View Full Version : Your email, username and your posts. Who owns them?
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 11:42
Atlantis created a poll recently. He asked if the site owner(s) should delete our posts if we so wish. Although it is interesting to gather such an opinion, it really doesn't matter in terms of law. Opinions don't make the law.
I hold the minority vote. However, I am not interested in deleting my posts. I am interested to know what the law states on the issue. I'm not a law expert by any stretch of the imagination, and I would love to hear what someone knowledgeable about US law would say on the matter. The forum is stationed in US, so US law applies to it. This is my understanding. It could be international law.
I haven't noticed anywhere on the site text or an agreement that states that the forum owns our posts. I think the issue should be made clear while we register, or in a Terms and Conditions. Again, I might have missed something. If you saw such a text or agreement, please let me know.
Most sites permit you to delete your posts. Facebook does. It can be a chore to do manually, but there are some programmes that can do this for you automatically. I assume that if it wasn't required by US law to let users delete their posts, Facebook wouldn't indulge. They are not known for making such things easy or doable unless they really have to.
Here are my hypothesis on the issue. WARNING - I am not a law expert, and I would love someone who is to clarify the matter.
Hypothesis - You own the posts
This would mean that you could ask for them to be deleted.
Hypothesis - Site owns the posts
Now, let us assume that the site is legally allowed to prevent a user from deleting his posts. Does this mean that the site owns the posts in question? If it does, then it can be assumed that it also owns our emails and can thus sell them if it so wished. Many would be ready to pay for a list of Indonesian expat emails.
Hypothesis - posts are in the public domain
If, instead, the site does not own the posts, but we can't ask for them to be deleted, then we have to assume they are in the public domain. If we owned them, we could demand that they be deleted.
If the are in the public domain we must ask ourselves what type of license they are under. Since the site has advertisement, it seems that they couldn't be under a Creative Commons Licence since this licence doesn't allow the use of public domain material to make money.
We have to assume a type of GPL license, meaning that the posts are in the public domain, and that they can be used to make money.
This opens a huge can of worms. I could copy Atlantis's posts and make a book that I then could sell to make money. I could use usernames and posts in works of fiction.
- - -
The main argument is that it is childish to delete our posts since this would delete information that can be used by future readers of the forum. True indeed. However, this information is provided freely by a poster, and it is a thus a privilege given to the forum. The forum makes money with freely available content.
I would argue that it shows respect to a user who has provided free content to allow him to delete it. The site will have profited from the content for the time that it was available. This is already a big advantage.
I would argue that the forum should have contracts with users who are considered extremely valuable posters. Atlantis comes to mind.
- - -
I'm interested to know your opinion on the issue, especially if you have knowledge concerning US copyright laws.
- Would it bother you if your username of contents of your posts be used in works of fiction?
- Would it bother you if someone made a book with your suggestions and help given on the forum?
- Would it bother you if the site sold your email address to others?
I ask for two reasons:
1) Interest.
2) I have contact with publishers and might be interested in writing works using content from this site. Or course, I would only do this if it is not prohibited by law.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
USA copyright law is not applicable globally, therfore your posting is meaningless.......again
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 12:08
Living in Indonesia forums are served from US. This does not matter? If not, why do sites like FaceBook even bother with a Terms and Conditions explaining the laws with which you abide by registering.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
Sky Garden
06-03-11, 12:14
As I just posted on the other thread any user can delete any of their own posts at any time, which kinda takes away a large part of your argument. The only time I am not sure if you are able to do this is if you are banned.
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 12:16
Do you think a user should be allowed to delete his posts after he has been banned, in the same way that Facebook allows you to?
Do you think a clear Terms and Conditions should be created about these issues?
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
Regardless of site rules, it's unreasonable to own the words of a poster. Any poster should have the freedom to delete anything they have written or added to a forum.
For instance, I've been talking to a UK mag about some of my photos. If posting them allowed free use by the forum, or maybe even its members, that means they are lost as my property.
That's the main reason I deleted the thread but it went a lot earlier than I wanted as I can't delete a thread if banned as I expected to be at that time.
Even though the photos are available easily, they are mine, no one else's. Anyone using them should ask first.
You mentioned email addresses. I wonder if a marketing company would pay for those addresses if the forum was free to sell them on. I wouldn't think much of my inbox getting spammed with crap sent by companies the forum had passed my details to. I believe I would reply with something very rude making it clear I had no interest. If I knew how they had got my address, I would add something specific and derogatory about that source and how the marketing company had wasted their money by buying that information.
