Expat forum ;}
Dave the smoker :}
I don't think they were referring to me, but I will keep it in mind to be more sensitive towards others next time, probably just take my smoke outside if the most of the company doesn't smoke. But if I'm a bar, I will have to smoke, unless I drink my beers outside the whole night.
I don't think they were referring to me, but I will keep it in mind to be more sensitive towards others next time, probably just take my smoke outside if the most of the company doesn't smoke. But if I'm a bar, I will have to smoke, unless I drink my beers outside the whole night.
Oh dear me...
Maria I'm sure they weren't referring to you either, I was just joking whilst making the point that people are not always honest.
I had the occasion on Sat when I asked the same question of someone and the reply was, "well, I think it should be ok...we are outside after all'.. {emphasis on think and should]..I asked again specificaly stating, 'it's fine by me, really, I can go out the back as I don't want to impose my habits on others'..again the same reply from the husband of a long time friend.....
so I took that as a clear NO, but disguised as a yes, and went to the garden and indulged there!
You were already sensitive to their needs, it's up to them to be honest in their reply especially if they are friends!!
ps..does being in a bar negate the need for sensitivity to others?
No, this thread was not about that scenario, but now that we are talking about my feelings are as follows: you shouldn't put me in a situation where I ask you not to do something.
Oh dear me...
Maria I'm sure they weren't referring to you either, I was just joking whilst making the point that people are not always honest.
I had the occasion on Sat when I asked the same question of someone and the reply was, "well, I think it should be ok...we are outside after all'.. {emphasis on think and should]..I asked again specificaly stating, 'it's fine by me, really, I can go out the back as I don't want to impose my habits on others'..again the same reply from the husband of a long time friend.....
so I took that as a clear NO, but disguised as a yes, and went to the garden and indulged there!
Hahaha! I will be sure to be more observant next time so as not to offend anyone. I mean, I think smoking is NOT good at all, and I wouldn't want anyone to be uncomfortable that is why I ask. I wish to quit but it is like telling me to quit drinking, start exercising... I hope I don't wait for a health scare before I wake up to my senses.
No, this thread was not about that scenario, but now that we are talking about my feelings are as follows: you shouldn't put me in a situation where I ask you not to do something.
I will keep it in mind!
No, this thread was not about that scenario, but now that we are talking about my feelings are as follows: you shouldn't put me in a situation where I ask you not to do something.
I generally agree with your statement mite, however was that clearly stated prior to the occasion, or your position on smoking well known by Maria and any other smokers in attendance?
Also, where was this social occasion held, my experience of Indonesia is that there are very very few places where dilarang rokok is enforced as you yourself have noted.
So I would pose the question of what was your responsibility in regard to Maria's query 'do you guys mind if I smoke?'
I don't ask you whether you mind if I drink, you shouldn't ask me whether I mind if you smoke.
I don't ask you whether you mind if I drink, you shouldn't ask me whether I mind if you smoke.
Oops spoke too soon :}
too tired tonight mite, I'll try again besok to answer that. :}
I have friends who smokes but they are thoughtful.
I too had a similar experience once in a non smoking area. While I ordered my food and was waiting for it, a couple occupied a table behind me. Until my food arrive everything was fine, half way through the meal cigarette smoke started to choke me. I turned around saw them smoking. I called for the manager, told him that I choose to DINE and PAY for the food because it had a “Non-Smoking Area” and I want it to be non-smoking. Told him I’m going to walk away immediately if he doesn’t make sure that the area is indeed non-smoking. The manager said sorry and stopped them from smoking.
Are these the "Asian values" that I must respect and embrace? Are these the values that encourage a fair and law-abiding society?
Respecting values and local culture doesn't mean that you can not help changing them by helping to educate people. It means, at least to me, that you don't openly criticize them without bringing solutions for an acceptable change.
For some reason that I don't get, you seem to be over-concerned by someone/something forcing you to respect and embrace certain values. :eek:
On a personal note, I agree with many of the values shared by the people I live with and there is some where I disagree.
