View Full Version : Second Confrontation?
More than 230 volunteers from all walks of life have registered themselves with an ultra-nationalist group for military assignments if a confrontation erupts between Indonesia and Malaysia following a recent border incident.
Not only youths, but also a 81-year-old man signed up for the war, which looks unlikely, as soon as the Ganyang Malaysia (Crush Malaysia) opened its command post to register the volunteers in front of the Proclamation Monument in Central Jakarta at 3 p.m. on Tuesday. (JP Tue, 08/31/2010)
If the border dispute continues there will be many consequences borne by 2 countries. War always makes people suffering.
Hombre de Maiz
01-09-10, 14:33
I'd send a clear signal by issuing a statement that Indonesia does not condone para-military groups of any kind, that TNI is sufficiently capable of defending national sovereignty and honor, and that the time in which the country solved disputes with its neighbors by going to war is a relic of the past. And watch the stock-market rise. Visible leadership.
waarmstrong
01-09-10, 14:43
More than 230 volunteers from all walks of life have registered themselves with an ultra-nationalist group for military assignments if a confrontation erupts between Indonesia and Malaysia following a recent border incident...
That Indonesia has at least 230 fanatical nationalistic fools is a good thing?
My own (cynical) view is that these 'confrontations' are actively incited by the political elite from time to time to deflect attention from domestic issues. It takes very little provocation to stir up strong feelings among the tabloid readership of both Indonesia and Malaysia and both governments have fanned the glowing embers from time to time for their own ends. The road fuel hike a few years ago (2006?) looked likely to cause mass protests until the TNI picked a minor scrap with the Malaysians over the Ambalat Block sea area. Rather than burning pictures of SBY the rent-a-mobs began burning Malaysian flags instead and people just sort of forgot about the fuel price hike.
The guy who started it was Soekarno who kicked off Konfrontasi to distract the populace from the economic disasters created by his administration.
exiledgooner
01-09-10, 20:03
cant beat a bit of flag waving to take the masses minds off their dismal reality
these people are all puff n wind. remember last time they threatened to invade? all good fun, great headlines and mildly embarrassing but thats a bout it
its the muppet show with less cuddly puppets thats all
I'd send a clear signal by issuing a statement that Indonesia does not condone para-military groups of any kind, that TNI is sufficiently capable of defending national sovereignty and honor, and that the time in which the country solved disputes with its neighbors by going to war is a relic of the past. And watch the stock-market rise. Visible leadership.
Hombre for President!
Hombre for President!
Hombre de Maiz
01-09-10, 21:19
Great. Now Pimp can be mayor of Jakarta, Fred, head of KUA, and I will appoint Alia as Putri Indonesia. My first act in office will be to grant a referendum to all provinces who wish to secede so that I am left with a country of a manageable size, with no one wanting out and distracting us from the pursuit of developing our people. I can then devote the country's energies and resources to bettering the life of the common man and woman instead of focusing on trying to hold it together by force, patronage, piety and corruption. Wow, what a fantastic country Indonesia would be! India, Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia and China would have nothing on us...
Cryptkeeper
01-09-10, 22:57
Lots of disappointments after SiBuYa's speech tonight.. 99% of Indonesians don't expect a war, but they are expecting the government (as in the President) to be more decisive.
[QUOTE=Hombre de Maiz;983) .. and I will appoint Alia as Putri Indonesia./QUOTE]
Yayyyyyy...!! Thanks !!
Hombre for President !! You just got my vote.
My first act in office will be to grant a referendum to all provinces who wish to secede so that I am left with a country of a manageable size. I can then devote the country's energies and resources to bettering the life of the common man and woman instead of focusing on trying to hold together the country together by force, patronage, piety and corruption.
Eh, wait a minute..!