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 12:21
You mentioned email addresses. I wonder if a marketing company would pay for those addresses if the forum was free to sell them on. I wouldn't think much of my inbox getting spammed with crap sent by companies the forum had passed my details to. I believe I would reply with something very rude making it clear I had no interest. If I knew how they had got my address, I would add something specific and derogatory about that source and how the marketing company had wasted their money by buying that information.
I know companies that buy such lists. I'm often asked about it as a expat web designer. True, most users would delete emails sent this way, but some wouldn't. Once you have such a list, it takes two seconds to send thousands of emails to potential interested parties. Spam on the Internet starts this way.
As I just posted on the other thread any user can delete any of their own posts at any time, which kinda takes away a large part of your argument. The only time I am not sure if you are able to do this is if you are banned.
Alright. So you can delete your posts or threads one by one. However, I still think it would be fair to be able to demand the site owner(s) to delete them all at the touch of a button if you so wished. If you own them, this should be your right.
Erasing them all with on SQL query would be easy enough. Something like:
UPDATE from [table] SET content = '' where user_id = [user's id]
If the site allows you do to it manually, why not allow you to do it automatically, saving you countless hours?
- - -
Let us not forget the poll which this thread refers to asked us if we would be willing to let the forum abolish our privilege or right to delete our posts. The question being "I should be prevented from deleting my posts. They should be available to the community".
I'm curious to see what the outcome will be as it seems most users want this current privilege taken away.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
Wouldn't deleting posts make the threads that the poster contributed to redundant as the whole discussion/argument would have major holes/gaps in it. Even posts edited by the mods can lead to confusion.
Also, say someone is a regular contributor to the letters section of a print newspaper. Would they have the right that all those newspapers be withdrawn as they didn't want their contributions to be in the public domain anymore. I don't think so. The same applies to online newspapers
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 17:20
Wouldn't deleting posts make the threads that the poster contributed to redundant as the whole discussion/argument would have major holes/gaps in it. Even posts edited by the mods can lead to confusion.
Also, say someone is a regular contributor to the letters section of a print newspaper. Would they have the right that all those newspapers be withdrawn as they didn't want their contributions to be in the public domain anymore. I don't think so. The same applies to online newspapers
You raise some good points with an apt comparison.
I wonder if the deletion of posts will soon be made impossible, and, if so, I wonder if we will be made aware before this potential policy change takes place. Although the majority voted to allow it, some voters seemed against it and it would probably be fair to give them a chance to delete their posts before making it impossible.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
The title of this thread seems to sidetrack what has already been bought up in previous threads .
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 18:02
Yes. I created it to keep the other threads on topic, but users kept posting there instead of here.
Mods, feel free to delete any repetitious posts and put them where you think they belong.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
As I just posted on the other thread any user can delete any of their own posts at any time, which kinda takes away a large part of your argument. The only time I am not sure if you are able to do this is if you are banned.
I understand those deleted posts are saved on the server. If that's true, they could be retrieved.
Fred_Flinstone
06-03-11, 20:48
I understand those deleted posts are saved on the server. If that's true, they could be retrieved.
Even so deletion is usually at a minimum, as any "Admin" should be making regular back ups of the server in case of someone succeeding to mess with the website.
But yes things are stored in database tables, the only part removed is a pointer to that specific location in that table I believe.
As far as this topic goes, anything you post is in my opinion is knowledge made for public eyes, you do not own your posts the one paying for the server that holds your posts does.
So my opinion about deletion, is easy the admin is in control this is not a democracy :p
So, in the case of my photos, are they public or forum property and can the forum admin sell them as theirs even after I've deleted the thread and made it clear I consider them to be mine and mine alone?
Note. I've had requests for their use from polite posters. I've always said yes assuming they are for private use or education but should not be used for anything commercial.
Would it be fair for the forum to take control of them considering they were posted for the amusement of forum members, not for commercial gain by the forum admin or anyone else except me?
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 21:13
As far as this topic goes, anything you post is in my opinion is knowledge made for public eyes, you do not own your posts the one paying for the server that holds your posts does.
Are you saying Fred's posted photos are owned by the forum. They could make a book with them? What about posts giving advice? If the forum owns them, that means the owner(s) could write a book with them?
I don't believe the forum automatically owns our posts or photos. If anything posted on the web automatically became the possession of the website owner(s) where it is posed, sites like Facebook wouldn't bother with stating that type of stuff in their Terms and Conditions. I am sure there is a law forcing Facebook to let you delete your posts and photos. If their wasn't, I'm sure they wouldn't let you.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
Fred_Flinstone
06-03-11, 21:47
Are you saying Fred's posted photos are owned by the forum. They could make a book with them? What about posts giving advice? If the forum owns them, that means the owner(s) could write a book with them?