If I agree to this values, I naturally follow them, teaching it to my kids. If I disagree with anything in the Minahasan culture, I don't oppose frontly to it by respect. But it does not mean that I would let anyone imposing it to me. Religion for example (whatever religion) is part of "indonesian" culture and important to people here. It is not for me. I am not going to church BUT I don't openly criticize those who fill like going there or act like a jerk, shocking the moral values that some praise. This is what I call respecting others value and being a guest. I don't feel that this is my duty to piss off people here, but feel that my duty is more in helping people, giving them jobs if I can, for example, and explaining them that what they do succesfully in their life is not given by god but by themselves only and by the efforts they have put in reaching their goal. Point. I pushes our staff to give education to their kids and for those who has more than a year working with us, we pay or help paying the scholarship of the kids. By educating people or helping to educate them, you contribute to get obscurantism down much better than by just shouting at people "your religion is crap"!
By doing that, I also respect asian values and help myself to be socially integrated.
If I would be so shocked by "asian values", without helping to provide solutions, I would question myself about the reasons I stay here!?
If I am a guest somewhere and be invited to eat, but that there is something I can not eat, should I force myself to eat it? NO. Would it mean that I didn't behave as a nice guest? NO... as long as I didn't shout a loud "you're just a bunch of primitive people, we don't eat this in the Western paradise".
Come on Mauricio, you are smart enough to know that respect doesn't mean blind acceptance and that being a guest doesn't mean being a fool.
Yes, you know the scenario. You choose a table in the non-smoking section in a restaurant only to find that your next-table neighbors are smoking up a storm without a care in the world. You bring it to the attention of your waiter, and no action taken. You bring it to the attention of the restaurant manager, and again no action taken.
On that particular case, Mauricio, I would have politely complain to the waiter and/or the manager. No action taken? I would have take action myself. I for sure have duties/kewajiban but I also have rights/hak. When someone forgets it, and that no-one whose duty is to protect this right is dealing with the problem, I just enforce it myself and those whose responsabilities were to take care of it clean the mess, if there is mess. Respect that I consider owing to people stop when they start to mess with my legal rights.
Poor Atlantis, so worked up that his spelling went out the window
Feel free to correct my spelling Tim... Be ready to waste a lot of time, english is a language I use only in here.:)
Respecting values and local culture doesn't mean that you can not help changing them by helping to educate people. It means, at least to me, that you don't openly criticize them without bringing solutions for an acceptable change.
For some reason that I don't get, you seem to be over-concerned by someone/something forcing you to respect and embrace certain values. :eek:
On a personal note, I agree with many of the values shared by the people I live with and there is some where I disagree.
If I agree to this values, I naturally follow them, teaching it to my kids. If I disagree with anything in the Minahasan culture, I don't oppose frontly to it by respect. But it does not mean that I would let anyone imposing it to me. Religion for example (whatever religion) is part of "indonesian" culture and important to people here. It is not for me. I am not going to church BUT I don't openly criticize those who fill like going there or act like a jerk, shocking the moral values that some praise. This is what I call respecting others value and being a guest. I don't feel that this is my duty to piss off people here, but feel that my duty is more in helping people, giving them jobs if I can, for example, and explaining them that what they do succesfully in their life is not given by god but by themselves only and by the efforts they have put in reaching their goal. Point. I pushes our staff to give education to their kids and for those who has more than a year working with us, we pay or help paying the scholarship of the kids. By educating people or helping to educate them, you contribute to get obscurantism down much better than by just shouting at people "your religion is crap"!
By doing that, I also respect asian values and help myself to be socially integrated.
If I would be so shocked by "asian values", without helping to provide solutions, I would question myself about the reasons I stay here!?
If I am a guest somewhere and be invited to eat, but that there is something I can not eat, should I force myself to eat it? NO. Would it mean that I didn't behave as a nice guest? NO... as long as I didn't shout a loud "you're just a bunch of primitive people, we don't eat this in the Western paradise".
Come on Mauricio, you are smart enough to know that respect doesn't mean blind acceptance and that being a guest doesn't mean being a fool.
On that particular case, Mauricio, I would have politely complain to the waiter and/or the manager. No action taken? I would have take action myself. I for sure have duties/kewajiban but I also have rights/hak. When someone forgets it, and that no-one whose duty is to protect this right is dealing with the problem, I just enforce it myself and those whose responsabilities were to take care of it clean the mess, if there is mess. Respect that I consider owing to people stop when they start to mess with my legal rights.
Time wasted :)
Time indeed wasted, but thanks for your contribution Tim... Mind to translate it in french or indonesian?:)
"Obscurantism", I love that word. That is a very appropriate word that I would have used in Spanish as well. The word Obscurantismo in Spanish is usually found in literature about people whose lives are guided by primordial myths and superstitions. The root word is obscuro which means dark. The opposite of dark is light, ergo the word Enlightenment. But I digress...
