View Full Version : Church elder stabbed.
Once again FPI is at its finest. It is more disgracefull that they did it during Idul Fitri. http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/church-elder-stabbed-in-attack-on-christian-worshipers-in-bekasi/395641
abdinegoro
13-09-10, 00:01
FPI should be banned.. allowing it to grow could mean the end to religious tolerance in Indonesia
4315
FPI should be banned.. allowing it to grow could mean the end to religious tolerance in Indonesia
No offence but the Islamic Defenders Front "FPI" is huge and watched by most terrorist watch groups. You might want to google them.
waarmstrong
13-09-10, 00:38
FPI should be banned.. allowing it to grow could mean the end to religious tolerance in Indonesia
In order to have an end, it would seem there first needs to be a beginning.
Banning is an the answer, but not a good or even effective one. Voicing crack-pot beliefs is an inalienable right whether from the mouths of right wing religious fanatics or Playboy editors. Those inciting violence and those committing violent acts should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
I don't think banning an organization is compatible with democracy. They should be prosecuted for criminal acts instead, and have all their assets confiscated. Their leaders should be held personally liable so their personal assets are included in the confiscation. All these thugs care about are money, so when the state goes after their money it should put a damp on their desire to keep operating.
It strikes me as very odd that someone should feel the need to attack someone else because that person uses a different name for the almighty.
If they were that religious they would know what they did is a sin and worthy of a one way ticket to hell in either religion.
We don't actually know that this was the FPI yet. Apparently the illustrious police sent the church a letter advising there was a significant threat if they went ahead with their service. Now, I generally interpret such warnings from pak polisi as an invitation to contribute in order to make the problem go away. The church presumably didn't make a 'disbursement' so the police unleashed their pet thugs.
abdinegoro
13-09-10, 11:03
In order to have an end, it would seem there first needs to be a beginning.
Banning is an the answer, but not a good or even effective one. Voicing crack-pot beliefs is an inalienable right whether from the mouths of right wing religious fanatics or Playboy editors. Those inciting violence and those committing violent acts should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Seems to me, their action shows that it is starting. Some of the HKBPs are Batak people, and they are known for their higher-than-average temperament, if FPI push them too far, they might retaliate and fight back.
FPI or not, twisting religion' teaching for a certain organization benefit should be prohibited, and the perpetrators should be prosecuted
We don't actually know that this was the FPI yet. Apparently the illustrious police sent the church a letter advising there was a significant threat if they went ahead with their service. Now, I generally interpret such warnings from pak polisi as an invitation to contribute in order to make the problem go away. The church presumably didn't make a 'disbursement' so the police unleashed their pet thugs. You're not insinuating that the police has something to do with it do you?
my farthest guess is they know that it might happen, but they are only willing to prevent / stop it if a generous sum of contribution is made
abdinegoro
13-09-10, 11:10
4315
No offence but the Islamic Defenders Front "FPI" is huge and watched by most terrorist watch groups. You might want to google them.
Yes, i realize that..and it shouldn't grow any more
waarmstrong
13-09-10, 13:26
I don't think banning an organization is compatible with democracy. They should be prosecuted for criminal acts instead, and have all their assets confiscated. Their leaders should be held personally liable so their personal assets are included in the confiscation. All these thugs care about are money, so when the state goes after their money it should put a damp on their desire to keep operating.
The financial twist is a very good suggestion, Injun. Whole heartedly agree.
The financial twist is a very good suggestion, Injun. Whole heartedly agree.
It's not my idea. The SPLC has been successfully suing the pants off of KKK on behalf of racial violence victims. The tort system is notorious for abuse, but this time it's for a good cause.
Indonesia doesn't have a working tort system, but her government doesn't hesitate in seizing ill-gotten assets.
A number of years ago the Irish government set up the Criminal Assets Bureau (CAB) which was empowered to basically approach people who displayed wealth beyond their visible earnings and demand that they demonstrate that the money was obtained legally. They don't have to be convicted of a crime. It caused, and continues to cause, havoc in the criminal world and as a result many of the drug dealers and other dodgy types have now moved off-shore to Holland and Costa del Crime (Spain's Costa del Sol) A Dutch guy, for example, had his castle siezed in County Cork a while back. The money siezed has more than paid for the Bureau's running costs. An idea for Indonesia perhaps.....?
angelapowiro
13-09-10, 20:39
FPI should follow Gandhi's leadership....
