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I've just found this site about Bahasa Indonesia, and I must say I'm impressed with the quality. I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise, considering the caliber of scholars writing the articles there.
http://bahasakita.com/
monkey_queen
04-01-12, 12:58
Nice Info Mr. Injun http://www.laymark.com/l/m/m098.gif (http://www.laymark.com)
Puspawarna
04-01-12, 13:51
Great link, thanks - I am going to pass that on to my Indonesian editor colleagues. Though actually I think it is more valuable to me as a non-native speaker, and I plan to explore the site more fully.
I will read what they say about "English is changing Indonesian" - it sounds quite interesting. There is no agreement among the Indonesians I work with on whether "di mana" is an acceptable conjunction now. Some translators like to use it when the English source material says "in which", but this construction drives some of the copyeditors crazy! (Then there is the whole question of when it should be "dimana" and when it should be "di mana ... as a foreigner with only modest Indonesian language skills, I have no opinion on this.)
travellingchez
04-01-12, 14:18
Thanks for the link. There are some interesting articles.
Great link, thanks - I am going to pass that on to my Indonesian editor colleagues. Though actually I think it is more valuable to me as a non-native speaker, and I plan to explore the site more fully.
I will read what they say about "English is changing Indonesian" - it sounds quite interesting. There is no agreement among the Indonesians I work with on whether "di mana" is an acceptable conjunction now. Some translators like to use it when the English source material says "in which", but this construction drives some of the copyeditors crazy! (Then there is the whole question of when it should be "dimana" and when it should be "di mana ... as a foreigner with only modest Indonesian language skills, I have no opinion on this.)
According to the Pedoman Umum Ejaan Bahasa Indonesia yang Disempurnakan (General Guidelines for Perfected Indonesian Spelling) "di mana" is the correct form and "dimana" is always wrong.
http://id.wikisource.org/wiki/Pedoman_Umum_Ejaan_Bahasa_Indonesia_yang_Disempurn akan#E._Suku_Kata
Here's the kicker: according to this wikipedia article, the use of "di mana" as a translation of "in which" is improper. The correct Indonesian preposition is "yang", and the sentence should be rearranged accordingly. I agree, the use of "yang" would make the sentence sound more natural and flow better in Indonesian.
http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preposisi
Interesting link, thanks.
I just read this article about "You" avoidance.
http://bahasakita.com/2011/06/18/you-avoidance/
It is true that Indonesians often go to great lengths to avoid using the second person pronoun. The standard "anda" is practically used only in very formal situations, while "kamu" and "engkau / kau" are used among friends and relatives of the same age or toward children. There's a gap between anda and kamu, and unfortunately most daily situations fall into this void.
The common approaches are:
1. Eliminate the 2nd person pronoun altogether, like "Mau ke mana?"
2. Substitute with 3rd person pronoun, like "Rumahnya di mana?"
3. Substitute with honorific, like "Bapak mau makan?"
4. Substitute with proper name, like "Hasan sudah mandi?"
5. Substitute with demonstrative, like "Situ mau beli?"
6. Use 2nd person pronoun from a different language, like "You bisa datang kapan?"
The first person pronoun suffers from similar problem where there's a gulf between "saya" and "aku". To make the matter more complicated, Javanese people try to avoid "aku" because in their language it is the lowest form of first person pronoun used only with close friends / relatives and subordinates. Many kids in Java are still taught to not refer to himself/herself as "aku" and to use proper name out of humility.
I think your familiarity with Indonesian language & culture can be judged by your use (or disuse) of first and second person pronouns.
Injun, yes I try to avoid 2nd person pronouns at all costs and use the techniques you've listed, but I don't quite understand no. 5....
bow chicka wow wow
05-01-12, 16:38
Thanks for the link, Injun. As an Indonesian living abroad, I find the website an extremely good read.
travellingchez
05-01-12, 16:40
Another good website is http://www.indonesian-online.com/ It has resources for all levels of Indonesian language learners.