I don't believe the forum automatically owns our posts or photos. If anything posted on the web automatically became the possession of the website owner(s) where it is posed, sites like Facebook wouldn't bother with stating that type of stuff in their Terms and Conditions. I am sure there is a law forcing Facebook to let you delete your posts and photos. If their wasn't, I'm sure they wouldn't let you.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
If I post my pictures here I know very well that these can be claimed and used by others, even if I have put a copyright mark on them AND I'm allowed to do so.
If I then ever see my picture used without my authorisation, then ofcourse I can demand that picture be taken down IF I can prove that it is infact mine.
Same with a book, if you want to use my words and put it in your book then you will need my approval or rephrase them with your own input.
So that does NOT mean you can't use my words as a base for your own, because i do not have copyright on words or sentences which is not even possible to such a length.
It would be plagiarism if you just simply copy and paste it with no input of your own.
Now ofcourse I'm no expert in these laws or anything and everything I write here is simply based on nothing but my opinion so don't stretch it too wide.
If I post my pictures here I know very well that these can be claimed and used by others, even if I have put a copyright mark on them AND I'm allowed to do so.
The law is clear on the subject of copyright. No mark is needed to stop anyone using them. They belong to the person who took then. I would have to read the forum rules on the subject but, regardless of what they may say, it would still be wrong to use them especially if it was made clear there was an objection. In this case, I can assure you there is such an objection and they should not be used.
Fred_Flinstone
06-03-11, 22:07
The law is clear on the subject of copyright. No mark is needed to stop anyone using them. They belong to the person who took then. I would have to read the forum rules on the subject but, regardless of what they may say, it would still be wrong to use them especially if it was made clear there was an objection. In this case, I can assure you there is such an objection and they should not be used.
I agree, and if it is used for commercial usage you would have a point. I do not think the admins here could sell your pictures off to someone because you did make the picture, and you could indeed if the picture were to be used for commercial usage get them to be taken down, but you can't control people, anything you post can be misused it's the risk you do take, althought i would have to look deeper into this subjects laws so I can learn some more about that!
If I were to post a picture that I don't want to be passed out by someone as their own I would put a watermark on them, gives them extra trouble to take that of.
But my opinion stays the same don't post pictures or information you don't want to be used by a 3rd-party, because the possibility is always there.
I think word "ownership" has too strong of a connotation when applied to things like forum posts. Instead I would propose to separate ownership in two parts:
1) The copyright. This was already mentioned and explained quite well in this and other threads. To iterate: the person who created the content (posts or pictures) owns the copyright to that content. This person has the say on how that content is used, i.e. who can copy it and for what purposes.
2) The medium. Like this forum, a blackboard to write on if you will. The content creator does not have control over the medium. By publishing content to the forum the creator gives up some degree of control to administrator and moderators. The copyright still belongs to creator, but the content could be edited, moved around, re-categorized or removed from the medium by medium owner. In some cases, where explicitly agreed by the creator, even copyright to content could be completely or partially lost to medium owner by publishing it to that medium (old Facebook rules come to mind).
To put it simply: creator owns the content of his/her posts not the posts themselves. On the forum (i.e. inside the medium) admins and mods can do with forum posts (don't confuse with content, i.e. intelectual property) as they please, unless stated otherwise in some sort of contract/EULA/Usage Agreement.
Fred_Flinstone
06-03-11, 22:56
I think word "ownership" has too strong of a connotation when applied to things like forum posts. Instead I would propose to separate ownership in two parts:
1) The copyright. This was already mentioned and explained quite well in this and other threads. To iterate: the person who created the content (posts or pictures) owns the copyright to that content. This person has the say on how that content is used, i.e. who can copy it and for what purposes.
2) The medium. Like this forum, a blackboard to write on if you will. The content creator does not have control over the medium. By publishing content to the forum the creator gives up some degree of control to administrator and moderators. The copyright still belongs to creator, but the content could be edited, moved around, re-categorized or removed from the medium by medium owner. In some cases, where explicitly agreed by the creator, even copyright to content could be completely or partially lost to medium owner by publishing it to that medium (old Facebook rules come to mind).
To put it simply: creator owns the content of his/her posts not the posts themselves. On the forum (i.e. inside the medium) admins and mods can do with forum posts (don't confuse with content, i.e. intelectual property) as they please, unless stated otherwise in some sort of contract/EULA/Usage Agreement.