Provide solutions? The solutions are common-sense. They are not rocket science or brain surgery. We all know what the solutions are. What is needed is not to provide solutions, but to change attitudes and raise awareness, and at times to challenge peoples beliefs. Doing otherwise--to go along with the "Asian values" charade--is a diservice to Indonesians and dishonest to myself.
I don't ask you whether you mind if I drink, you shouldn't ask me whether I mind if you smoke.
A very old political trick mite, ..don't answer the questions raised, and go off on a tangent..
I repeat my questions to you..
"was that clearly stated prior to the occasion, or your position on smoking well known by Maria and any other smokers in attendance?
Also, where was this social occasion held, my experience of Indonesia is that there are very very few places where dilarang rokok is enforced as you yourself have noted.
So I would pose the question of what was your responsibility in regard to Maria's query 'do you guys mind if I smoke?'"
[QUOTE=atlantis;20915]Time indeed wasted, but thanks for your contribution Tim...
Your time was definately NOT wasted on some of us Atlantis, just on some people ;}
Doing otherwise--to go along with the "Asian values" charade--is a diservice to Indonesians and dishonest to myself.[/QUOTE]
What was your line of work again M, consulting in some capacity for the Elections wasn't it?...perhaps an International Observor I don't know, but I'm seriously interested to know how you apply your principles and philosophies in your daily work.
I don't ask you whether you mind if I drink, you shouldn't ask me whether I mind if you smoke.
The point was that I don't ask you whether you are ok with me sharing the polluting waste product from my drinking. Consequently, I expect you to refrain from asking me whether I am ok with you sharing the polluting waste product from your smoking.
I replied to Maria's query by saying that she should not put me in a situation where I have to ask her to refrain from doing something.
The point was that I don't ask you whether you are ok with me sharing the polluting waste product from my drinking. Consequently, I expect you to refrain from asking me whether I am ok with you sharing the polluting waste product from your smoking.
I replied to Maria's query by saying that she should not put me in a situation where I have to ask her to refrain from doing something.
Again M.
'A very old political trick mite, ..don't answer the questions raised, and go off on a tangent..
I repeat my questions to you..
"was that clearly stated prior to the occasion, or your position on smoking well known by Maria and any other smokers in attendance?
Also, where was this social occasion held, my experience of Indonesia is that there are very very few places where dilarang rokok is enforced as you yourself have noted.
So I would pose the question of what was your responsibility in regard to Maria's query 'do you guys mind if I smoke?'"
Smoking and non-smoking sections are relatively common. The incident took place and has taken place several times in restaurants with clearly delineated smoking and non-smoking sections. The point is that these sections are, for the purpose of enforcement, meaningless because the waiters turn a blind eye, the manager turns a blind eye.
To be honest, I am not at all sure what you are asking. The answer is only as good as the question. Present the question clearly.
simarkbotak
17-03-09, 17:40
Being a smoker, I totally agree that establishments should strongly enforce S/Non-S sections.
I personally am guilty for sometimes taking advantage of the lax enforcement.
Sorry to all the non-s. :o
Smoking and non-smoking sections are relatively common. The incident took place and has taken place several times in restaurants with clearly delineated smoking and non-smoking sections. The point is that these sections are, for the purpose of enforcement, meaningless because the waiters turn a blind eye, the manager turns a blind eye.
To be honest, I am not at all sure what you are asking. The answer is only as good as the question. Present the question clearly.
M, I'm talking specifically about Maria's post re; the 'party' and your response or lack of, to her!
Maria quote;
'Guys who I met at the PARTY esp the guys/girls I was sitting next to (MAURICIO, ash, tim, lis and alia),
was it really okay for you if I smoked or you were just being nice? I would have gladly put it off if you told me not to. Sorry!
Omdafyd quote;
..'it's up to them to be honest in their reply especially if they are friends!'..
..'So I would pose the question of what was your responsibility in regard to Maria's query 'do you guys mind if I smoke?'
I had already made a post in regard to people not being totally honest when smokers try to be sensitive to the needs of others.
I am not disagreeing with your point about people ignoring the 'rules'..
I just want to know if you gave her an honest answer or not? ..
and if not what was your rational especialy given the strong sentiments you are expressing...