Hi Kelly,
Injun will answer you more precisely, but meantime please allow me to try.
"Situ mau beli ?". This 'situ' actually means 'there', came from 'di situ' (or it that disitu ?).
Yes, its often use for substitute of 'You avoidance' when one feels it would fit best with it. It would be impolite to put 'kamu' in there, it would odd to put name in there, and too formal to put 'Anda' while to put 'Bapak' or 'Ibu' sounds too honorific.
Lets give an example.
I would say to Injun : "Injun, situ mau ke Surabaya gak ?". I'd feel impolite to say 'kamu' to him since he is older than me, too odd to put his name in it (feels childish if I'm doing so), and no way I would say 'Bapak' to him. :tongue:
But be noted, this 'situ' is aint formal language. And mostly use in verbal conversation, whilst I have never read it written.
Thanks for your explanation Alia. :).... But you could still just say "Injun, mau ke Surabaya gak?" right? Is it slightly more polite to use situ?
Also, Alia or Injun, technique no. 2 using -nya particle....this is still polite? eg Anaknya berapa? or Namanya siapa?
Sometimes i feel I'm being a little rude using it.....
bow chicka wow wow
05-01-12, 17:01
I personally don't like using the word 'situ' as I also find it slightly impolite.
Correct Kelly, I could just say "Injun, mau ke Surabaya gak ?". This could also works.
But sometimes, not all the time, we can feel something is missing there. There should be 'kamu' or other substitutes. And actually putting 'situ' in there should act as a complement. Is it slightly more polite to use 'situ' ? Not necessarily. I would say, this is when we need to feel if this 'situ' is really necessary or not, because it could be taken wrongly if you say that to wrong person.
Bow Chicka finds it slightly impolite, thats true. So, if you want to use 'situ', make sure the person you call 'situ' wont object (nooooo, I'm kidding because I lost words .. hahaha..), make sure that there is no other substitute that fits for him/her ( but better use it only for men, I think they are not as sensitive as we are).
Oh, about "Anaknya berapa ?", or "Namanya siapa ?" thats all right, no need to feel that you being a little rude. Its very common in the conversation to change 'mu' with 'nya'.
bow chicka wow wow
05-01-12, 17:28
Normally if I'm not sure which pronoun to use, I will use their name instead.
For example: Mbak Alia sudah mandi belum?
:D
Injun, yes I try to avoid 2nd person pronouns at all costs and use the techniques you've listed, but I don't quite understand no. 5....Of all the techniques I don't favor no. 5 and 6, but I have to list them because they are being used. Alia has explained it well, the word "situ" stands for "di situ" (over there). That word is slightly less polite than the first four, but it is still more polite than "kamu". As always, your tone makes a difference. If you use "situ" with a nice and friendly voice, then people are not gonna be offended. In contrast a total stranger will most likely be offended if you use "kamu" or "kau" even if you use a polite tone.
Also, Alia or Injun, technique no. 2 using -nya particle....this is still polite? eg Anaknya berapa? or Namanya siapa?Sometimes i feel I'm being a little rude using it.....The third person -nya is actually perfectly safe and neutral. If you feel you need to be more polite, then use honorifics like bapak, ibu, mas, mbak, bang, non, etc.
Another good website is http://www.indonesian-online.com/ It has resources for all levels of Indonesian language learners.That is a good site. The site owner, Dr. Uli Kozok, also contributes to Bahasa Kita.
The first person pronoun suffers from similar problem where there's a gulf between "saya" and "aku". To make the matter more complicated, Javanese people try to avoid "aku" because in their language it is the lowest form of first person pronoun used only with close friends / relatives and subordinates. Many kids in Java are still taught to not refer to himself/herself as "aku" and to use proper name out of humility.
I think your familiarity with Indonesian language & culture can be judged by your use (or disuse) of first and second person pronouns.
