View Full Version : "Asian Values": The Case of 'Ponari Sweat'
Pocari Sweat is a common isotonic canned drink in Indonesia. Muhammad Ponari is a child in East Java believed to possess mystical healing powers. His home in Jombang has been the destination of many, often paying millions of rupiah, seeking to drink water in which a magical stone, which appeared on Ponari's head after being struck by lightning, has been dunked. This potion, which many believe can heal, has now been given the clever name Ponari Sweat.
Seeking to explain people's willingness to travel from afar and spend small fortunes just to get a glimpse of the boy and drink the magic elixir, Indonesian experts and commentators themselves have expressed concern about the attitudes and mentalities involved. A former chairman of the Indonesian Medical Association said:
"Not only in villages do we see this phenomenon, but also in big cities. People who want to be healed quickly go to a shaman. People who want to get rich, they also go to a shamam. Rich or poor has nothing to do with it...It's like these people don't use their common sense so they are easily persuaded by promises and quick-fix solutions"
A social expert from University Darul Ulum declared:
"Indonesian legends and myths all say that power and success are not acquired through rigorous struggle and effort. Traditionally, powers are gained by chance or bestowed upon them via acts of faith"
Several threads on this Forum have suggested that we should just accept Indonesian culture wholesale and without question, particularly those people who are marrying an Indonesian person and residing here in Indonesia. They have justified their position by arguing that that's just how the culture is and that's what the culture expects, conveniently ignoring the questions of i.) whether those cultural norms and expectations are sound and reasonable, and ii.) whether those norms and expectations ought to change. An appeal to "Asian Values" or "Kebudayan Timur" is the way that many Indonesians justify similar positions. Implicit in their "justification" is that i.) a culture cannot change or ought not change, and ii.) a culture has no impact on the material and intellectual well-being of those who practice it.
Religion only adds to the cacophony. In response to people's belief in the curative powers of Ponari Sweat, an NU leader stated:
"Health comes from God so you should pray to Him..."
Silly me. Here I was, thinking that health comes from a balance among exercise, rest, good nutrition and healthcare. I'd like to ask this learned and wise ulama to explain how this atheist, I, enjoys impeccable good health. If the NU leader is correct, the vast majority of people in hospitals are atheists and apostates. Yet the last time I visited an Indonesian hospital, most people seemed to be your typical Indonesian religious folk.
So, are these the vaunted set of values to which I, as a foreigner, must defer and genuflect? The seeds of our own (under)development, I'm afraid, lie within each of us.
A social expert from University Darul Ulum declared:
Indonesian legends and myths all say that power and success are not acquired through rigorous struggle and effort. Traditionally, powers are gained by chance or bestowed upon them via acts of faith"
Or by ringing that sms number promoted by all of those 'well meaning celebritis' and wannabes. what was it again 99 ???
oh and don't forget 'mama Lauren"
well said M. { our resident forum philosopher}
A social expert from University Darul Ulum declared:
Indonesian legends and myths all say that power and success are not acquired through rigorous struggle and effort. Traditionally, powers are gained by chance or bestowed upon them via acts of faith"
Or by ringing that sms number promoted by all of those 'well meaning celebritis' and wannabes. what was it again 99 ???
oh and don't forget 'mama Lauren"
well said M. { our resident forum philosopher}
I'm glad you brought that up...it seems to me that I read somewhere that Magicians, Psychics and Soothsayers are against the tenents of Islam, so who made this exception?
Thank you for that post. It was my first time to notice that drink in the store and was wondering how strange the name was.
As for beliefs in these things, we have the same in my country but I can see that with the new generation, at least I think only my parents generation still believes in this, but if you ask mine or the next ones, they don't believe it anymore simply because we all know they're not true.