You know me, I'm a nice guy. I was being half nice/half insincere. I wish she hadn't asked. On the other hand, she did buy me a couple of beers so all is forgiven.
Being a smoker, I totally agree that establishments should strongly enforce S/Non-S sections.
I personally am guilty for sometimes taking advantage of the lax enforcement.
Sorry to all the non-s. :o
Simarkbotak, I like your honesty to admit your weakness. After reading this thread I’m sure you understand the non smokers view. Next time will you please choose only the smoking section?
You know me, I'm a nice guy. I was being half nice/half insincere. I wish she hadn't asked. On the other hand, she did buy me a couple of beers so all is forgiven.
Thank you Mauricio for being nice. I should've taken into account that you are an outdoorsy/active type of guy and also Suddenly Slimmer our resident gym junkie, so I should just had the common sense that you guys didn't like smoking especially second hand smoke.
Thank you Omdafyd for helping things to be clarified.
As for future meet ups with other forum mates, please do not hesitate to tell me if it is or not okay with you for me to smoke especially when I sit beside you, I will not think that you are not nice if you do so and respect your space.
Your time was definately NOT wasted on some of us Atlantis, just on some people ;}
Your coment are apreciate verry much by I, Omdafyd.
Note: The above spelling mistakes are done on purpose to keep Tim busy. ;)
Your coment are apreciate verry much by I, Omdafyd.
Note: The above spelling mistakes are done on purpose to keep Tim busy. ;)
Sama sama...
Tim's already very busy being super productive and efficient, when he's not chatting or posting on facebook and other forums, ,.... or chasing Ayam ;}
Your time was definately NOT wasted on some of us Atlantis, just on some people ;}
You dont seem to understand what we were talking about.
Your post is irrelevant.
You dont seem to understand what we were talking about.
Your post is irrelevant.
Actually Tim, it was your post highlighting the spelling mistakes of Atlantis that was irrelevant to the thread ;}
Seriously omdafyd, are you just going around looking for an agument?
Growing tired of it.
Seriously omdafyd, are you just going around looking for an agument?
Growing tired of it.
'Tim's already very busy being super productive and efficient, when he's not chatting or posting on facebook and other forums, ,.... or chasing Ayam ;}'
Mite, If you can't take a joke, did you see the wink above?..or a friendly dig...don't post comments that leave you wide open, remember these are your comments above not mine.
Arguements?, anytime, I love debate ;}
I dont give a shit about a wink at the end of something obviously looking to bait me, yet again
Calm down children or you're all going to bed without dinner.
Back on topic; I'm a heavy smoker but my mommy done raised me nice so in general I don't smoke in non-smoking sections. If I am in an establishment where smoking is permitted and I'm with some friends, I'll ask them once if they mind if I light up, given that I feel it's more polite to ask than to just spark one off.
If they reply they don't mind, then I'll assume they're being sincere and I'll light up. Of course it has happened that people complained about it after being okay with it initially at which point I'll point and laugh at them.
The only "non smoking" area I do smoke is at the office, in the stairwell, where all the smokers on our floor congregate; see, otherwise I'd have to wait 15 minutes (no joke) for an elevator to go downstairs to spend 2 minutes huffing my smoke and another 15 minutes waiting for an elevator to go back upstairs. 32 minutes v.s. 4 minutes, well, easy choice there.
Also in general I find it amusing how vehemently opposed some people can get to cigarettes and smokers; we're in Jakarta, do you really think cigarette smoke is worse than the shit you breathe outside every second of the day?
Calm down children or you're all going to bed without dinner.
I've already been sent to bed by 'she who must be obeyed' for two nights now, with no 'dinner' ;}
Also in general I find it amusing how vehemently opposed some people can get to cigarettes and smokers; we're in Jakarta, do you really think cigarette smoke is worse than the shit you breathe outside every second of the day?
This is the irony of the dilemma of non smokers in Indonesia, not to mention that they are by far the minority!
I think an honest response to the question:
"Do you mind if I smoke?"
could be:
"Not at all, so long as you don't mind I fart in your face!" :D
non-smoker David
:} :} :} :} :}....
Best post so far in this thread, 'Billy" ;}
I think an honest response to the question:
"Do you mind if I smoke?"
could be:
"Not at all, so long as you don't mind I fart in your face!" :D
non-smoker David
...
Also in general I find it amusing how vehemently opposed some people can get to cigarettes and smokers; we're in Jakarta, do you really think cigarette smoke is worse than the shit you breathe outside every second of the day?