As Putri Indonesia, I have to disagree with your first act, Mr. President. If you do that, and one or probably more than one province decided to secede, than you are going to make the same mistake with your previous fellow president, BJ. Habibie. We lost Timor Timur because of him. You as the president supposed to make us united as one. Stick together no matter what happen. Deal with all problems and make this country free of corruptions, poverty, stupidity and any other negative things. If there is any chaos demanding any one to secede, its your job to push it to the end, with all diplomacy, strategy or even with arm. Not with easily letting them go. And with referendum ?? Oh my ! Everyone wants to become President, so everyone will ask for their freedom. This NKRI not just happened to be a country at one night. Our heroes in the pasts struggled and sacrificed their lives for our freedom and unity as one country. And now you are about to give them up like that ??
I think I need to take my vote back, Mr.
.... And my crown back... (snif)...
cant beat a bit of flag waving to take the masses minds off their dismal reality
these people are all puff n wind. remember last time they threatened to invade? all good fun, great headlines and mildly embarrassing but thats a bout it
its the muppet show with less cuddly puppets thats all
heyyyyyyyyy do I see a Stars and Stripes waving away regularly............
but they are expecting the government (as in the President) to be more decisive.
I don't understand all this incurable optimism. After 6 years of dithering, procrastinating and avoidance you'd think they would have the measure of SBY by now. He is not suddenly going to transform into Superman you know.
As Putri Indonesia, I have to disagree with your first act, Mr. President. If you do that, and one or probably more than one province decided to secede, than you are going to make the same mistake with your previous fellow president, BJ. Habibie. We lost Timor Timur because of him. You as the president supposed to make us united as one. Stick together no matter what happen. Deal with all problems and make this country free of corruptions, poverty, stupidity and any other negative things. If there is any chaos demanding any one to secede, its your job to push it to the end, with all diplomacy, strategy or even with arm. Not with easily letting them go. And with referendum ?? Oh my ! Everyone wants to become President, so everyone will ask for their freedom. This NKRI not just happened to be a country at one night. Our heroes in the pasts struggled and sacrificed their lives for our freedom and unity as one country. And now you are about to give them up like that ??
Make people united as one against their will... isn't that what colonialism have tried to do? I thought that in a country who had to endure colonialism for so many years people would be more concerned by the right of a population, of a suku to dispose of their land and future. Just a thought.
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 08:26
...We lost Timor Timur ...
Tim2 was never "yours" to begin with. In fact, no province, suku or people in Indonesia is "yours". They are part of Indonesia so long as they agree to it. It is called rule by consent, and it is an integral part of your Pancasila. Ruling without the consent of the governed has a name: colonialism (or dictatorship). Indonesians didn't like it when the Dutch did it to you. I don't see why others should like it coming from Indonesia. The right to self-determination of all peoples is enshrined in Indonesia's own constitution. So long as Indonesia continues to place top-down abstract fetishes like Pancasila ahead of tangible, bottom-up notions of development and human welfare the country will find it difficult to prosper. Just another thought.
Make people united as one against their will... isn't that what colonialism have tried to do? I thought that in a country who had to endure colonialism for so many years people would be more concerned by the right of a population, of a suku to dispose of their land and future. Just a thought.
It would be a colonialism if the one that want to united all the people in a country is coming from another country and its surely would against their will. With agenda like to have the natural resources, political force, and so on. But this is us we are talking about. Provinces inside RI. The same country, lead by a government. The same people, the same culture, the same language. United in diversity. How come you let any of us go and make the country of their own ? What would it be if Indonesia is just consist of a province, like DKI Jakarta only ? Or SulUt only, or East Java only ?
Its not easy to run a country, need brilliant and honest people to make it as a good comfortable one to live in. But letting go a province or more in a referendum is not an answer of some difficulty when problems need to be faced and solved.
And this is also just a thought.
The same people, the same culture, the same language.
A Papuan (for example) has the same ethnical origin than a javanese? A same culture? a same language?
Wow... I've learnt something today, Alia. Thanks for the enlightment. :smile2:
You must be joking.
Your answer was not a personal thought but the result of an endoctrination.
What would it be if Indonesia is just consist of a province, like DKI Jakarta only ? Or SulUt only, or East Java only ?
It would be certainly more effective than it is now. Have you heard about countries such as Swiss or Belanda? Less populated than Jakarta, with maybe less surface (need to check) than the greater Jakarta... but with much more achievement. The pride of nation shouldn't be based on the number of its provinces but in its realisations and the welfare of its people.