Totally agreed with, but moderators/admins are also allowed to change the content of a post, as you see happen a lot, maybe not here because everyone behaves, but offensive content can be removed by owners. Which is indeed usually mentioned in the EULA.
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 23:01
Great info Sergei. An extremely clear and enjoyable read.
What would be the default stance on deletions? Would a forum have to specify in their EULA/Usage Agreement/etc if they do not wish to permit deletion requests by their users? Or rather, is a forum allowed to refuse a user's request to delete his posts even though they have not specified this in their EULA/Usage Agreement?
What do you guys think of Atlantis's poll? It has always been the case that a user could delete his posts or his threads, do you think it's OK if the forum decides to change this policy retroactively? I know most users voted that it would be OK for the forum to not allow us to delete posts, but do you think they would have to make a new Policy Agreement for this, or that they should simply go ahead and change the policy without mention?
Do you think Atlantis's post is foreshadowing an upcoming plan by the admins to disallow us to delete our posts, or do you think he simply made the poll out of personal interest? I found it kind of strange that he didn't want us to discuss the issue. I felt I was voting for something I did not completely understand; as if I was voting for a politician, but I was not allowed to hear their speech. I felt that he was kind of guiding the vote since he was the only one allowed to comment on the issue before voting commenced.
It has been mentioned that Gratilla wants to delete his posts. Do you think the forum should refuse this? Are they in a lawful position to do so?
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
Fred_Flinstone
06-03-11, 23:09
Great info Sergei. An extremely clear and enjoyable read.
What would be the default stance on deletions? Would a forum have to specify in their EULA/Usage Agreement/etc if they do not wish to permit deletion requests by their users? Or rather, is a forum allowed to refuse a user's request to delete his posts even though they have not specified this in their EULA/Usage Agreement?
What do you guys think of Atlantis's poll? It has always been the case that a user could delete his posts or his threads, do you think it's OK if the forum decides to change this policy retroactively? I know most users voted that it would be OK for the forum to not allow us to delete posts, but do you think they would have to make a new Policy Agreement for this?
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
I don't think removing a feature that the admin/moderators do not want has to be explicetely agreed with upon registering.
Because that's what it is, a feature they allow you to delete your post.
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 23:13
What if a user deleted many of his posts manually, but they were then undeleted by the admins. What would you think of this? Do you think it is normal to expect that in the current condition of the forum if you delete a post it will remain deleted?
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
The usernames. Once again when you agree to use the forum you give up certain control to forum owner. You username could be modified or deleted from the database by forum owner. Upon you departure from the forum, account closure or due to a ban, your username could be re-used by a completely different person if forum owner permits.
You could have a bit more control if you have registered your username as an international trademark of sorts, then you can have some say in how it could be used, displayed, etc. In all other situations it would be near impossible to prove that you were the original creator of the username and have some sort of copyright.
Fred_Flinstone
06-03-11, 23:20
Here: http://www.expat.or.id/postingguidelines.html#moderators
The moderators are users of the forum who are granted access to the posts and threads of all members for the purpose of moderating discussion and also keeping the forum clean (neutralizing spam and spambots etc.). Moderators also answer users' concerns about the forum, general questions, as well as respond to specific complaints. They also can do anything to lend a helping hand to a user in need. Moderators themselves may have ranks: some may be given mod privileges over only a particular topic or section, while others (called 'global' or 'super') may be allowed access anywhere. Common privileges of moderators include: deleting, merging, moving, and splitting of posts and threads, locking, renaming, stickying of threads, banning, suspending, unsuspending, unbanning, warning the members, or adding, editing, removing the polls of threads. 'Junior Modding', 'Backseat Modding', or 'Forum copping' can refer negatively to the behavior of ordinary users who take a moderator-like tone in criticizing other members.
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 23:28
That's all nice and dandy, but it doesn't say if a forum is lawfully obliged to delete the posts of a user that would request it.
This is the only section on post deletion I found.
"Offending content is usually deleted. Sometimes if the topic is considered the source of the problem, it is locked; often a poster may request a topic expected to draw problems to be locked as well, although the moderators decide whether to grant it. In a locked thread, members cannot post anymore. In cases where the topic is considered a breach of rules it – with all of its posts – may be deleted."
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
Fred_Flinstone
06-03-11, 23:30
That's all nice and dandy, but it doesn't say if a forum is lawfully obliged to delete the posts of a user that would request it.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
Indeed it doesn't, so my guess would be that it's grey area, only tried to help and looked that up for you.
Brigadier Van Der Schnoof
06-03-11, 23:33
Your help is very much appreciated Fred.
