View Full Version : Devastated in 1945
And now look at them.
http://12most.com/2012/01/17/12-learn-japan/
Japan was already great and a Sovereign nation before WWII and they also managed to conquer almost all of South East Asia... After WWII the US have spent a lot of $$$ rebuilding them...
On the other hand take a look at Indonesia... What were they before WWII ? :)
I think it wouldn't be fair to compare Indonesia with Japan... :)
Japan was already great and a Sovereign nation before WWII and they also managed to conquer almost all of South East Asia... After WWII the US have spent a lot of $$$ rebuilding them...
On the other hand take a look at Indonesia... What were they before WWII ? :)
I think it wouldn't be fair to compare Indonesia with Japan... :)
Yeah... and they didn't have the dutch, did they?
Maybe we could compare Indonesia with Malaysia, Singapore or Thailand then.
Don't forget the British (Sir Rafles) invested a LOTS of sterlings to build Singapore as it was meant to be a Free Port from the beginning and all british vessels traveling from India had to port there....
How much was invested in Indonesia by the Dutch ??? What was the long terms plans of the Dutch for Indonesia ???
You can notice the countries under British Colonies and countries under Dutch, French, Portuguese Colonies are very-veryt different...
And Malaysia and Thailand?
The Indonesian GDP growth is still higher than Malaysia & Singapore and its much-much higher than Thailand... then ???
Link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate_%28lates t_year%29
You know more about the issue, so I will defer to your opinion that the Japanese people are better than Indonesian people. That Indonesia can't even come close to what they've achieved.
I guess I look at other people's achievement and I ask myself "why can't I?" in a sense that I will try to replicate their success. Because I have a high opinion of myself so I think that if someone else can do it, I must be able also.
From our past conversations, it looks like you see other people's achievement and you ask yourself "why can't I?" in a sense that you try to find out why they're superior than you.
Don't forget the Marshall Plan. That gave the Japanese a big push.
I'm aware of all the help the Japanese received. Just saying that if they can achieve all that (yes, with extra help), why can't Indonesia come to within 20 years of that? or even 30? What makes for the wide gap? Is all Indonesia need the same amount of extra help? In the same amount of time (adjusted for inflation and future value), how much has the Japanese received and how much has Indonesia received?
In short, what extra things would Indonesia need to come up to a level of prosperity and success that is Japan today? I'm not interested in what enable Japan to have leap frogged Indonesia. But what would enable Indonesia to catch up. Big difference in thought process there.
There are completely different sets of historical circumstances and societal characteristics. Japan was an expansionist imperial power before and during the war and Japanese society was, I dare to say still is, a very closed society. They have never been invaded, let alone colonized.
I think a more important question that we need to ask ourselves is... What do we have to start with ?...
Are we starting from ZERO and trying to develop ourself ?
The Japanese didn't start from ZERO and with help from US could rebuild their cities and industries at no time...
On the other hand.. Indonesia was ZERO and didn't even EXIST before WWII... They (Indonesia) didn't even have the foundation let alone an Industry...
Inspite of all that Indonesia have achieved developments and are still growing at their own pace which is good according to me...
I don't consider any human being better than the other.. They are all the same everywhere ... The difference is the situations and conditions that each country has had to go through....
john madden
13-03-12, 13:48
...and the mindset.
RS: So Indonesian people will forever have the same societal characteristics? Will never be able to overcome the fact that they were colonized? I'm not sure I agree with not being imperialistic...before the Dutch there have been some significant nations in the areas that are now Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. So the question is still the same for me, what will it take for Indonesia to achieve the same success as Japan? It can't? Ever?
RS: Do any of that matter? Let me reiterate the question, what will it take for Indonesia to succeed? All of the things that has been mentioned so far are, arguably but with some merits, reasons that Indonesia's growth is less than Japan's. I don't mean GDP, but growth as a society.J
JM: and what will it take to change the mindset so Indonesia can achieve the same successes as Japan (or pick any other country).
Facts are that Indonesia is less developed than many other countries in the world. Let's not compare why Indonesia is better than some. But rather: "what would it take for Indonesia to be better than most".
The Indonesian GDP growth is still higher than Malaysia & Singapore and its much-much higher than Thailand... then ???
Link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate_(latest_ year)
You don't see what the problem is?
GDP per capita Indonesia: 4668 dollars
GDP per capita Singapore: 59936 dollars
GDP per capita Malaysia: 15578 dollars
GDP per capita Thailand: 9693 dollars
Even with a steady growth, it would require more than a decade to match the Thailand GDP.
Since you like wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
I also want Indonesia to develop faster and I also beleive in time they will... I know that Indonesian sometimes have the wrong mindset byt I'm sure as education level increases gradually their mindset will also change in time...
What is important here now is to increase the level of education in Indonesia and I know that it will take some process and time...