Hi there! I'm a new member, one-time expat in Jakarta (Puri Indah 2006 - 2009), now back in Oz. Finally I have found someone who agrees with something I have tried to tell others for a long time now. I first learnt of this 'aku-saya gulf' back in my days in Central Java in the 1990s. In 2005 when I was writing a university dissertation on Indonesian usage among speakers of Javanese in Central Java, I made this exact point that Injun makes, and yet, within the circle of academics, I was told I was wrong - that aku, in Indonesian, is no different from 'saya'. I have always maintained that amongst Javanese there is a difference even when they speak Indonesian.
Hi there! I'm a new member, one-time expat in Jakarta (Puri Indah 2006 - 2009), now back in Oz. Finally I have found someone who agrees with something I have tried to tell others for a long time now. I first learnt of this 'aku-saya gulf' back in my days in Central Java in the 1990s. In 2005 when I was writing a university dissertation on Indonesian usage among speakers of Javanese in Central Java, I made this exact point that Injun makes, and yet, within the circle of academics, I was told I was wrong - that aku, in Indonesian, is no different from 'saya'. I have always maintained that amongst Javanese there is a difference even when they speak Indonesian.Well, they are wrong because they obviously know nothing about Javanese. Javanese language is hierarchical, and it's virtually divided into three languages, each having its own grammar and vocabulary. The word "aku" is the first pronoun in the informal form (ngoko), while "kula" is the intermediate form (madya) and "dalem" is the formal (krama). A Javanese only uses "aku" to a subordinate (like a parent to a child) or among close friends, otherwise it is rude.
naughtygab
31-01-12, 21:01
Injun, please allow me to add a bit
the javanese ngoko version is between friends/ about the same age people , and also for some words there are ngoko alus and ngoko kasar. if a 5th grader talk to a 8th grader, he should use the ngoko kasar, but does not have to use the krama inggil version.
krama, is used by kids to talk to their parents/younger to older/ worker to boss. 'Kulo' is the appropriate word to say 'me"
Dalem is only used for commoners talking to King/God. it would not be used between youngers to the elder. When a commoner talk to the king, kulo is not really acceptable. could be taken that he less respect the king.
Well, they are wrong because they obviously know nothing about Javanese. Javanese language is hierarchical, and it's virtually divided into three languages, each having its own grammar and vocabulary. The word "aku" is the first pronoun in the informal form (ngoko), while "kula" is the intermediate form (madya) and "dalem" is the formal (krama). A Javanese only uses "aku" to a subordinate (like a parent to a child) or among close friends, otherwise it is rude.
I think the academias have anglicised the concept of Bahasa's first singular person. Defo wrong, refer to yourself as "gw" and call the president with "lu" and you'll get booted real soon.
Injun, please allow me to add a bit the javanese ngoko version is between friends/ about the same age people , and also for some words there are ngoko alus and ngoko kasar. if a 5th grader talk to a 8th grader, he should use the ngoko kasar, but does not have to use the krama inggil version. krama, is used by kids to talk to their parents/younger to older/ worker to boss. 'Kulo' is the appropriate word to say 'me" Dalem is only used for commoners talking to King/God. it would not be used between youngers to the elder. When a commoner talk to the king, kulo is not really acceptable. could be taken that he less respect the king.You're right. Just a minor difference in my family: my parents taught me to address myself as "dalem" to them, to my uncles and aunts, and especially to my grandpa & grandma. Maybe they still wish to respect their aristocratic heritage. Me, I don't care much about it since I speak to them in Indonesian anyway :D
The point is that a Javanese doesn't use "aku" to total strangers, even when he's speaking in Indonesian.
Needless to say, I went ahead and included the point about the 'aku - saya' distinciton in my dissertation. It basically was the crux of my contention that when Javanese speak Indonesian, they don't suddenly cease being Javanese, but rather, they speak Indonesian as Javanese.
As for Dalem, interestingly, it was commonly used in my wife's household (wong Solotigo), when responding to her father. She now uses it when she responds to our 6 year old:
Child: 'Mummy!'