Ishtar^Summer
23-02-09, 17:39
This case IMHO
happen because many people couldnt afford decent medical expense,eventhough through it's policy,goverment allready give it for free,by reality many still have difficulities to have this priviledge,KTP,KK,declaration of provertiness,and other document that have to be applied
free medical expense is only a dream for them
then voila
there's ponari with his stone that claimed as a magical healer
desperation has make him as a new hope
ISHTAR, so you think that if Indonesians had access to medical services, they would cease to be superstitious and religious? Surely you jest!
The article in question shows the prevalence of a type of mentality, one that lends itself to religion and religiousity, which then serve as the primary motivators behind social mores and standards of behaviour, part of the so-called "Asian values". When it comes to modes of thinking, it is not a far leap between believing in Ponari Sweat and believing in revelation, holy books, prophets, angels, heaven and hell. They are both part and parcel of the same type of thinking.
Actually our house (my parents house) if full of these things..although my family is roman catholic, my parents have adapted to every kind of superstition or beliefs even if it from another religion as long as it will make them 'lucky' or ward away evil spirits. We have:
from being religious (sometimes over) catholics
- of course an altar with Jesus, Mother Mary and Santo Nino (i dunno how to put enye in the keyboard, alt+ some numbers right?), full of rosaries and novenas that no one ever uses. Unless when my mother catches me and my brother fighting then it's sure to be a rosary night to ward away the evil in us. For worse case scenarios, we have to recite all the mysteries plus litany etc etc...zzzzzz
- giant rosaries or crucifix in every room in the house
- picture of the last supper in our dining room
for good luck
- waving cat (i think this is from japanese beliefs). I was thinking to stick a paper knife on it's hand and watch it wave back and forth...hehehe
- buddha statue, the smiling fat buddha with all the little kids around him
- a bundle of rice stalks hanging on top of our main door
- a horseshoe on the main door
- golden pineapple statue and golden horse statue (from chinese beliefs)
- the number of steps on our stairs were determined by oro-plata-mata..should always end on oro(gold)
- golden coconut tree in front of the house
- a pyramid is hanging on the ceiling on top of one of our stairs, supposed to give you more 'brain power' if you stand under it for some minutes everyday..no one ever did this
- my mom buys these bracelets made of stones and crystals that are supposed to boost luck on money, love or whatever you want. they were pretty but overpriced since they didnt do anything.
I think now that my parents are old (in their 70's) I'm sure they know that whatever they have achieved in life is not connected or influenced by these things. If they were really effective we should've been millionaires already! hahaha! I think having positive thinking is enough. Thought creates energy. But for other people who still believes in things like these, even if there are scientific facts to prove them wrong, 'Whatever floats your boat!' that's what i always say.
Unfortunately social mores, customs and practices are influenced or informed by religion and religious thinking. Therefore, we have laws that prevent people of the same religion from marrrying, non-Muslim men from marrying a Muslim woman, living together without matrimony. Yet, many here will argue that I must accept all of this, without question, out of respect for the "culture".
If I believed in Santa Claus, I think you'd be pretty upset if I insisted that streets be constructed so as to accomodate snow sleds and that there could be no air traffic on Christmas Eve so as to not disturb the delivery of presents. Now if hundreds of thousands of people believed in Santa Claus, then my belief system would be called a religion and its tenets would become sacrosact even though the same ridiculous beliefs remain in place.
Black Adder
23-02-09, 18:34
ISHTAR, so you think that if Indonesians had access to medical services, they would cease to be superstitious and religious? Surely you jest!
The article in question shows the prevalence of a type of mentality, one that lends itself to religion and religiousity, which then serve as the primary motivators behind social mores and standards of behaviour, part of the so-called "Asian values". When it comes to modes of thinking, it is not a far leap between believing in Ponari Sweat and believing in revelation, holy books, prophets, angels, heaven and hell. They are both part and parcel of the same type of thinking.
Unfortunately as the economy gets worse due to the worldwide financial crisis this kind of thinking, hoping, wishing and believing in false prophets will become more prevalent.
Unfortunately as the economy gets worse...believing in false prophets will become more prevalent.
The belief in "false prophets" presupposes a belief in prophets, does it not?