Later, :plane:
Brigadier
You sounded like an Atheist, Bridgy...
" I live my life for myself. My Soul dont belong to the GOD "
Btw, why is he getting a temporary Ban ? Khadafi effect is comin down here ?
It has been mentioned that Gratilla wants to delete his posts. Do you think the forum should refuse this? Are they in a lawful position to do so?
As you have rightly noticed, Brigadier, in your OP
Opinions don't make the law.
My poll has one intent: confronting my opinion to user's opinion. It is separate from any decision admins could take and has little, if none, influence on it. Admins will do what the law concerning posts on a forum authorizes them to do. Period.
I believe that you have been overly provocative in several of your posts the past few days. We have received way too many complaints about it and I've spend the week end to study your postings. We've infracted you and warned you. I have also asked you to write a statement post concerning who you are and who you are not (the team, the Viet Nam war veteran...etc). In short I have asked you to be real. Not about your real ID, but about clearing all the confusions around the logs you have created. You've promised me to do so for saturday
I will create the introduction tomorrow during Nyepi.
but,
You have done nothing to clarify who you are even though several users have complained about it and I, as a mod, have asked you to clarify it. Today again you were displaying a controversial signature concerning the "team of writers". If you haven't found time to write the post clarifying it, as per my request in my warning, you still had time to write more than 60 posts since I formulated it.
To add to it, you have wrote several posts today leading readers to confusion over several threads. It's enough. Well, it is enough for me to issue you a new infraction which will trigger an automatic ban. I will discuss with the admins about it, in order for us to decide about it's length. In the meantime, you can appeal about this decision by sending us to
[email protected] an email listing the reasons why you believe that your posts aren't provocative and trolling and that my decision should be overturned.
I hope the message is clear. Posting in the expat forum, as in any forum, is not a right but a priviledge... that can be lost.
What would be the default stance on deletions? Would a forum have to specify in their EULA/Usage Agreement/etc if they do not wish to permit deletion requests by their users? Or rather, is a forum allowed to refuse a user's request to delete his posts even though they have not specified this in their EULA/Usage Agreement?
As I stated above, forum owner controls the medium unless otherwise stated in some sort of agreement. Forum owner does not have to explicitly define what he/she can and cannot do with their own forum. It should be assumed that forum owner has complete and utter control over it. It's their blackboard, they can wipe it clean, or prevent you from doing so. So yes, forum owners are allowed to refuse a user's request to delete his posts without spelling it out upfront. In fact, in most forums I frequent posts are not deletable or modifiable after certain period of time has elapsed.
What do you guys think of Atlantis's poll? It has always been the case that a user could delete his posts or his threads, do you think it's OK if the forum decides to change this policy retroactively? I know most users voted that it would be OK for the forum to not allow us to delete posts, but do you think they would have to make a new Policy Agreement for this, or that they should simply go ahead and change the policy without mention?
Personally, I think users should be able to delete their posts, that's how I voted on the poll, but... it's not up to users to decide whether it should possible or not. A lot of people keep forgetting that they do not own or have any type of control over the forum, it's not their property, and forum management (at least in this forum) is not a democracy. Mods can choose to ask users for their opinion, but they don't have to conform to it. At the end of the day, what we think should or shouldn't be done doesn't matter at all.
Do you think Atlantis's post is foreshadowing an upcoming plan by the admins to disallow us to delete our posts, or do you think he simply made the poll out of personal interest?
Don't know, I'm not a fortuneteller. If they make changes, too bad, live goes on.
I found it kind of strange that he didn't want us to discuss the issue. I felt I was voting for something I did not completely understand; as if I was voting for a politician, but I was not allowed to hear their speech. I felt that he was kind of guiding the vote since he was the only one allowed to comment on the issue before voting commenced.
Strange? No, he explained his reasoning quite clearly. Was he guiding the vote somewhat? Perhaps. He did state his opinion quite clearly in another thread. Did it affect my vote? Not in the least. Will our votes make any difference? Considering that it's not an election, we have no real control, all decisions are still made by the owner, so I'd say not very much.
It has been mentioned that Gratilla wants to delete his posts. Do you think the forum should refuse this? Are they in a lawful position to do so?
Forum owners could refuse and they have full rights to do so. It's their database.
I don't think removing a feature that the admin/moderators do not want has to be explicetely agreed with upon registering.
Because that's what it is, a feature they allow you to delete your post.
Indeed.
What if a user deleted many of his posts manually, but they were then undeleted by the admins. What would you think of this?