One difference between the British and Dutch Colonies is that in British Colonies they emphasize on educating the natives and this have been proven in countries such as Malaysia, India, and Singapore... On the other hand the Dutch wasn't even allowing the so called "Inlanders" at that time to join their schools here....
From there we can see that even the Imperialists have different Mindsets....
You don't see what the problem is?
GDP per capita Indonesia: 4668 dollars
GDP per capita Singapore: 59936 dollars
GDP per capita Malaysia: 15578 dollars
GDP per capita Thailand: 9693 dollars
Even with a steady growth, it would require more than a decade to match the Thailand GDP.
Since you like wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita)
GDP per Capita or Income Per Capita can't be used as a measure of a Nations Prosperity everyone knows that even the IMF and World Bank have often repeated that statement...
From that table does it mean that Qatar and Luxembourg is more Prosperous than USA ? Not necessarily... :)
john madden
13-03-12, 14:10
Leadership amongst other things....
Germany went through the same thing too after getting devastated by the Allies in the WW2. There was even a plan called Morgenthau Plan or something, which was designed to deindustrialise the country so that the country would never ever again be a continental power like it had been, but the Allies worried more about the insurgence of communism into the country due to the potential poverty that the plan might bring so they decided to extend the Marshall Plan to Germany (well, West Germany) and now the citizens reach the prosperity level their forefathers rarely felt for decades, with their GDP exceeding that of the UK and France even.
Goal : to catch up with Japan
Variable to change : mindset
What is the mindset now and what should it be changed to? Answer:.......
How to change mindset : education? Thought leadership? anything else?....
Obstacles : What are the obstacles in changing the mindset?
Threats : what are the threats to effect the mindset change?
Weaknesses : what are inherent weakness in Indonesia that makes mindset change difficult?
Most importantly: If all indonesian citizen were to have the right mindset now - then what? What would a changed mindset citizen do to catch up with Japan?
GDP per Capita or Income Per Capita can't be used as a measure of a Nations Prosperity everyone knows that even the IMF and World Bank have often repeated that statement...
From that table does it mean that Qatar and Luxembourg is more Prosperous than USA ? Not necessarily... :)
I thought it was you who bring the GDP in the conversation, not me. "The Indonesian GDP growth is still higher than Malaysia & Singapore and its much-much higher than Thailand... then ???". Why do you discard it now as an argument? In your link in post number 7, I see that Ghana, Turkmenistan, Mongolia and Irak are among the top 5 and above Indonesia in terms of growth. Is that your reference in matter of prosperity and success more than the GDP per capita then?
Most importantly: If all indonesian citizen were to have the right mindset now - then what? What would a changed mindset citizen do to catch up with Japan?
Sudah takdir, pasrah saja kepada Gusti Allah/Tuhan Yesus/........
I thought it was you who bring the GDP in the conversation, not me. "The Indonesian GDP growth is still higher than Malaysia & Singapore and its much-much higher than Thailand... then ???". Why do you discard it now as an argument? In your link in post number 7, I see that Ghana, Turkmenistan, Mongolia and Irak are among the top 5 and above Indonesia in terms of growth. Is that your reference in matter of prosperity and success more than the GDP per capita then?
I reffer GDP Growth as Economic Growth and not as Income Per Capita... Please do read the table I provided you earlier...
The table you provided is for Income per Capita...
Please do read the table I provided you earlier...
The table you provided is for Income per Capita...
You should be reading your own table. The example I gave of Ghana, Turkmenistan, Mongolia and Irak being among the top 5 comes from YOUR table. Hello?
You should be reading your own table. The example I gave of Ghana, Turkmenistan, Mongolia and Irak being among the top 5 comes from YOUR table. Hello?
So its good that they are growing economically right ?
We were talking about Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand right ?
Rick,
Pasrah and takdir mindset is the current mindset. What my question is trying to provoke is "imagine all indonesians suddenly have the right mindset - whatever the right mindset was. Surely that would just be the first step (a pre-requisite) towards catching up with Japan. What would be the second, third and subsequent steps would be?
Sudah takdir, pasrah saja kepada Gusti Allah/Tuhan Yesus/........
Rick,
Pasrah and takdir mindset is the current mindset. What my question is trying to provoke is "imagine all indonesians suddenly have the right mindset - whatever the right mindset was. Surely that would just be the first step (a pre-requisite) towards catching up with Japan. What would be the second, third and subsequent steps would be?
Would mindsets change Overnight ???
Rick,
Pasrah and takdir mindset is the current mindset. What my question is trying to provoke is "imagine all indonesians suddenly have the right mindset - whatever the right mindset was. Surely that would just be the first step (a pre-requisite) towards catching up with Japan. What would be the second, third and subsequent steps would be?