Don't add insult (to my intelligence) to injury. Yes, I actually do think that the general air that I breath away from cigarrette smoke is better than the concentrated whiff emanating from you cigarrettes. Let me cut to the heart of the matter: your posing this question is nothing more than a self-interested way of changing the original dilema. Your self-serving assessment of the ambient air is altogether irrelevant to the questions of whether i.) your smoke stinks (it does), ii.) your smoke is unhealthy to me (it is), iii.) your smoke should emanate from a non-smoking section (it ought not).
Why, do you mind if I fart?"
Steve Martin (American standup/film comedian/actor)
In the case of smokers asking if others mind if they fart, ehm I mean smoke:
Although I do think there are non-smokers who truely don't care if smokers smoke around them, most either dislike it intensly or would really prefer not to have it around them.
Smokers know that. Most smokers don't care. They're nervous system is all jitery and they require a smoke to "get normal". They are drug addicts and addicts are self-centred at least until they get their fix. Then there is always the "gotta have a smoke with my drink" which is more a mental habit than a physical one. As a matter of fact most cigs smoked in a day stem from the mental side not the physical. If they cared they wouldn't ask people if they mind. They would move outside or far away from others while they medicated themselves.
Then there is the argument that "the smoker asks to be polite and wouldn't smoke if people said they mind". With the above knowledge, they are simply asking what they already know holds true most of the time. Whether non-smokers own up to it or not, ya they mind, overall (especially bule non-smokers).
Designated Non-Smoking Areas
In order for them to be useful, really good ventilation has to be in place or almost for not. If the laws aren't inforced silly to have them in place. Establishments should be held accountable as well as patrons. For example people lightup in a non-smoking area and they go on puffing away without management asking them to butt out or move within minutes, the establishment along with the smokers should be fined. For that to work there have to be inspectors. There don't have to be as many Inspectors as one might think either. After a number of busts and high fines especially for establishments word would get out and you could be sure other establishments wouldn't want to risk it. Without that in place the law is ink on paper only. In the case where management has warned patrons and they refuse to cease smoking or move, mangement should be required to call the police, security or face fines. The fines have to be hefty too.
Probably the most important factor to make it all work comes down to the people. If patrons turn a blind eye to offenders, offenders will go on offending. Now if the opposite was true, smokers wouldn't stand a chance.
Air Quality vs Cig Smoke:
One doesn't have to think one is worse than the other to criticise either, vehemently or mildly.
Its absurd to say that most people in Indonesia smoke. Its not even close.
Tim. Only one can allow oneself to be goaded in.
Mauricio, ya got a light?
I am a non-smoker and I also feel very bad when people smoke near me . But I think , if the government do not take action , it is impossible to change the situation . About 50 years ago my country's government already prohibited smoking inside buses , but here in Bandung it is still allowed . Human being , in general , is selfish , and I think only law (and law enforcement/penalty) can change selfish behaviors .
Mauricio, point taken -- however, as I said, I don't smoke in non-smoking sections. Now if you choose to sit near me when I smoke, you also choose to give up your right to complain about my smoke.
In the same vein, if I choose to sit in a non-smoking section, I choose to give up my "right" to smoke at that point.
However one thing I really don't like is that you sound very condescending towards smokers. Are we (smokers) somehow lesser beings? Do we deserve to be treated in this manner? Smells like 1940 all over again.
... Do we deserve to be treated in this manner? Smells like 1940 all over again.
Now you're playing the victim?
simarkbotak
24-03-09, 10:22
I think only law (and law enforcement/penalty) can change selfish behaviors .
or Common-Sense and tolerance and un-selfishness!!;)
simarkbotakyangperokok
Are we (smokers) somehow lesser beings? Do we deserve to be treated in this manner? Smells like 1940 all over again.
What happened in 1940 that is relevent to this thread?
I know I was only 3 years old but cannot recall anything that is relevent. I was in UK and being bombed so much by the Germans that I lived in an Air Raid shelter for most of my childhood..I don't recall anyone smoking in the shelter.
Both my mother and father were heavy smokers during their life; indeed, it was the primary cause of both their deaths.
I have never smoked once..never; but have so suffered the obnoxious behaviour of smokers during my life that I truly believe that they are "lesser beings".
IMO...They are people who survive on a legal drug, upon which they are dependant, for all rational thought.