I'd think that forum owners should have thought more carefully on which features they actually want enabled. However, forum administration and configuration is not a trivial matter. It takes clear goals and modus operandi, experience and good knowledge of forum's demographics. Very often things are learned in process and rules evolve, features are added or removed. In the end, it's theirs to do as they please.
Do you think it is normal to expect that in the current condition of the forum if you delete a post it will remain deleted?
Request for forecasts again? Sometimes you do pass as a troll, though a very talented one. I don't really care what happens to my posts, I have no illusions about who really controls this forum. If I want to have a full control over my content I just don't post it on someone else's forum.
Gah! I should start making shorter posts, by the time I finished my reply 6 more posts were made.
what about photos?
if you post photos, others can copy them and take them for their own further use and distribution
the internet is not private - never forget that
As you have rightly noticed, Brigadier, in your OP
My poll has one intent: confronting my opinion to user's opinion. It is separate from any decision admins could take and has little, if none, influence on it. Admins will do what the law concerning posts on a forum authorizes them to do. Period.
I believe that you have been overly provocative in several of your posts the past few days. We have received way too many complaints about it and I've spend the week end to study your postings. We've infracted you and warned you. I have also asked you to write a statement post concerning who you are and who you are not (the team, the Viet Nam war veteran...etc). In short I have asked you to be real. Not about your real ID, but about clearing all the confusions around the logs you have created. You've promised me to do so for saturday
but,
You have done nothing to clarify who you are even though several users have complained about it and I, as a mod, have asked you to clarify it. Today again you were displaying a controversial signature concerning the "team of writers". If you haven't found time to write the post clarifying it, as per my request in my warning, you still had time to write more than 60 posts since I formulated it.
To add to it, you have wrote several posts today leading readers to confusion over several threads. It's enough. Well, it is enough for me to issue you a new infraction which will trigger an automatic ban. I will discuss with the admins about it, in order for us to decide about it's length. In the meantime, you can appeal about this decision by sending us to
[email protected] an email listing the reasons why you believe that your posts aren't provocative and trolling and that my decision should be overturned.
I hope the message is clear. Posting in the expat forum, as in any forum, is not a right but a priviledge... that can be lost.
Somewhat ironical in hidsight that KW was banned for his foresight isn't it?
what about photos?
if you post photos, others can copy them and take them for their own further use and distribution
They could, but that doesn't make it legal. Copyright of photographs belongs to original creator, unless otherwise agreed on during publishing.
As I stated above, forum owner controls the medium unless otherwise stated in some sort of agreement. Forum owner does not have to explicitly define what he/she can and cannot do with their own forum. It should be assumed that forum owner has complete and utter control over it. It's their blackboard, they can wipe it clean, or prevent you from doing so. So yes, forum owners are allowed to refuse a user's request to delete his posts without spelling it out upfront. In fact, in most forums I frequent posts are not deletable or modifiable after certain period of time has elapsed.
I think you are spot on, Sergei. The user has the right to ask for a deletion, the forum owner has the right to refuse it. I am aware of a few law suit against forum concerning libel when names of companies or persons have been quoted, but I have never a handle suing successfully a forum concerning the sole ownership of content willingly posted.
In ALL forum I participate or have participated, my exeperience was the same as yours: deletion of posts weren't possible and a request had to be done to the admins, stating clearly the reason why a post should be removed. Then the admin decide. In most case he would agree unless if he feels it is detrimental for the forum and its users.
I also agree with your statement "I'd think that forum owners should have thought more carefully on which features they actually want enabled.". Since the first time I've logged in this forum I've noticed a few features which are not set correctly. I guess that it is due to the fact that none of the admins are heavy "forumers". However, they are learning and as the Posting Guidelines rightly says it, a few things may change, little by little, to address new issues.
Somewhat ironical in hidsight that KW was banned for his foresight isn't it?
The situation is ironic indeed. Though I believe KW was banned for violation of forum rules, not his foresight :). I've read many of Brigadier's posts and never pinged him as a troll until today. Still not certain if he is, innocent until proven guilty and all that. His persona does raise more questions that he provides answers, but that's Internet forum for ya.
Somewhat ironical in hidsight that KW was banned for his foresight isn't it?
Oh no, leyton he has not been banned for his foresight, but for breeching the rules of this forum. In EVERY forum, law is the hand of appointed moderators. NOT in the hand of users. If one has not understood this basic principle, one will shown the exit door in any forum.
On a soccer pitch the referees are the one giving yellows and reds and blow the whistle. In forums it's the same.
He-he, it seems we echoing each other, Atlantis. I think I'm gonna retire for tonight. Cheers.