Better sense of governance, discipline --> more money released to the infrastructure that would otherwise be allocated to the crooks' Porsche and simpanan --> stronger growth --> alleviation of social problems brought by poverty etc. etc. But first they have to do the first thing first.
Would mindsets change Overnight ???It hasn't change much in more than 66 years of independence. It's not gonna change overnight.
Would mindsets change Overnight ???
Why not act as if it could? That way even if you miss your target of overnight by 14 times, it would have changed in 14 days. Infinitely better than thinking it can't change overnight so why try.
I can clearly see the change of their mindsets from period prior to the 1998 micro-revolution and today... Maybe there would be other such events in the future that would further change peoples mindsets...
All in all the fact is that it all requires process and time...
No, Mindset will never change overnight. But lets have a thought experiment and imagine if it did. What then?
Would mindsets change Overnight ???
Why not act as if it could? That way even if you miss your target of overnight by 14 times, it would have changed in 14 days. Infinitely better than thinking it can't change overnight so why try.
Because that's not realistic...
No, Mindset will never change overnight. But lets have a thought experiment and imagine if it did. What then?
Even if mindsets could change that fast you're forgetting the fact that Indonesia consists of many different cultures and what makes you think that their mindsets will all change in one direction ???
All in all the fact is that it all requires process and time...
Another 66 years for the next footstep maybe? Indonesia sure will reach a similar state of development as Malaysia or Thailand enjoy at the moment in what? 20 years?
Because that's not realistic...
so what is realistic? Thinking that it can't change over night so you do nothing?
Nah, I'd rather chase a seemingly unrealistic dream than sit in my apartment in the golden triangle of Jakarta.
Sudden and drastic changes could have a good result but it could also have a bad result...
so what is realistic? Thinking that it can't change over night so you do nothing?
Nah, I'd rather chase a seemingly unrealistic dream than sit in my apartment in the golden triangle of Jakarta.
What makes you think that others are doing nothing and only you are doing something ???
I'm not doing anything for Indonesia. I'm doing things for my own personal growth.
And I do think that others are doing nothing, a lot of others. You're Indonesian, what are you doing? Based simply on your thought patterns and mindset here, I don't see anything significant you're doing for Indonesia. Atlantis seems to have a better mindset and affects a lot more Indonesian people in a positive way. <shrug>
My question still stands, and Wombat has clarified it even better.
And that's the problem. Japan is highly nationalistic. People would bleed for their country, for its advancement or else.
Indonesians? Yeah right...
And can you blame them, nay, us? The government hasn't done much but bleed its people dry.
Are we starting from ZERO and trying to develop ourself ?
The Japanese didn't start from ZERO and with help from US could rebuild their cities and industries at no time...
On the other hand.. Indonesia was ZERO and didn't even EXIST before WWII... They (Indonesia) didn't even have the foundation let alone an Industry...
Inspite of all that Indonesia have achieved developments and are still growing at their own pace which is good according to me...
Pre WW2 they were a player, post WW2 it is true they did not have zero, Japan had a debt in terms of war reparations. Not zero, but negative.
The Marshall plan was set up so that debt could be paid, which they were allowed to do in terms of goods and services which led to the strong exporters and manufacturers they are today.
Japan has also lent, given, guaranteed something of the order 40 B USD to Indonesia alone, which I think currently oudstanding is something like 27B
Thailand, Malaysia, received onlty a fraction of that, if you want exact numbers I can ask Mika's father he was directly responsible for administrating all Japanese ODA for 4 years. Interesting that in his retirement ( his third one - seems the work ethic is strong in Japan ) he is still consuting with Thailand, that consultation on how Thailnad can do overseas development. Come a long way those Thais, ......
I'm not doing anything for Indonesia. I'm doing things for my own personal growth.
And I do think that others are doing nothing, a lot of others. You're Indonesian, what are you doing? Based simply on your thought patterns and mindset here, I don't see anything significant you're doing for Indonesia. Atlantis seems to have a better mindset and affects a lot more Indonesian people in a positive way. <shrug>
My question still stands, and Wombat has clarified it even better.
Thats good... I'm sure that others are also doing their own things for their own personal growth in their own ways... :)
When all the personal growths are aggregated then there is a possibility that even the country as a nation will grow further... Thats good... :)
Thats good... I'm sure that others are also doing their own things for their own personal growth in their own ways... :)
When all the personal growths are aggregated then there is a possibility that even the country as a nation will grow further... Thats good... :)
No because personal growth is achieved by trampling on the dreams and hopes of others.
You see Rabbit... The difference between your way of thinking and mine is that I don't judge people... I try to effect people arround me without the need to judge them...
You see growth is a must because without that they will be left behind right... There are many ways to do that and I personally preffer the less confronting ways.... That way I can get more friends than enemies... :)
No because personal growth is achieved by trampling on the dreams and hopes of others.