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 08:56
I'm talking about real life, Alia, the reality that is plain to see for anyone willing to see it. I am not talking about the images, dreams, aspirations and stories concocted by nationalism
No, I'm very serious now.
There are many tribes, as you know. They speak their own tribe language, they have their own tribe culture, they have their own physical special look, but they are one, Indonesian. They speak one language when it comes to the nation, they gathered to make solidarity against Malaysia for the one reason that is (was) the OP of this thread.
If you said that my opinion is the result of endoctrinment, then I hope many of my fellow Indonesians would have the same endoctrinment as I do or had, and could apply it like I do now, because it surely would break my heart seeing every province, that we known as ours torn apart to make their own country.
And there would be nothing left for "Indonesia".
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 09:11
I don't understand all this incurable optimism. After 6 years of dithering, procrastinating and avoidance you'd think they would have the measure of SBY by now. He is not suddenly going to transform into Superman you know.
No surprise here..
I'm not sure what was raising the expectations, but I guess it was the situations, first SBY was soft, and then there were (are) many voices encourage him to be tougher.. Suddenly he announced that he would make another speech in Mabes TNI (after all those lame reactions of his). I guess the people were expecting that this time he would now gave up to what they want.
There are many tribes, as you know. They speak their own tribe language, they have their own tribe culture, they have their own physical special look, but they are one, Indonesian.
If they are one, Indonesian, as you describe, why would one fears about a referendum??? They should plebiscite without reserve the fact that they belong to one great nation.
They speak one language when it comes to the nation,
A bit of travelling around the archipelago is in order Alia. You will see how wrong your statement is. Many do not speak bahasa Indonesia which is a rather new language for them. Bahasa daerah were the norm long before bahasa indonesia was imposed.
If you said that my opinion is the result of endoctrinment, then I hope many of my fellow Indonesians would have the same endoctrinment as I do or had,
No worries Alia, in Jawa, they do. The endoctrination has been less convincing in some part of the country. Or to be more exact, the endoctrination has been convincing in the very first years of the nation but the numerous breaches in the contract from the central government and its chronic inability to answer the aspiration of the provinces and the lack of respect of some of their constitutional rights have milded it.
Have you heard about countries such as Swiss or Belanda? Less populated than Jakarta, with maybe less surface (need to check) than the greater Jakarta... but with much more achievement. The pride of nation shouldn't be based on the number of its provinces but in its realisations and the welfare of its people.
Swiss or Belanda dont have history like we do. Hundreds of years being colonized by other countries, milked all the natural resources we are rich for, and left nothing to us. Not even education. (very little of it). They dont have that kind of precious hurting experience. We are familiar with poverty, ignorance. We have to catch the long road, and a long time to become like Swiss or Belanda even if we are only DKI Jakarta for example.
Swiss or Belanda dont have history like we do. Hundreds of years being colonized by other countries, milked all the natural resources we are rich for, and left nothing to us. Not even education. (very little of it). They dont have that kind of precious hurting experience. We are familiar with poverty, ignorance. We have to catch the long road, and a long time to become like Swiss or Belanda even if we are only DKI Jakarta for example.
Come on Alia, Singapore became independant in 1965, Malaysia became independant in 1963. Yet, their economical achievement is far from the one of Indonesia. It may be time to grow up as adult and stop shielding oneself being these type of excuses. Colonialism has been unfair, cruel, harsh, anything you want but it doesn't explain the failures of Indonesia. Corruption, lack of freedom of religion...etc. What is the actual link with 300 years of dutch colonialism? I was reading an article last night about corruption, bad governance and poverty in JaTeng. Gosh... I must have missed the link with three hundreds years of colonialism which ended 65 years ago.
Swiss or Belanda dont have history like we do. Hundreds of years being colonized by other countries, milked all the natural resources we are rich for, and left nothing to us. Not even education. (very little of it).
Is this the kind of codswallop that passes for education in Indonesian schools these days?