Fred_Flinstone
07-03-11, 00:40
Oh no, leyton he has not been banned for his foresight, but for breeching the rules of this forum. In EVERY forum, law is the hand of appointed moderators. NOT in the hand of users. If one has not understood this basic principle, one will shown the exit door in any forum.
On a soccer pitch the referees are the one giving yellows and reds and blow the whistle. In forums it's the same.
I wouldn't really call it law, but yes rules must be set, and it's not up to the users to change these only the admins should do so, that's why in an earlier post i quoted the rights of a moderator that's set in the rules that you agree with upon registering. :)
He-he, it seems we echoing each other, Atlantis. I think I'm gonna retire for tonight. Cheers.
Cheers. I am gonna do the same. I am normally not online at that time of the day but a 6th sense told me I had to do something...
Oh no, leyton he has not been banned for his foresight, but for breeching the rules of this forum. In EVERY forum, law is the hand of appointed moderators. NOT in the hand of users. If one has not understood this basic principle, one will shown the exit door in any forum.
On a soccer pitch the referees are the one giving yellows and reds and blow the whistle. In forums it's the same.
Thank you, I just thought it somewhat ironical reading through the forum that KW had the Brigadier "weighed up" along with others I may add, it now seems the Brigadier is banned for such but KW is also banned for brining it to everyones attention.
It does seem to me in "hinsight" that the board have now banned The Brigadier for the very reason KW copmlained about him.
So be it, KW is not part of the board Admin but he has proved himself correct in my opinion.
If my opinion is wrong in the opinion of the Admin then obviously it is pointless to argue it further.
I'll leave it at that.
Thank you, I just thought it somewhat ironical reading through the forum that KW had the Brigadier "weighed up" along with others I may add, it now seems the Brigadier is banned for such but KW is also banned for brining it to everyones attention.
Erm... Did you need KW's call to feel that there was something a tad provocative in Brigadier's posts and attitude? :wink2:
A friend of mine told me that "a forum has the users it deserves". We have a lot of very interesting and helpful posters. We also have sometimes users who create problems. The best way to "bring to everyone's attention" a problem is by RE-POR-TING the said user. That is what has to be done if we don't want to change the balance in between "interesting users" and "problematic users".
What is reproached to KW is the means, not the ends.
But that's not the topic of the thread. :focus:
I saw the troll footprints first...
(Sorry, I copped a deserved warning for hunting it through the woods, instead of reporting it.
Now I know I'm not allowed to shoot them in this forum, just tag and release - through reporting).
Nicely executed Atlantis and judicially done.
A bit of rehab and the brighter trolls can still have a hope of becoming worthy members.
As someone who has posts from both here and elsewhere re-worded slightly and used in a book.......... I initially felt extremely pissed off about it ............. but there is eff all I can do about so I don't lose sleep..........
I'm not sure I like either option. I believe that any extremely offensive or hate speech should be deleted by mods, that's why we have them, right?
KW although I did not see the specific post or posts which warranted and resulted in infraction, I assume never the less the breaking of forum rules.
He is not here to defend himself, so I wil proffer my opinion.
KW is passionate about many things, life, love, his wife, Indonesia and this forum.
That enthusiasm can border on passion, and it is usually through that passion that he sometimes allows the truth to come out too easily. I am of the opinion that is known and that a deliberate attempt was made to push him into his straight forward honest talk.
KW I hope you are reading this and I most sincerely hope you can and will come back.
The Forum is bigger than Brigs, you I and Atlantis it is a case where the sum of parts is greater than the sum of the individual elements.
I know you speak your mind and I have the same problem. My boss tells me my points are I tell it as it is , and my bad points are I tell it as it is. I am with your KW, but dont leave us, you bring value to the forum
A bit of rehab and the brighter trolls can still have a hope of becoming worthy members.Just to clarify, this was not at all a reference to KW.
So, in the case of my photos, are they public or forum property and can the forum admin sell them as theirs even after I've deleted the thread and made it clear I consider them to be mine and mine alone?
Note. I've had requests for their use from polite posters. I've always said yes assuming they are for private use or education but should not be used for anything commercial.
Would it be fair for the forum to take control of them considering they were posted for the amusement of forum members, not for commercial gain by the forum admin or anyone else except me?
Posting on the internet does not give others rights to use them.
However Fred, you taking photos of people and publishing them, for monetary gain or not, you should have sought their signature in the form of a "model release form" Without that in theory you have no rights to publish as that form is their consent for you to do so. Failing to have that in place, they in theory have a legal comeback to yourself.