Not necessarily... Sometime there is a need for others to grow so that you can grow too... That's called Multiplier Effect...
In my business I need others to grow so that I can grow too...
When do I judge?
And yes you're right "growth is a must because without that they will be left behind right" That's the definition of growth. You don't grow, you stay small.
And what are my confrontations? Because I challenge people to rise up and be better? Because I expect each person to be just as capable as the most capable person in the world? Because I see everyone as having the same potential?
Yeah, ok. I'm fine with that.
And do look at the facts that KM provided. That's just from japan alone. USAID and AUSAID have given a lot to Indonesia. C'mon, you don't seem to give Indonesian people any credit, and that includes you, right?
Lumaca: personal growth that I meant is more internal. In a sense of becoming better intellectually, professionally, emotionally, etc. I don't mean personal gains where it's more materialistic.
At the beginning of the 20th century Japan was already a world power. They were strong enough to defeat Russia in the Russo-Japanese War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War), and the event had a tremendous political influence because it was the first major military victory in the modern era of an Asian power over a European nation. Russia lost two out of her three fleets. Where was Indonesia in 1905?
You see, it's not a good comparison at all.
I don't mean it as a one to one comparison but more like If they can do it, why can't Indonesia?
More like me saying, if Michael Jordan can dunk that well, why can't I? Oh, I need the practice, and training, and build up my strength. Sure I'm probably a foot shorter than he is, but if I focus on that, then I wouldn't even be able to play basketball because I wouldn't even try.
Sure I'm probably a foot shorter than he is,
Come on Rabbit, I have met you a foot shorter is a bit of an understatement:second:
I am sorry guys to interrupt, but I am afraid that I am gonna be a party popper and remove one user here... Today is the day I screen the server database. I had a bad surprise an hour ago discovering a shill and it remembered me that I wanted to screen a user named Justmen (http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/22131-What-do-you-call-a-poster-who-never-says-anything-of-substance-on-a-forum?p=235626&viewfull=1#post235626). His writing style and some of his posts remembered me someone. Guess who is he sharing his 3 unique IPs with?
Trolling and Sockpuppeting is a no-no and a sure way to win the "Certified Troll" label. So anyone want to guess who he is? Roysingh, any idea?
Sorry the one to come is a permaban. I will make sure that your IP address are blocked for the future. As I told you in a recent post, I don't care much about tales and discrepancies in your posts, but sockpuppeting is definitively a no-no.
10 inches thank you very much :P
I will also ban Tania. Of course. Sorry for her. She is a victim, but I can't do otherwise.
If Indonesians lived under centuries of harsh military shogunate we might end up the same. I'm sure on a person by person basis the average Indonesian is just as capable as the average Japanese (if raised in identical environments, with equal resources), but a nation is hardly analogous to a person. While we can't always blame the past, no meaningful analysis of a nation can be done without looking at its entire history and other factors (like geography and natural resources). I suggest you pick up Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel) for an overall look at the forces that shape human history.
Sorry big A, I'm a bit confused, who're you banning?
I am also confused. So many words I dont understand "Sockpuppeting" what is that?
Sorry if I appear stupid.
I think he means Roysingh. Since Tania lives in the same place (thus sharing the IP), then an IP ban affects her too.
Sorry big A, I'm a bit confused, who're you banning?
Roysingh.
He's justmen, his sockpuppet that he's used to escape bans and to post here at times. That is indeed funny that I never conducted a IP check on roysingh.:lol:
The 3 IPs justmen used are matching exactly roysingh's IPs and are also matching the one of Roysingh's wife, Tania who registered here first, long ago. The registered date of birth entered in the server by Roysingh is identical for Justmen, which wasn't the smartest thing to do either. If you read justmen's posts, it may bring you a smile and remember you someone.
I also note that Roy has log off soon after I posted my above post. :smile2:
"Sockpuppeting" what is that?
Sorry if I appear stupid.
Sockpuppeting is a common forum term.
Someone who creates and use more than one handle is not welcome in forums, unless a good reason is given to mods/admins (ex: someone who would like to protect his identity, someone who has received threats...etc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
Ok thanks, I understand now..
Actually I expected you to ban him last week, you are very tolerant.
OK, sorry to have chill out the discussion. Go ahead, I have a few settings to modify. :smile2:
Injun: I read GGaS, but I guess I'm still firmly overly optimistic in the power of one. I blieve that a nation is analogous to a person, and more importantly that the individuals that make up a group is more important and more capable than the group. That the individual can escape the external forces that are supposed to have "shaped" him. He can be different than than the environment that have nurtured him.
Now we will never again get to see his completed condo, with designer gear,
Never again get to hear of the great properties he has been offered at such low prices and with such huge potential for profit, and how to avoided taxes.