Indonesia (still) has a massive amount of unexploited natural resources. Take gold for example. If the snoring cronies in the DPR building woke up and used some of their talents for the good of the people, Indonesia could rival S Africa for gold production. Instead mines are closed down by the police and the army and left unproductive. Admittedly this is primarily because the locals are using insidious mercury for extraction, but there are a number of non-polluting alternatives. Needs a will and a bit of currently non-existent constructive effort.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 10:02
First thing first; In a country consists of 230+ millions of people, hundreds of tribes and literally thousand plus dialects (Papua alone has hundreds) it is (almost) impossible to have an idea which approved and accommodate all interests.
I believe the idea of NKRI was first cemented on "Sumpah Pemuda". That was when Jong (young ..?) Java, Jong Celebes, Jong Manado (I think the Celebes was referring to the Bugis / Makassar) Jong Ambon, Jong Batak.. basically all "Jong"s from all over Indonesia (with the exceptions of Timor Leste and Papua) pledged that they have 1 nation, and speak 1 language. Believe it or not, the first airplane RI has ever had was given by saudagars (notice that I put the plural form) Aceh. They pitched in, bought the plane and handed it over to the government.
The Dutch was never united us. They did exactly the opposite. They surely didn't have enough man power to conquer the entire East Indies (by force), so they were using the tactic of Devide et impera (devide and conquer); I believe this is self explanatory. There are many examples of this tactics, Ternate and Tidore, Perang Padri, the Aceh conquer.. all over East Indies, the Dutch were helping one kerajaan against the other (it's opponent, usually the neighboring kingdom) and later forcing an agreement swing to their favor to the kingdom it was helping. Or simply took over the beat up and tired kingdom by force.
You guys are right, both me and Alia are a product of endoctrinment. But lets look at what happened if we don't stick together. From the beginning of the independence (after the second WW 2):
Will the Surabayans stands the fight against the British if the other Javanese, Balinese, and Sumatrans were not flooding in to Surabaya and helped them? Although, looking at their fighting spirit, most probably they would've died to the last man. Vanished, but never (admit to) conquered.
What will happened in the second Dutch invasion if the ex-KNIL from Manado like Alex Kawilarang and many other were chosen to fight for the Dutch or maybe went home and just defend his Minahasan backgound. Again, this is arguable, but at least we will have less fighters.
What do you guys think if the Bataks only fought for Toba, Sundanese fought for Jabar.. etc etc and said go to hell with the other regions? Bigger chance we will be colonized by the Dutch (again) or another countries.
And now, what if say Kaltim decide to seceded? They are rich enough, but what would the Bugisnese, Javanese, Banjarnese who were there for centuries feel? Unlike those who are in Malaysia, these guys are still maintaining a close relationship with their "homeland". Do we need another bloodbath (and this time, a civil war since there are lots of mix marriage) just for the sake of being liberated, someone who is a governor now can call himself a president? Same goes for the other regions.
This is why the Otonomi Daerah was widely accepted as a midway, a win win solution. Some of the local leaders were (are) using it the wrong way though..
I must be dreaming, but what is it that make you think one province in Indonesia could do better if they stand up all alone by them self as a single country ? What ability to defence them self from another attact do they have ? What financial strength do they have to make it as a new born country ? Or the cleverness of the people ? Look at all the members of DPRD, they probably no better than the ones that snors or picking his nose in the DPR, or do you think they are ?
Britain let Singaporean and Malaysian educated, but not the Dutch. That's the link you looking for.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 10:11
Britain let Singaporean and Malaysian educated, but not the Dutch. That's the link you looking for.
Yup. There was Trias Politica (politik balas budi). Never succeed though, it'll be cheaper and easier to let the workers uneducated.
If we didn't have the experience with Belanda and their divide et impera strategy, perhaps seccession would be more palatable and viewed with less suspicion. A country as small as Belanda managed to rule the massive Indonesia because they successfully pit us against each other. Even as they bid farewell, they imposed a condition that we were split up into United Republics of Indonesia. Despite all this, the unitary state of Indonesia prevailed, so the idea becomes essentially sacrosanct. It is one of few things referred to as "harga mati" (literally dead-set price) or non-negotiable.