You might want to consider this in the future to remain strictly legal, and any publisher worth their salt should ask for evidence of this. A counter arguement would be they were in a public place, for which you had right of aceess, but this idea is differenet in differenyt places around the globe.
Anyhow I certainly think they give a great insight into everyday life in Indinesia and have teh ppotential for the foudations of an interesting publication, so good luck with that.
looking forward to a signed copy first edition when it happens
off topic slightly...but what are the laws in Indo regarding street photography?
Model releases are not required for photography as an art, even if prints are sold as 'art' or hung in galleries. He has every right to publish images, documentary or street photography is an art'. You don't need anyone's permission to publish images of them, they have no legal comeback...obviously, legally, you cannot take pictures where there is an expectation of privacy, toilets, changing rooms etc....
If you are in a public place, you are fair game as far as photography goes, in a lot of places in the world. The likes of Getty images etc... or any big publisher of documentary style photography don't require any releases because it is not needed.
All the people I take photos off get narked if I don't take their picture. I often have to take shots I don't want just to shut them up.
off topic slightly...but what are the laws in Indo regarding street photography?
. ..........as with everything else ...... there are NO laws unless a "uniform" thinks he can scam or con you... then sure as Ducks Quack he will find a "law" you have infringed
This is the problem of the Old people....they take things too seriously as if its a revenge for their own past, for not being serious during their adolescences era......
Its just a forum, why so serious
Isnt, it ?
They could, but that doesn't make it legal. Copyright of photographs belongs to original creator, unless otherwise agreed on during publishing.
Sorry if its already been posted, but unless you are uploading the photos direct to this site surely you can just remove the photo from where you uploaded it to (thus rendering the link useless).
E.g. delete my picture from Photobucket that i linked to in this forum.
think_tank
10-03-11, 04:47
As someone who has posts from both here and elsewhere re-worded slightly and used in a book.......... I initially felt extremely pissed off about it ............. but there is eff all I can do about so I don't lose sleep..........
Your posts were re-worded in a published book? Wow! Was it here in Indonesia?
Your posts were re-worded in a published book? Wow! Was it here in Indonesia?
That is a common attitude unfortunately.
You will find out that bits of the legal material found in this forum has been pasted in other forums or website, sometimes (most of the time) even without any re-wording and without giving the credit to the original poster. They even had the bad taste of correcting my grammar and typos, removing the artistic jenesaisquoi of the original posts!!! :smile2:
That's OK to me when it concerns my posts. As long as they can be useful to people in need I am happy with it.
think_tank
10-03-11, 12:51
That is a common attitude unfortunately.
You will find out that bits of the legal material found in this forum has been pasted in other forums or website, sometimes (most of the time) even without any re-wording and without giving the credit to the original poster. They even had the bad taste of correcting my grammar and typos, removing the artistic jenesaisquoi of the original posts!!! :smile2:
That's OK to me when it concerns my posts. As long as they can be useful to people in need I am happy with it.
Good on you then Atlantis. May I ask which sites stole your work?
Good on you then Atlantis. May I ask which sites stole your work?
I don't like the word "stole". They haven't stolen anything from me since I haven't lost anything.
I've PMed you a link. They have done a compilation of a few of my posts with the only mention "Source: Living in Indonesia Expat Forum". No credit to the original poster and no link to the forum. I have PMed you also the main post they have pasted from this forum. However if you enter the right keywords in the search feature of the forum it will lead you to the other posts I've written that they've pasted in part or in totality. The wording is often exactly the same, without the typos. :lol: If I remember well, they have used three other posts to do the whole page.
But again, I don't consider that they have stolen it. As long as it has been freely useful to the community I am fine with it.
Due to this thread the moderators put together a statement about copyright of the posts on this forum - see http://www.expat.or.id/postingguidelines.html#copyright
We recently sent out a link to the revised posting guidelines to all users. In the email we asked users to let us know if they had any questions .. or if anything was unclear in any way.
Just to let you know .. I have not received ONE SINGLE EMAIL FROM ANYONE with questions about the Posting Guidelines ... wow .. are they totally clear to everyone now .. that's great :)
it's a good thing that the question of copyright came up ... as no one had ever asked it before .. and now it should be clear to all!!
Here is the body of the email that was sent out:
In response to recent seeming confusion about some of the policies of the Living in Indonesia Expat Forum, the moderators took the site offline today for a few hours to give ourselves a chance to go through the Posting Guidelines thoroughly and address recent issues.
Note new points marked "NEW" in red :)
Please review the revised Posting Guidelines at http://www.expat.or.id/postingguidelines.html
If you have any questions or need clarification, please write to wm or Atlantis.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.12 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.