Never again read his sage advice on investments,
Never again get to hear his views on how indonesia's corruption is so much better than it used to be,
Never again be able to congratulate him on getting inferior rates at the larger banks for his deposited money,
Never again Hear his cries of "foreigners get out, " or " Guilty as charged"
Oh well, ...... guess I can live with it
darn...I was just talking to someone that I kind of miss the little guy when he's gone for too long. Ah well, someone else will come along I'm sure. :D
Injun: I read GGaS, but I guess I'm still firmly overly optimistic in the power of one. I blieve that a nation is analogous to a person, and more importantly that the individuals that make up a group is more important and more capable than the group. That the individual can escape the external forces that are supposed to have "shaped" him. He can be different than than the environment that have nurtured him.
That's why I said on a person by person basis it's much easier to do. If you take 1000 Japanese and 1000 Indonesian babies, pair them, and have each pair raised by the same American family, I'm quite sure the average difference in the personal achievement of the two groups would be insignificant. But, this is what people call a controlled or lab environment. The real world is not a lab nor is it nearly as controlled. To say that 1000 Indonesians in Indonesia can achieve the same feat as 1000 Japanese in Japan in the same time period is unrealistic because it ignores a whole pile of factors that make Indonesia different from Japan today. You can overcome environmental challenges to a certain degree, but you can't overcome them all with sheer will power. While I like being positive, I believe in being real.
So John Madden was right...
Right about?
Injun: I just haven't quite got there yet (if ever)=> "You can overcome environmental challenges to a certain degree, but you can't overcome them all with sheer will power. While I like being positive, I believe in being real. "
I am still optimistic (overly, and often disappointed) that an individual can overcome those challenges. That neither nature nor nurture has the final say in who we are as a person. Only us, the ever changing us that decides who and what we are.
I'm aware of all the help the Japanese received. Just saying that if they can achieve all that (yes, with extra help), why can't Indonesia come to within 20 years of that? or even 30? What makes for the wide gap? Is all Indonesia need the same amount of extra help? In the same amount of time (adjusted for inflation and future value), how much has the Japanese received and how much has Indonesia received?
In short, what extra things would Indonesia need to come up to a level of prosperity and success that is Japan today? I'm not interested in what enable Japan to have leap frogged Indonesia. But what would enable Indonesia to catch up. Big difference in thought process there.
Any comparisons between Indonesia and Japan is fruitless simply because Japan was a world power for quite a long time BEFORE WWII.
I found it interesting in comparing Shanghai of early 1990's with Jakarta, Jakarta during that same time period was more modern and advanced than Shanghai. However if you compare Jakarta to Shanghai today there is no comparison as Jakarta has almost stood still while Shanghai took off like a rocket.
How was it possible for Shanghai and China in general to take off while Jakarta and Indonesia virtually stood still? Attitude. Ask any Chinese what they think of China's future and they will say we will make China number 1. Ask any Indonesian what they think of Indonesian's future and they will say too much corruption, we can't compete, we can't this, we can't do that...can't can't can't.
Indonesia has a closed door policy towards foreign investment and foreigners working when compared to China. China wanted to move state run industry and businesses to the private sector. Indonesia wants to shield private industry and businesses from foreign investment.
With China opening the door to foreign investment allowed Chinese to learn and develop their own businesses in competition with the foreign businesses. Simply put, China development was paid for by others and now China has the advantage.
It seems the Indonesian government and the businesses it protects are short-sighted and do not see beyond the here and now to what the future could be. Indonesia took the easy road by selling its natural resources which is something China did not do. BTW China government is just as corrupt as Indonesia's, if not more, how else are the Chinese government officials so wealthy (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-28/china-s-billionaire-congress-makes-its-u-s-peer-look-poor.html)?
Vietnam is now taking off in as much as China did in the 1990's and is expected to be another industrial powerhouse.
Looking at China and Vietnam, perhaps Indonesia today would have been better off if it was a communist Indonesia before. :lol:
Now we will never again get to see his completed condo, with designer gear,
Never again get to hear of the great properties he has been offered at such low prices and with such huge potential for profit, and how to avoided taxes.
Never again read his sage advice on investments,
Never again get to hear his views on how indonesia's corruption is so much better than it used to be,
Never again be able to congratulate him on getting inferior rates at the larger banks for his deposited money,
Never again Hear his cries of "foreigners get out, " or " Guilty as charged"
Oh well, ...... guess I can live with it
Oh! dear!....is it true...he was dishonest?...'coz I just apologised to him for something that I said....but could not prove.
I guess he deleted the evidence I searched.
Well good riddance...I believe in debate......but genuine honest debate.
I feel I've been naive and been deceived........would it be ethical to delete my apology?
Right about?
This (http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/22208-Isolation-and-or-protection?p=236114&viewfull=1#post236114).