FPI should follow Gandhi's leadership....
That would require a serious policy u-turn
No, I don't trust the Indonesian government (its employees actually) to not abuse this "show me how you got it" scheme. It smells too much like "guilty until proven innocent". Asset confiscation as part of criminal conviction is not the same thing.
No, I don't trust the Indonesian government (its employees actually) to not abuse this "show me how you got it" scheme. It smells too much like "guilty until proven innocent". Asset confiscation as part of criminal conviction is not the same thing.
I'm sure it's open to abuse if not transparent and yes it's guilty until proven innocent but if a person can't account for vast wealth then I think that's fine. The 'I've no idea how 20 million got into my account' defence shouldn't hold in my opinion.
The CAB also gets them on tax evasion as most of those guys never paid a cent of tax. They've also taken on a local authority for a re-zoning scam as land was bought relatively cheap as farming land and then re-zoned as industrial land which increased the value twenty fold. Bribes were paid, allegedly.
waarmstrong
13-09-10, 22:43
It's not my idea. The SPLC has been successfully suing the pants off of KKK on behalf of racial violence victims. The tort system is notorious for abuse, but this time it's for a good cause.
Indonesia doesn't have a working tort system, but her government doesn't hesitate in seizing ill-gotten assets.
That's the series of cases I was reminded of when you mentioned using the tort system, or rather a reasonable Indonesian facsimile. There are few "new ideas" in this world, but there is a lot of creativity in taking old ideas and applying them is new situations. My Kudo to you not for a new idea, but a suggested new application.
I'm sure it's open to abuse if not transparent and yes it's guilty until proven innocent but if a person can't account for vast wealth then I think that's fine. The 'I've no idea how 20 million got into my account' defence shouldn't hold in my opinion.
The CAB also gets them on tax evasion as most of those guys never paid a cent of tax. They've also taken on a local authority for a re-zoning scam as land was bought relatively cheap as farming land and then re-zoned as industrial land which increased the value twenty fold. Bribes were paid, allegedly.
It's actually not a terrible concept, it just won't work in Indonesia. Nobody with any kind of wealth in Indonesia can survive a CAB style investigation unscathed, especially when it also examines the possibility of tax evasion. As such the bureau will be used as a tool to target political opponents or abused to enrich the officers. Who wouldn't pay 10 million to make them look the other way rather than confiscate several milyar rupiahs?
think_tank
17-09-10, 03:42
I think they'd need outsiders to come in on a taskforce. A few years seizing assets should make at least a few openly corrupt officials change their ways. The Italians use the Swiss Guard, why can't Indonesians hire some incorruptible to wipe out their biggest problem once and for all? Perhaps it is because nobody in office actually wants the problem to go away?
What is the KPK doing nowadays anyway? Have they just given up?
What is the KPK doing nowadays anyway? Have they just given up?
Komisi Pemberantasan Korupsi can't handle every cases of corruption in the country and handle only a tiny fraction of them. They choose the one they can handle and leave the rest to the district courts. Pengadilan Negeri are known to sentence corruptors very lightly with even a shameful high percentage of acquittals.
A number of years ago the Irish government set up the Criminal Assets Bureau (CAB) which was empowered to basically approach people who displayed wealth beyond their visible earnings and demand that they demonstrate that the money was obtained legally. They don't have to be convicted of a crime. It caused, and continues to cause, havoc in the criminal world and as a result many of the drug dealers and other dodgy types have now moved off-shore to Holland and Costa del Crime (Spain's Costa del Sol) A Dutch guy, for example, had his castle siezed in County Cork a while back. The money siezed has more than paid for the Bureau's running costs. An idea for Indonesia perhaps.....?
I would suggest that the Idea of forfeiture laws by and large are a good tool to fight (((organized crime))), but the circumstances and scope of the laws ability to seize personal property has to be completely defined with no room for authorities to abuse, there are many horror stories concerning American seizure and forfeiture law and it takes years to get ones property back once a mistake has been determined , "The Tax"Man (IRS) has had the ability to do this since 1933, I couldn't understand why we needed a full set of law until I read some of them, very scary.
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