Mother: "Dalem"
There's a Javanese term for this, but I can't remember what it is, that is, addressing young children in Kromo / Kromo Inggil in order to guide them in proper behaviour. They are hardly an aritocratic family however, but a family of painters, artists and musicians.
Anyway, it just goes to show that Indonesian potentially is fraught with difficulties and hence the common perception that Indonesian is an egalitarian language (and an easy language) ain't necessarily true.
On the original point of this thread, the site BahasaKita, I really like Tim Hassal's article on Thanking:
http://bahasakita.com/2011/05/03/to-thank-or-not-to-thank-in-indonesian/
Cheers,
DavidG
naughtygab
01-02-12, 08:21
"dalem" could also be understood as "apa?" .. actually it came from "yes i'm here "( forgot the complete sentence ...) but then they shorten it to 'dalem'
My maid still use "inggih, dalem" everytime my mom call her
but to a 6 years old, it should not be done. there's a story about misusing the krama inggil
during war the king decided to hide his new born son and one of his maid accept the responsibility. for years this kid grew up with the other kids that the servant had. to the other kids she spoke like the normal society, except to the king's son. the story ended as everything was revealed and the king's son is taken by the opponent
As for Dalem, interestingly, it was commonly used in my wife's household (wong Solotigo), when responding to her father. She now uses it when she responds to our 6 year old:
Child: 'Mummy!'
Mother: "Dalem"
There's a Javanese term for this, but I can't remember what it is, that is, addressing young children in Kromo / Kromo Inggil in order to guide them in proper behaviour. They are hardly an aritocratic family however, but a family of painters, artists and musicians.
Anyway, it just goes to show that Indonesian potentially is fraught with difficulties and hence the common perception that Indonesian is an egalitarian language (and an easy language) ain't necessarily true.
On the original point of this thread, the site BahasaKita, I really like Tim Hassal's article on Thanking:
http://bahasakita.com/2011/05/03/to-thank-or-not-to-thank-in-indonesian/
Cheers,
DavidG
"dalem" ...but to a 6 years old, it should not be done.
Yes it is certainly true that you would not address a younger person with dalem such as in a statement like 'Dalem badhe nedha sapunika' to pluck an arbitrary example out of the air.
However, in this case, I think there is a difference between inappropriate use of high level language to a younger person in the course of normal conversation, and my example above which I learnt was a common form of education through example.
While in Central Java, I once asked why I often heard adults speaking to young children but using Kromo that should ordinarily only be used by the chilld to the adult. Their response was that they are providing the child with an example of how they should later address adults.
See also this abstract:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/30027978
which states, ''Children are spoken to in the forms they are expected to use to address their status superiors/elders'.'
Yes, in this case, dalem coud be translated to apa or 'I am here', and it is interesting to note that my father-in-law, if called to by another adult , would soemtimes respond, not with Dalem, but with Kula.
Needless to say, I went ahead and included the point about the 'aku - saya' distinciton in my dissertation. It basically was the crux of my contention that when Javanese speak Indonesian, they don't suddenly cease being Javanese, but rather, they speak Indonesian as Javanese.I think the distinction is obvious to anyone who spent more than one hour studying Javanese. One of the first things they would teach you is the proper way to address yourself and others. If a scholar of Indonesian studies or linguistics doesn't understand this, then I doubt that his credentials are current.
In my opinion the Indonesian "saya" is derived from "hamba sahaya", which means servant or slave. In Indonesian the word "hamba" is still used today to refer to yourself when addressing deities in a prayer. The humility level of "saya" is somewhat comparable to the Javanese "dalem". So, a Javanese has the equivalent of "dalem" and "aku" in Indonesian but nothing for the intermediate "kula", hence the gulf. Since Javanese people make up about 40% of Indonesian population, their influence to Indonesian language and custom is considerable, especially since their percentage is even higher in central government.
Every ethnic group brings its own style to the way it uses the national language, this is quite obvious when you listen to the different regional dialects. It used to be a staple of Indonesian comedy, and it probably still is.
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