Tiz: I wasn't comparing Indonesia and japan. I know full well of the difference of circumstances. What I am trying to say is if someone else can, why can't Indonesia? What's holding it back?
Tiz: I wasn't comparing Indonesia and japan. I know full well of the difference of circumstances. What I am trying to say is if someone else can, why can't Indonesia? What's holding it back?
Oooo ok, sorry that's how I read it.
Did you read my reasons why Indonesia is stagnated?
Indonesia cannot develop as other countries because of the "Can't do" attitude and short-sightedness protection of Indonesian industries from foreign competition.
As I pointed out, perhaps Indonesia would be a rich country today had it been a communist country after independence from the Dutch.
Right about?Injun: I just haven't quite got there yet (if ever)=> "You can overcome environmental challenges to a certain degree, but you can't overcome them all with sheer will power. While I like being positive, I believe in being real. "I am still optimistic (overly, and often disappointed) that an individual can overcome those challenges. That neither nature nor nurture has the final say in who we are as a person. Only us, the ever changing us that decides who and what we are.Neither nature or nurture has the final say, but combined they do. Our behavior is a product of our genes and our environment, nothing more, nothing less. Every single person, book, object, and basically experience you encounter in your life shapes your perspective of the world. If I were raised as you, the only difference between me and you would be our inborn characters.
the only difference between me and you would be our inborn characters.
That's where we differ. I'm not sure which is right, but I have decided to believe that we can defy the product of our nature and nurture.
I used to think that what we are as a person is "predetermined" by everything we've experienced. We can only be the way we are by having experienced what we, as an individual, have gone through.
However, something changed in me in the last few years. It seems to me that it's more productive to assume and to think that I can defy anything and that I can do anything. Even if it makes no sense. Almost like aiming for the stars so that even if I fail I still reached the sky kind of thinking.
Between you and I it's not an argument, at least not from my side. I don't think you're wrong, just that I chose to choose a different path.
Tihzho: yes I read your reasoning. But, and here's where my mindset is quite unusual, the reasoning of why Indonesia is where they are today is not that relevant. Except to study and to learn from. What I think is more of forward looking attitude is to question what is needed for Indonesia to reach its full potential.
There is a rather simplistic but pretty good comparison: Malaysia. The culture (and the language) is actually closer than both countries willing to admit, down to the ugly tendencies. An Indonesian friend of mine used to complain about certain unsavory attitudes of ours by calling it "melayu", which I think is uncomfortably accurate. If Indonesia's history is identical to Malaysia's, then our economy would be at a similar level of progress. I'll give you a slight hint: Rule of Law.
Tihzho: yes I read your reasoning. But, and here's where my mindset is quite unusual, the reasoning of why Indonesia is where they are today is not that relevant. Except to study and to learn from. What I think is more of forward looking attitude is to question what is needed for Indonesia to reach its full potential.
From my view point what Indonesia needs is foreign investment in industries.
Additionally or alternatively Indonesia needs Casinos, Bali being the first choice and one at Ancol. This would bring billions of dollars into Indonesia while enticing Indonesians to not go to to Singapore, Malaysia and China to gamble. It's ridiculous for Indonesia to claim gambling is haraam and therefore is not allowed while Indonesia has other haraam industies, alcohol and pork to name just two. There is a lesson to be learned from Malaysia with this. ;)
That's where we differ. I'm not sure which is right, but I have decided to believe that we can defy the product of our nature and nurture. I used to think that what we are as a person is "predetermined" by everything we've experienced. We can only be the way we are by having experienced what we, as an individual, have gone through.However, something changed in me in the last few years. It seems to me that it's more productive to assume and to think that I can defy anything and that I can do anything. Even if it makes no sense. Almost like aiming for the stars so that even if I fail I still reached the sky kind of thinking. Between you and I it's not an argument, at least not from my side. I don't think you're wrong, just that I chose to choose a different path.And that change of attitude must be triggered by something, a combined interaction of you and your environment. Perhaps it was a particularly inspiring speech, or a new profound knowledge, or a sudden epiphany when the last piece of the puzzle falls into place after a couple of decades of searching. We don't live in a vacuum, so our ideas (even the concept that "nothing is impossible") must come from somewhere. Well, unless you believe in the supernatural and divine intervention, in which case scientific discussion is irrelevant.
Ahhh...
I've missed Japan with all of their orderly routines and predictable events....
It is still hard to adjust life in Indonesia even years after I'm so used to Japanese's system of living
There is a rather simplistic but pretty good comparison: Malaysia. The culture (and the language) is actually closer than both countries willing to admit, down to the ugly tendencies. An Indonesian friend of mine used to complain about certain unsavory attitudes of ours by calling it "melayu", which I think is uncomfortably accurate. If Indonesia's history is identical to Malaysia's, then our economy would be at a similar level of progress. I'll give you a slight hint: Rule of Law.