Black Adder
23-02-09, 18:38
The belief in "false prophets" presupposes a belief in prophets, does it not?
When people are hungry and lost and have stopped believing in themselves they will believe anyone and anything..........
I'm confused. Are you talking about the present, or about the Middle East several centuries ago?
Black Adder
23-02-09, 18:46
I'm confused. Are you talking about the present, or about the Middle East several centuries ago?
Both..............
Who are false prophets and who are not?
Ishtar^Summer
23-02-09, 18:53
Mau
i guess its more to desperation
than being supertitious
or at least desperation lead them to another
Black Adder
23-02-09, 21:55
Well then, you know what I say..............
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o317/JakartaExpat/5c73_1.jpg
Well then, you know what I say..............
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o317/JakartaExpat/5c73_1.jpg
I agree with BA. Personally, I believe that there is a higher being. Whether this is true or not, I just find it easier for me to believe that one exists. It makes it easier for me to believe in one. Whether a person believes that there is a god, whatever religion or sect or whether there is none, as long as it makes the person lives his life without doing damage to himself or to others, then let them be. Of course, there is still the debate of what is really good and bad ..for someone who might be doing something bad and he still thinks he is not doing bad to others or himself , that is a different story.
waarmstrong
24-02-09, 10:26
Who are false prophets and who are not?
Bernie Madoff, Robert Allen Stanford
Black Adder
24-02-09, 10:50
Bernie Madoff, Robert Allen Stanford
There are a few more, just not found yet.
Maria,
There is big a difference in believing in, on one hand, the existence of a higher, supernatural being(s) and, on the other, professing and practicing an organized religion with requires you to believe in prophets, revelation, unclean animals & foods, angels & spirits, prayer & pilgramage, holy lands & shrines, heaven & hell, etc. One can certainly believe in the former without believing in the latter. But this distinction and possibility has never occurred to very many people. This school of thought or form of belief, which comes in many flavors, is called Deism.
A prophet has been traditionally defined as a divinely-inspired and divinely-guided person who brings new moral knowledge to humanity. By this definition, it is absurd to suggest that Maddoff et al were even false prophets.
Black Adder
24-02-09, 11:06
Maria,
There is big a difference in believing in, on one hand, the existence of a higher, supernatural being(s) and, on the other, professing and practicing an organized religion with requires you to believe in prophets, revelation, unclean animals & foods, angels & spirits, prayer & pilgramage, holy lands & shrines, heaven & hell, etc. One can certainly believe in the former without believing in the latter. But this distinction and possibility has never occurred to very many people. This school of thought or form of belief, which comes in many flavors, is called Deism.
A prophet has been traditionally defined as a divinely-inspired and divinely-guided person who brings new moral knowledge to humanity. By this definition, it is absurd to suggest that Maddoff et al were even false prophets.
Analyze this.........
http://www.mrarmageddon.com/awesome/simpsons_movie/biggerthanjesus.jpg
Maria,
There is big a difference in believing in, on one hand, the existence of a higher, supernatural being(s) and, on the other, professing and practicing an organized religion with requires you to believe in prophets, revelation, unclean animals & foods, angels & spirits, prayer & pilgramage, holy lands & shrines, heaven & hell, etc. One can certainly believe in the former without believing in the latter. But this distinction and possibility has never occurred to very many people. This school of thought or form of belief, which comes in many flavors, is called Deism.
A prophet has been traditionally defined as a divinely-inspired and divinely-guided person who brings new moral knowledge to humanity. By this definition, it is absurd to suggest that Maddoff et al were even false prophets.