It is a highly emotional subject that won't have many people standing in the middle. I read an interesting article about it. The article said that the world is divided into countries with seccession issues and those without. Countries without seccession issues have no problem supporting breaking up of countries, while those who still have the problem (Russia with chechnya, China with Taiwan and Tibet, Turkey with Kurdistan, India and Pakistan with Kashmir, Somalia with Puntland, Indonesia with Papua and Aceh, etc.) do not welcome the idea.
Even the U.S. with her vaunted constitution guaranteeing all sorts of rights could not stomach the idea of seccession by the confederate states, leading to the civil war. Indonesia's democracy is still in its infancy, so it's unrealistic to expect people to forsake the cherished idea of the unitary republic.
I personally aren't eager to use military force to maintain our unity and integrity, but I do not support seccession either. The problem is complex, but I'm not convinced that balkanization is the solution. If you look at the political dynamics in Indonesia, seccession in a smaller scale (like the push to form new provinces) are sometimes motivated by simple power grab by the local elite so they get chairs at DPR and DPD.
Britain let Singaporean and Malaysian educated, but not the Dutch. That's the link you looking for.
65 years later, what Indonesia has done about it's freedom in term of education of the masses is the question you should answer. Good lord, are you proud of 65 years of underachievement from your governants? Sorry to sound harsh but I am tired of hearing excuses such as in 2010, we have corruption at every level of the society because of 300 years of colonialism which has left us uneducated. It was more than three generation ago, Alia. Will you be telling the same confortable tales to your great grand child or are you willing to do something for a change?
basically all "Jong"s from all over Indonesia (with the exceptions of Timor Leste and Papua) pledged that they have 1 nation, and speak 1 language. Interesting. :smile2:
It may be worth talking about the annexation of Papua in 1969 and the subsequent "vote" for self determination. I just would like to remenber you that the "Act of Free Choice" (Penentuan Pendapat Rakyat, PEPERA) was a complete joke. Under the article 18 of the New York Agreement all adult Papuans should have had the right to participate in the act of self-determination promised. Instead, Indonesian authorities selected 1022 West Papuans to vote publicly and unanimously in favor of integration with Indonesia. It is the history of how Papuan, "despite their own physical special look, became one, Indonesian". Even in african dictatures they do better: they manage to have unanimous results but at least the whole population (and sometimes even more than the official figures) participate in the masquerade.
And now, what if say Kaltim decide to seceded?
We all know that we are not speaking about KalTim or SulUt, but Papua and TimTim.
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 10:46
... What would it be if Indonesia is just consist of a province, like DKI Jakarta only ? Or SulUt only, or East Java only ?
Its not easy to run a country, need brilliant and honest people to make it as a good comfortable one to live in. But letting go a province or more in a referendum is not an answer of some difficulty when problems need to be faced and solved.
...
Make no mistake, the sheer size of Indonesia alone, in and by itself, militates against development. Your Founding Fathers didn't have the clarity of mind to grasp this. They compounded their mistake by further centralizing the country into a unitary republic. This was an aberration of history. Indonesia had never been as centralized as it is today, and the centralization was not organic, consensual or methodical. The centralization of Indonesia has been largely a response to the threat of seccesionism, to the threat from those who do not believe the hype and who do not want to be indoctrinated.
If you look at the list of the top 20 developed countries, you will see that there are only two with populations greater than 100 million (Japan and the U.S.). Once again, make no mistake, geographic size and population size have an effect on prosperity.
In the 19th century, the Ottoman Empire was called "a prison of nations" and the "Sick Man of Europe". Indonesia is a modern-day Ottoman Empire. In light of its chronic underperformance, is Indonesia the "Sick Man of Asia"?
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 11:00
...
Even the U.S. with her vaunted constitution guaranteeing all sorts of rights could not stomach the idea of seccession by the confederate states, leading to the civil war. ...