The British colonial system (considering Malaya/Singapore) was no different to any other colonizing power.
The difference is, during the process of 'rape and pillage' the British saw a sense of fair play, after all......they invented cricket.....didn't they.:rockon:
Subsequently, overtime, 'Colonial Power' was in decline and a more congenial approach was required to still 'rape and pillage' but appear to be benevolent. Where do you think Singapore's PM Lee KY got his idea from.
WW2 effectively saw the end of all UK Colonies. It also meant the independance of the Dutch East Indies, now Indonesia. The difference is Britain (in her colonies) had already established Law and Order, Justice systems, Constitution under the British Monarchy, a Parliament and a Civil Service based on the Westminster Model which, more or less, survives today.
Indonesia, on the other hand had nothing....they had to start from a revolutionary attitude and a violent history.
IMO this does not excuse that, for the last 60 years, they should not have evolved better. Indonesia is a rich country...it is poorly managed; but they had a dictatorship and religious differences and a diverse population to contend with...this makes such a hugely populated country difficult to simply maintain unity.
I agree with most members that Indonesia really should wake up and seize its new opportunities but......religious intolerance, low science and technical skill education, corruption, lack of expertise and silly national pride will probably prevent it competing with other Asian Nations who have less natural resources, unless a new attitude and leadership is found.
A country can be measured and experienced in more ways than one. Economy is just one aspect of it. I've spent time in Japan, and even spoke intermediate-level Japanese at one point. I could have stayed there on a business visa, but I chose Indonesia, and I never regretted that. I have an expat friend with similar experience.
Japan is undoubtedly more developed economically, but are the people there really happier than in Indonesia? Why do young people there refuse to start families and have children? From a sociological point of view, plummeting birth rates indicate a lack of faith in the system and one's place in it.
Indonesia's diversity is a curse and a blessing. It's a blessing because it makes it an exciting place to live. It's a curse because such countries usually have a hard time developing. It's a bit unfair to compare it to Japan which is culturally homogeneous.
I don't buy all the excuses 'we were colonized..' So was Vietnam. After that, they were razed to the ground in the 60s, still came back and developing quickly. Not much US aid there, eh?
Indonesia doesn't have that kind of cultural and mental heritage, and I don't expect it will ever truly develop, but it is rich in other ways. I talk to all of my neighbors, be they Javanese, Bataknese, Chinese or Padang. My kid walks in freely in all the houses in my area. She is welcomed and cuddled everywhere we go. I've spent time in Japan, and I know I wouldn't get that there. I would never trade that for the latest iPad or an upgraded LED TV.
Aye, we also had bad luck with our leaders. Certain events also have led Indonesia to be one of the most (blatantly) racist countries in the world.
From a sociological point of view, plummeting birth rates indicate a lack of faith in the system and one's place in it.
I agree. Another characteristic of this is the suicide rate in Japan, one of the highest in the world.
I agree. Another characteristic of this is the suicide rate in Japan, one of the highest in the world.
I'd say that's down to the increasing sense of individualism, that raising children is crap blablabla, even though they're clearly more resourceful than us Indonesians, not to mention the state aids.
Indonesia's diversity is a curse and a blessing. It's a blessing because it makes it an exciting place to live. It's a curse because such countries usually have a hard time developing. It's a bit unfair to compare it to Japan which is culturally homogeneous.
That depends on how a country perceives its diversity I think. It can either use it as a tool to amaze foreigners how diversity can unite a country (as is the case in the US, where the people can elect a black president, despite his views being too liberal to some), or it can condemn its own diversity to the disgust of the outsiders i.e. racism. The US and Canada can thrive too with such heterogeneous societies.
The British colonial system (considering Malaya/Singapore) was no different to any other colonizing power.The difference is, during the process of 'rape and pillage' the British saw a sense of fair play, after all......they invented cricket.....didn't they.:rockon: It is different enough to notice. I'm not arguing that Imperial Britain was a saint, it's just that they had a different system. Perhaps it was set up as a way to rule more effectively and efficiently (Rule of Law does create stability), but it had an unintended side effect of preparing the natives for self governance.
Subsequently, overtime, 'Colonial Power' was in decline and a more congenial approach was required to still 'rape and pillage' but appear to be benevolent. Where do you think Singapore's PM Lee KY got his idea from.WW2 effectively saw the end of all UK Colonies. It also meant the independance of the Dutch East Indies, now Indonesia. The difference is Britain (in her colonies) had already established Law and Order, Justice systems, Constitution under the British Monarchy, a Parliament and a Civil Service based on the Westminster Model which, more or less, survives today.Indonesia, on the other hand had nothing....they had to start from a revolutionary attitude and a violent history.Britain saw the writing on the wall and let her colonies go in relative peace. The Netherlands wanted to retain every last bit of her Indies and to return it to pre-WWII conditions, so Indonesian Republicans had to gain independence by force, leading to years of war and violence.