Smoke-free yaay! David
I can't believe this thread is still going...
Of course smoking is a crappy, filthy, polluting, self indulgent and destructive habit, but so is drinking to excess or many of the other 'bad habits' we humans tend to indulge in, and yes it's a major health concern to many Indonesians who smoke and a minority of expats who don't but is it a priority compared to the critical socio economic problems this country is facing? Personally I think not!
Those of you 'youngsters', Davita excepted ;} ,who were lucky enough to be brought up in a society that generally discouraged smoking have no idea what peer pressure meant to us oldies back in the early 60's when smoking was accepted and promoted as a healthy lifestyle!
Give us a break pleeeeeese, and lets debate something more constructive to the society we have chosen to live in.
After that rave I'm going outside for a fag to relax. :}
Now you're playing the victim?
Right, I suppose that I should just agree with you and your (unspoken) attitude against smokers then?
Let me tell you something, you non-smokers out there? You're going to die too. Sooner or later, you too are going to keel over and shuffle off this mortal coil just the same as any smoker would.
Seeing as how I don't consume any alcohol, guess that makes it okay for me to bitch when you open a beer near me, seeing as how those second hand alcohol fumes are getting to me. Read that again and then by all means tell me how ridiculous that sounds.
And anyone that cannot fathom the parallels between the non-smokers more or less clamoring against "that non-uber group of smokers who can be ridiculed at will, who can be looked down on at will, and who should do as -we- say" and the years 1940-1945 should perhaps think a bit harder.
But you can all rejoice, since this is a forum, you do not have to be exposed to my secondhand smoke. You may also take comfort in the fact I have no intention of showing up at any sort of meeting either, lord knows my evil evil cigarettes might just make your eyes water, and I don't want to deal with you non-smokers' incessant infantile whining.
I was raised to be polite, even as a smoker, I attempted to see things from a non-smokers perspective, I stuck to the rules about where I could and could not smoke, and I asked non-smokers if it was okay for me to have a smoke near them. As has become clear in this thread, I guess us smokers are only doing it "for show", so why bother? Guess I'll just become the stereotype and give everyone a hearty "screw you" and light one up whenever I damn well please.
simarkbotak
26-03-09, 02:17
I don't know what to say that post.. I am speechless..
How can you compare alcohol fumes to second-hand smoke??
I am a smoker and I do respect non-smokers, although it is sometimes difficult to do.
Yes, we will all die someday, but there is no need to be a catalyst by passing on second-hand smoke if it is not tolerated!;)
I was simply suggesting that you shouldn't play victim. That's all.
Right, I suppose that I should just agree with you and your (unspoken) attitude against smokers then?
Let me tell you something, you non-smokers out there? You're going to die too. Sooner or later, you too are going to keel over and shuffle off this mortal coil just the same as any smoker would.
Seeing as how I don't consume any alcohol, guess that makes it okay for me to bitch when you open a beer near me, seeing as how those second hand alcohol fumes are getting to me. Read that again and then by all means tell me how ridiculous that sounds.
And anyone that cannot fathom the parallels between the non-smokers more or less clamoring against "that non-uber group of smokers who can be ridiculed at will, who can be looked down on at will, and who should do as -we- say" and the years 1940-1945 should perhaps think a bit harder.
But you can all rejoice, since this is a forum, you do not have to be exposed to my secondhand smoke. You may also take comfort in the fact I have no intention of showing up at any sort of meeting either, lord knows my evil evil cigarettes might just make your eyes water, and I don't want to deal with you non-smokers' incessant infantile whining.
I was raised to be polite, even as a smoker, I attempted to see things from a non-smokers perspective, I stuck to the rules about where I could and could not smoke, and I asked non-smokers if it was okay for me to have a smoke near them. As has become clear in this thread, I guess us smokers are only doing it "for show", so why bother? Guess I'll just become the stereotype and give everyone a hearty "screw you" and light one up whenever I damn well please.
Wow! from the quote:
Do we need further proof that the drug nicotine, or the lack of it when addicted, influences rational thought!
From Welplex Nicotine Withdrawal Clinic:-
Eliminating Physical Withdrawal
With nicotine dependency, rational thought is compromised when physical cravings occur. This double-barreled approach recognizes the critical linkage between the physical and psychological drives of the patient.