That was 150 years ago, during the high age of imperialism, the age of the Feast of Vultures, the age that paved the way for Gunboat Diplomacy, the age of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires. And yes, the U.S. Civil War has and can be interpreted as a fundamentally colonial enterprise, as the "Reconstruction" of the agrarian South to meet the needs of the industrialized North. Do you mean to tell me that Indonesian nationalism operates in the present with the imperial values and notions of two centuries ago?
But that is neither here nor there for the subject at hand. I, for one, would have no problem if a state of the Union wanted to secede so long as it is the will of the majority and it is done according to the law. Indeed, who the hell am I to stand in the way of other people's fundamental rights?
65 years later, what Indonesia has done about it's freedom in term of education of the masses is the question you should answer. Good lord, are you proud of 65 years of underachievement from your governants? Sorry to sound harsh but I am tired of hearing excuses such as in 2010, we have corruption at every level of the society because of 300 years of colonialism which has left us uneducated. It was more than three generation ago, Alia? Will you be telling the same confortable tales to your geat grand child or are you willing to do something for a change?
Atlantis dear, I'm not at all proud of what you said underachievement from my goverment. I've been expecting them to do a lot more than that. Lack of everything as we know. You just name it. Including un-apportionment (?) in development. All this time its been centered in Jakarta. I live in Surabaya my self, but stil feel envy to look what all Jakarta has in term of development than what my city has. Moreover from other cities. And the reality as we can see in Fred's photo is everywhere, its open up our eyes widely for social asymmetry.
Of course if I could, I'm willing to do something to make it right, but If I could do something for change, it wont be seceding from the mother country or provocating people to do so.
Is this the kind of codswallop that passes for education in Indonesian schools these days?
Yes. Read any middle or senior school history text and you'll see where Alia gets her information from. Critical thinking on any of these topics is strongly discouraged. One of the many reasons why so many wealthier Indonesians send their kids to international schools.
Personally, I don't think it would be constructive for Papua or Maluku Selatan or Aceh (or any other province) to go it alone right now. You would end up with a small country with all (or most) of the problems of NKRI in that a small, wealthy elite would dominate and corruption would be ubiquitous. Take a look at PNG or Timtim. Port Moresby is infinitely more terrifying than any Indonesian city that I can think of.
Pramoedya - whose writings were banned in Indonesian schools until recently - has a more sensible take on the situation. Unless you get rid of what he calls 'Javanism' or intra-national colonialism then it doesn't matter how big or how small Indonesia becomes as it is the mindset and not the geography that is the problem. If the ABS, VIP culture and national work ethic were to change for the better, who would want seccesion?
Personally, I don't think it would be constructive for Papua ...
Think about it, they would have the convenient excuse for the next 100 years to blame three hundred years of dutch colonialism and 40+ years of indonesian colonialism to excuse/explain their failures.
I am of those who think that being exploited by one's own is better than being exploited by a foreigner. A referendum wouldn't be a bad idea in my opinion. Once you have decided, you have to assume your decisions.
That was 150 years ago, during the high age of imperialism, the age of the Feast of Vultures, the age that paved the way for Gunboat Diplomacy, the age of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman empires. And yes, the U.S. Civil War has and can be interpreted as a fundamentally colonial enterprise, as the "Reconstruction" of the agrarian South to meet the needs of the industrialized North. Do you mean to tell me that Indonesian nationalism operates in the present with the imperial values and notions of two centuries ago?
But that is neither here nor there for the subject at hand. I, for one, would have no problem if a state of the Union wanted to secede so long as it is the will of the majority and it is done according to the law. Indeed, who the hell am I to stand in the way of other people's fundamental rights?
I'm saying that despite having 9 decades of stable democracy, despite a federal and decentralized structure, the U.S. could not accept secession. We have the benefit of a little over a decade of democracy and a decidedly unitary (although decentralized in theory) structure, and you expect Indonesians to be open to the idea of secession?