IMO this does not excuse that, for the last 60 years, they should not have evolved better. Indonesia is a rich country...it is poorly managed; but they had a dictatorship and religious differences and a diverse population to contend with...this makes such a hugely populated country difficult to simply maintain unity.Nobody is going to argue against the notion that Indonesia is poorly managed. Soekarno had visions of grandeur and he would rather starve his people rather than compromise his ideals. Soeharto was mildly effective in developing Indonesia, but the system of corruption that he put in place to keep people beholden to him is still hurting us to this day. At the very least Soeharto (by force) created the sense that Indonesia is one, and set up a powerful central government that could implement change more effectively. Habibie came and undid three decades worth of this effort at unity with a stroke of a pen (regional autonomy law). When corruption is centralized, it is easier to eradicate because you have a few big targets. Sri Mulyani proved as much with her Ministry of Finance. But when each kabupaten is corrupt and they have full autonomy, it becomes a very difficult task.
I agree with most members that Indonesia really should wake up and seize its new opportunities but......religious intolerance, low science and technical skill education, corruption, lack of expertise and silly national pride will probably prevent it competing with other Asian Nations who have less natural resources, unless a new attitude and leadership is found.It's kinda like the chicken and the egg. Low quality education creates less informed citizens, who will in turn elect bad leaders, whose incompetence generally perpetuate the low quality of education.
Habibie came and undid three decades worth of this effort at unity with a stroke of a pen (regional autonomy law). When corruption is centralized, it is easier to eradicate because you have a few big targets. Sri Mulyani proved as much with her Ministry of Finance. But when each kabupaten is corrupt and they have full autonomy, it becomes a very difficult task.
Without the decentralization law, I think that Indonesia would have experienced what the balkans have experienced in Europe some time ago. I live in one of those region where, without the decentralization law, people would have seize the opportunity to say to the central government to take a hike with potential dramatic consequences.
I think that the decentralization law has complicated the problem of corruption by splitting the corruption among an increasing number of actors, but I don't think that it has amplified the corruption in itself. It has just shared the corruption cake in between more hungry pockets.
And this is the vicious circle the OP is trying to break with the question of what kind of breakthrough must it take to lift Indonesia out of it.
It's kinda like the chicken and the egg. Low quality education creates less informed citizens, who will in turn elect bad leaders, whose incompetence generally perpetuate the low quality of education.
When corruption is centralized, it is easier to eradicate because you have a few big targets. Sri Mulyani proved as much with her Ministry of Finance. But when each kabupaten is corrupt and they have full autonomy, it becomes a very difficult task. It's kinda like the chicken and the egg. Low quality education creates less informed citizens, who will in turn elect bad leaders, whose incompetence generally perpetuate the low quality of education.
KPK should do more Tanjung Priok port-style raids...
Without the decentralization law, I think that Indonesia would have experienced what the balkans have experienced in Europe some time ago. I live in one of those region where, without the decentralization law, people would have seize the opportunity to say to the central government to take a hike with potential dramatic consequences.
I think that the decentralization law has complicated the problem of corruption by splitting the corruption among an increasing number of actors, but I don't think that it has amplified the corruption in itself. It has just shared the corruption cake in between more hungry pockets.
I'm not so sure about balkanization. Soeharto might be gone, but his military was still very much intact. Habibie could have gone half way by setting up a more equitable distribution of revenue between the central and regional governments, while retaining overall control. It's always about money after all.
Today there are two sets of rules that are often contradictory (even though they're not supposed to): national and local. The central government can be proactive economically by inviting foreign investment through the BKPM, which was intended to be a one-stop-shop. With decentralization there is no one-stop-shop because each kabupaten can do whatever the hell they please. Then there's the political pandering that fosters laws catering to more fundamentalist interpretations of Islam. The majority of shariah-influenced laws come from politicians belonging to nationalist rather than Islamic parties, which shows that they are only interested in establishing a pious image rather than actually believing it.
http://asiafoundation.org/resources/pdfs/ShariaRegulations08RobinBush.pdf
(http://asiafoundation.org/resources/pdfs/ShariaRegulations08RobinBush.pdf)
ponyexpress
14-03-12, 11:12
If you want to make a comparison, then we should pick up any countries that have gone through authoritarian periods then were democratised. In Indonesian case, the old players survived by penetrating into democratic institutions.
PE,
Can you name examples of "old players"?
Wombat
If you want to make a comparison, then we should pick up any countries that have gone through authoritarian periods then were democratised. In Indonesian case, the old players survived by penetrating into democratic institutions.
PE,
Can you name examples of "old players"?
Wombat
One of them goes in the local newspapers by the initial of AU...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.12 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.