Nicotine dependency is first and foremost, a physiological need. Patients experience overwhelming urges, cravings and desires for cigarettes. Without adequate nicotine in their systems, patients feel irritable, lightheaded, sluggish or ill.
Our treatment program eliminates cravings -- the physical need -- immediately. Elimination of the physical response to nicotine is a first step toward quitting since learned behavior patterns weaken and disappear over time if they are not reinforced.
Once the physical withdrawal symptoms are gone, patients become more receptive to behavior modification.
Nicofree David
Sorry to come a bit late for this argument...:D
Mauricio, it is not an Asian value as there are now many Asian countries which are efficient to protect non smokers. I travelled in almost every asian country and It is much more obvious in Indonesia and I believe for 2 reasons :
1) Many locals do not see tobacco as we see it in western countries nowadays, much more like we used to see it 10, 20 or 30 years ago in the US / Western Europe. Basically, it is (for them) an harmless behavior like drinking or eating. Since a vast majority of Indonesians accept it, why should they bother for a minority ! it is their right to do whatever they want.
2) Law enforcement : Indonesian people have the perception that there is no law enforcement and if there is, there is also almost always a way to get around the problem...specially if you have some money & power.
Furthermore, a young waiter/waitress here is virtually nothing... compared to a mature man probably in a much higher social position. they just would think "How dare you tell me what I can and cannot do ?"
You can, of course, try to enforce the law/rule yourself but only if there are only one or maximum 2 tables smoking. I experimented it myself and I go directly & politely face to face to inform smokers that they break the law and that their disturb others. They are usually extremely surprised and accept my request. However, if the restaurant let people smoke in non smoking sections, very quickly everybody will smoke and then it is too late to do anything.
What I do usually is if there are too many smokers in a non smoking section is to call the manager, explain him why I am living right away, why I will not eat in his restaurant and why he is losing business ! Maybe today he does not care but one day...
Furthermore, a young waiter/waitress here is virtually nothing... compared to a mature man probably in a much higher social position. they just would think "How dare you tell me what I can and cannot do ?"
You probably could have said the same thing about Thailand, but I think they have done a pretty good job at banning smoking.
I have never smoked so I don't understand the enjoyment people get from smoking.
Yes, you could get killed tomorrow in a traffic accident and we all die anyway, but getting a smoking related illness is not a nice way to go. My grandfather got emphysema and it is not pretty.
...
Mauricio, it is not an Asian value as there are now many Asian countries which are efficient to protect non smokers. ...
I agree fully. This whole "Asian values" thing is a red-herring, that serves to change the subject and avoids, often in a self-serving way, asking the uncomfortable question whether the behaviour or practice in question is positive or negative, whether it is fair or not, whether it is sensible or not.
Wow! from the quote:
Do we need further proof that the drug nicotine, or the lack of it when addicted, influences rational thought!
From Welplex Nicotine Withdrawal Clinic:-
With nicotine dependency, rational thought is compromised when physical cravings occur.
Nicofree David
David,
note the qualifying statement highlighted above!
You cannot assume that Madcat is in withdrawals and hence, according to that company promoting their product, experiencing irrational thoughts, those described 'withdawal symptoms are very generalised and not all smokers experience these when attempting to quit.
I'm also pretty sure he was having a fag when posting the comment. :}
Smoked out?
There's an easy, patented way to quit, for only $400. Ready to sign up? Well ...
By SCOTT BARANCIK
Published September 9, 2006
http://www.sptimes.com/2006/09/09/Business/Smoked_out.shtml
Attention cigarette smokers: If your patch has petered out, your gum grown cold, and your luck with lasers and hypnotists run dry, a Tampa company says it has a $400 cure.
Welplex Inc.'s patented program - a couple of shots of FDA-approved medicine, two weeks of pills and a pamphlet on behavior modification - is a snap. Your addiction will end immediately, the company says, with few or no symptoms of withdrawal. More than half of its patients are still smoke-free a year after treatment.
"The patent encompasses the best that medical science has to offer for the treatment of nicotine addiction," says a page on Welplex's Web site, www.nosmoke2000.com (http://www.nosmoke2000.com). With an estimated 438,000 Americans dropping dead each year from cigarettes, it's a powerful marketing statement.
But critics are concerned:
- The drugs used by Welplex and its 10-state, 22-city chain of franchises are approved by the Food and Drug Administration - but not for treating nicotine addiction.