While I don't completely view the idea as obscene, I do not agree that breaking Indonesia up is the inherently superior solution to our problem.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 11:55
65 years later, what Indonesia has done about it's freedom in term of education of the masses is the question you should answer. Good lord, are you proud of 65 years of underachievement from your governants? Sorry to sound harsh but I am tired of hearing excuses such as in 2010, we have corruption at every level of the society because of 300 years of colonialism which has left us uneducated. It was more than three generation ago, Alia? Will you be telling the same confortable tales to your geat grand child or are you willing to do something for a change?
Interesting. :smile2:
It may be worth talking about the annexation of Papua in 1969 and the subsequent vote for self determination. I just would like to remenber you that the "Act of Free Choice" (Penentuan Pendapat Rakyat, PEPERA) was a complete joke. Under the article 18 of the New York Agreement all adult Papuans should have had the right to participate in the act of self-determination promised. Instead, Indonesian authorities selected 1022 West Papuans to vote publicly and unanimously in favor of integration with Indonesia. It is the history of how Papuan, "despite their own physical special look, became one, Indonesian". Even in african dictatures they do better: they manage to have unanimous results but at least the whole population (and sometimes even more than the official figures) participate in the masquerade.
We all know that we are not speaking about KalTim or SulUt, but Papua and TimTim.
I've done so many debates about Timtim before, and basically too tired to do that again, no offense, honest :) But, I'll give you a few keywords of my stance for this matter; Different era, fear of communism, Suharto's tendency towards the west, the fact that Gerald Ford left Jakarta just a day before invasion and Jimmy Carter keep supplying weapons during his presidency, Australia and other western nations (i.e England) never made a protest even when their citizens got killed in Balibo, public opinions and finally kejahatan bersama.
I believe 99% of Indonesians (including me) today would reject the idea to invade Timtim (again) or if we could turn back time, back in 1975.
As for Papua, I agree that PEPERA was orchestrated. But lets be logical and look at the reality now. Which one do you think would govern Papua better, the Indonesian (as in what one would called "Java government"), the Dutch, or let them govern themselves?
Lets look at those three.
The Indonesian: I am NOT saying that we done a great job, but all the negatives being said and done (I'm sure you know) at the end of the day, we still build schools, roads, and any Papuans are free to study, come and go anywhere they wish. And let's not forget, under the Otonomi Daerah law, now (almost) all of the money is for the Papuans and managed by the Papuans.
The Dutch: You know what / how they did.
The Papuans: Now, I believe this is the most fair of them all. On one condition though, right after the Dutch left Papua, no other country (Indonesia, Australia, USA, etc) should set foot there. Just let them be, erase Papua from the map, and put it back later when they are "civilized" / smart enough to deal with the rest of the world. Again, no other countries should interfere in the process. Let's be honest, there will always be *take and give* in a relationship, and if one party is weak (read: stupid) then the other will take advantage.
Now the question is: Should Indonesia left Papua, will the others follow? Or will they got in and later we will have this discussion with another country replace "Indonesia"?
gffgold speaks my mind on this matter.
While I don't completely view the idea as obscene, I do not agree that breaking Indonesia up is the inherently superior solution to our problem.
It is not a question of "breaking Indonesia up" but considering the right of the population who inhabit territories which can hardly be considered as part of Indonesia for cultural, ethnical or linguistical reasons to self determined their future rather than imposing them the appartenance to a nation on the basis of a deeply flawed vote which occured 40 years ago. Anyway, with the massive transmigration which occured in the past decades, there is little (?) chance that the outcome of a referendum would be for independance. Indonesia will have to deal with this issue anyway if it doesn't want Papua to become the next Maluku or the next Poso.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 12:15
Think about it, they would have the convenient excuse for the next 100 years to blame three hundred years of dutch colonialism and 40+ years of indonesian colonialism to excuse/explain their failures.
I am of those who think that being exploited by one's own is better than being exploited by a foreigner. A referendum wouldn't be a bad idea in my opinion. One you have decided, you have to assume your decisions.
Atlantis, I never been to Papua, but I am very close to someone who was in charge of Papua Development.
It is not *that* easy.
1. Papua has hundreds of tribes, speak hundreds of languages (one interesting fact: literally all over Papua, one can walk 3-5 kilometers and find two different tribes who don't understand each other, but both tribes understand and speak Bahasa.