I don't much about other religion, including islam, so I don't know what it is that other religion requires/enforces you to do even if you don't think it is necessary especially if someone else is making money out of it. But as for a born catholic like me, I think I just observed what is worth following and what is not is based on my experiences and judgement. I personally don't believe in saints, rosary, novenas, kissing the icons, holy communion, confession, going to mass, heaven and hell, the vatican. I think I made up my own image of god according to the way i like him to be. Still don't know if this is good or bad, but who will tell me, only I , i think can find out the answer after I lived my life.. As for the prophet Jesus Christ, I think some (bnecause i dont know all of them) of his teachings are worth to try and follow. and so is Socrates. Is Socrates considered a prophet too aside from being a philosopher? maybe i should've asked my husband about this.
Black Adder
24-02-09, 11:55
^^^^I like my prophets' tall..........
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/dglawrence/2005/02/16/biggerthanjesus.jpg
It's somewhat ironic that at least four people would still be alive if they stayed home and didn't visit the boy.
(http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/255056,four-die-while-queuing-at-childs-healer-clinic--summary.html)Four die while queuing at child's healer clinic (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/255056,four-die-while-queuing-at-childs-healer-clinic--summary.html)
[QUOTE=maria;18305]I agree with BA. Personally, I believe that there is a higher being. Whether this is true or not, I just find it easier for me to believe that one exists. It makes it easier for me to believe in one.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"..
Did I get the quote right? ..
Black Adder
24-02-09, 12:33
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"..
Did I get the quote right? ..
http://www.godandscience.org/images/drugsvschurch.gif
[QUOTE=Mauricio;18236]Unfortunately social mores, customs and practices are influenced or informed by religion and religious thinking.
Not ARE in all cases, but can be and are in many..It all depends upon the primary, and critical early childhood influences in the home, school and social milleu. {can't spell that word}
BA, is the graph a stock Microsoft Office sample that comes with Excel, and all you did was to change the axis labels? It looks like it.
You need a methodology and a source for the graph to be credible. If you believe in any chart thrown at you, then you deserve to be duped...
http://www.godandscience.org/images/drugsvschurch.gif
Black Adder
24-02-09, 12:52
BA, is the graph a stock Microsoft Office sample that comes with Excel, and all you did was to change the axis labels? It looks like it.
You need a methodology and a source for the graph to be credible. If you believe in any chart thrown at you, then you deserve to be duped...
Mauricio, please I can do better than that, I found it here, a favorite site of your's I am sure............
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/religion_as_child_abuse.html
'Religion' and God can sometimes be two very different things.
I believe in God, but I don't consider myself a religious person. In fact, I quite dislike the term 'religion' and it's connotations. In my mind it brings up the image of useless, repeated actions, sometimes unreasonable sacrifices, superstitions and heirachy, in the hopes of salvation. My faith is simple, but very powerful in my life. Something I could only deny if I had my eyes closed my entire life. Even then, it wouldn't be an impossible experience to have
[quote=maria;18305]I agree with BA. Personally, I believe that there is a higher being. Whether this is true or not, I just find it easier for me to believe that one exists. It makes it easier for me to believe in one.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"..
Did I get the quote right? ..
Religion is the opium of the masses? I'm not sure also. I think this saying is true.
waarmstrong
25-02-09, 01:22
Maria,
There is big a difference in believing in, on one hand, the existence of a higher, supernatural being(s) and, on the other, professing and practicing an organized religion with requires you to believe in prophets, revelation, unclean animals & foods, angels & spirits, prayer & pilgramage, holy lands & shrines, heaven & hell, etc. One can certainly believe in the former without believing in the latter. But this distinction and possibility has never occurred to very many people. This school of thought or form of belief, which comes in many flavors, is called Deism.
A prophet has been traditionally defined as a divinely-inspired and divinely-guided person who brings new moral knowledge to humanity. By this definition, it is absurd to suggest that Maddoff et al were even false prophets.
From your pedestal, Mauricio, I would have thought you could see that the Maddoff comment was tongue in cheek. Besides, the term "prophet" while usually referring to one divinely inspired, as you note, can in more general usage, mean simply a predictor or the chief spokesperson of a movement.
It was only a matter of time...
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll96/mauricio_28/image0011.jpg
it looks like turd tea!! seriously?!!! :eek:
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