- Though Welplex says its anticholinergic drugs cure addiction and withdrawal symptoms instantaneously, the Surgeon General's 200-page "clinical practice guideline" for treating tobacco dependence never mentions them.
- Several experts have questioned the scientific rigor of the "clinical" study, conducted by the company itself, that serves as the basis for Welplex's purported success........
Hmmmmmmmm food for thought?
file:///C:/Users/Internet/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg
956 Views...63 replies!...almost more than the 'underage sex worker thread.. :confused:
radit_bezit
27-03-09, 01:04
I am a non-smoker and I also feel very bad when people smoke near me . But I think , if the government do not take action , it is impossible to change the situation . About 50 years ago , Brazilian government already prohibited smoking inside buses , but here in Bandung it is still allowed . Human being , in general , is selfish , and I think only law (and law enforcement/penalty) can change selfish behaviors .
Talking about the government and their company, How they smoke is worse than another company. If I have a meeting with the government company, I should prepare that I have to stay in a room with AC and with a non smoking area mark but full with smoke since most every person from the company is smoking for almost 2-3 hours. And I can not complaining because who am i. Hehe ...
Jakarta actually has a rule about a smoking and a non smoking one. But it is just effective in one day only, the first day when the smoking rule allowed in jakarta. Hehe ... just like another rule in indonesia right?
Bandung .. haha ... yes it is correct. Being live in this place for 23 years and I always have to talk to people not smoking in front of me in the angkots or bus ... hehe .. I thought expat not using public transportation in Bandung since you know ... in bandung angkot's rute a little bit confusing.:D
To Mauricio
Just told the smoker to stop smoking in front of you if you don't like directly and politely. It is not working if you talk to the manager or another in charge ppl (my experience). :p
I was simply suggesting that you shouldn't play victim. That's all.
Then don't treat smokers like secondhand beings.
As I said before, I smoke, but I am considerate towards non-smokers; always have been, most likely always will be. If that is somehow a bad thing, by all means let me know and I'll be more than happy to turn into an inconsiderate jerk.
The only thing that gets on my tits is when non-smokers start waving the "holier than thou" flag -- fuck that shit.
@davida: clever way of calling me something by the way -- I have to say though, if you can't come out and tell me something to my face without having to hide behind some silly article written by a silly clinic that makes silly money off selling shit to silly dumb smokers, then don't say it at all. Grow a pair of balls mate.
silly dumb smokers
couldnt put it better myself
Oops! I am guilty of having ashtray breath...but I do ask if it's okay for me to smoke when I'm next to someone who is not a smoker. Guys who I met at the party esp the guys/girls I was sitting next to (mauricio, ash, tim, lis and alia), was it really okay for you if I smoked or you were just being nice? I would have gladly put it off if you told me not to. Sorry!
I used to be quite a motorbreath myself.... smoking non-stop. But I always respected my neighbors on their health priorities and almost NEVER smoked when in company of a minor.
I love smoking and sometimes it helps me to sit next to smokers ... I was pretty much alright and enjoyed the company Maria... no worries!! I would have surely let u know if I had problems with your smoking.
I agree fully. This whole "Asian values" thing is a red-herring, that serves to change the subject and avoids, often in a self-serving way, asking the uncomfortable question whether the behaviour or practice in question is positive or negative, whether it is fair or not, whether it is sensible or not.
My view on 'Asian Values'.... lack of skill in standing up for or against anything at all. The lack of skill in saying a clear NO to something. It is the most fundamental problem and the culture of compromise and adjustment is a reasonable alibi for this ever encouraged behavior ..... ask any elder about it and they can give you the merits of it endlessly :D . The herd mentality?
During one of the education seminars i attended years ago.. the wise director inquired ..."Should we introduce a subject that teaches children to say NO in a million ways?" :D
Would have done good!!!!
956 Views...63 replies!...almost more than the 'underage sex worker thread.. :confused:
It still has a lot more to go to reach my 6,535 views, 134 reply thread on the Hilux...
And still a lot lot more to reach the 166 posts and 15074 hits on the "how does love with an indonesian woman (http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php?t=313&page=17)" ;)
couldnt put it better myself
Great to see you had an immensely original thought and decided to put your 2 cents in. Any better argumentation from your end or will you whine about people always looking for confrontations?
Great to see you had an immensely original thought and decided to put your 2 cents in. Any better argumentation from your end or will you whine about people always looking for confrontations?
lmfao :rolleyes:
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