2. This hundreds of tribes has histories (and still happening) of tribes war. Should there be a referendum, which one should govern and how many countries should they'll be?
3. Sorry for being harsh, but do you know that most Papuans are drunks? Again, I don't want to sound harsh or menuduh , just saying the reality. Is this the same people you'd expect to lead Papua to a better place? Add that to corrupt, less educated etc etc. I am not saying that all Papuans are stupid, and lazy drunks, there are many smart hard working people there, but compare to the whole population, the percentage is really small.
4. Most Papuans are prefer to get paid (by the act of premanism) and use the money to buy miras and prostitute, then to sit in school. Again, just saying the reality.
5. Geologically speaking, building Papua is a challenge. Thick jungles and mountains are everywhere. There a reason why commute flights are preferred transportation method.
Above all these (and I could listed more), I think the biggest challenge is number 2 (and to some extent 1). Which one of these tribes should lead? Or would one propose some sort of kabinet bersama? Well, good luck of socializing that idea to tribes who has war history and keep repeating it to this day..
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 12:19
I'm saying that despite having 9 decades of stable democracy, despite a federal and decentralized structure, the U.S. could not accept secession. We have the benefit of a little over a decade of democracy and a decidedly unitary (although decentralized in theory) structure, and you expect Indonesians to be open to the idea of secession?
....
Well, yes. I expect them to not be so indoctrinated so as to forgo thinking critically about their own history and about discourses like nationalism which are to a great extent tools of domination.
On the issue of U.S. history during the early years of the 2nd republic (the first republic was under the abortive Article of Confederation and Perpetual Union), there exists a rose-tinted glasses view of stability and tranquility. The reality was quite different. Those early years of the republic saw serious debates and confrontations about the future and direction of the Union. The nature of the country was contested at every turn. The paradox of the United States is not why it turned out so relatively well, but rather why, despite the serious and protracted challenges that it faced (on par with those faced by Indonesia) and despite its role as a weak country at the mercy of the European imperial powers, it turned out as well as it did.
On whether secession makes things better or not, allow me to give you this insight. Indonesia is better off for having divested itself of Timor-Leste. Timor-Leste is better off for having parted ways with Indonesia. No East Timorese longs for the period 1975-1999, except for the militias who did the dirty work of ABRI.
Indonesians are not those whom you determine are Indonesian. Indonesians are those who deem and feel themselves to be Indonesian. You don't get to determine who I am. No sooner had Indonesia challenged this very same tyranny from the Dutch, it devoted itself to the same tyranny on the peoples of the archipelago. For many people, independence from the Dutch was nothing more than trading one tyranny for another.
Atlantis, I never been to Papua, but I am very close to someone who was in charge of Papua Development.
An Indonesian, you mean. Not a Papuan I am sure.
1. Papua has hundreds of tribes, speak hundreds of languages (one interesting fact: literally all over Papua, one can walk 3-5 kilometers and find two different tribes who don't understand each other, but both tribes understand and speak Bahasa.
2. This hundreds of tribes has histories (and still happening) of tribes war. Should there be a referendum, which one should govern and how many countries should they'll be?
3. Sorry for being harsh, but do you know that most Papuans are drunks? Again, I don't want to sound harsh or menuduh , just saying the reality. Is this the same people you'd expect to lead Papua to a better place? Add that to corrupt, less educated etc etc. I am not saying that all Papuans are stupid, and lazy drunks, there are many smart hard working people there, but compare to the whole population, the percentage is really small.
4. Most Papuans are prefer to get paid (by the act of premanism) and use the money to buy miras and prostitute, then to sit in school. Again, just saying the reality.
5. Geologically speaking, building Papua is a challenge. Thick jungles and mountains are everywhere. There a reason why commute flights are preferred transportation method.
I don't know about the dutch, but you sound pretty much like some of my colonialist french ancestors who were going to Africa to civilized all these savage tribes in Africa. They also were just a bunch of pemabo, as we say in Manado (:wink2:), with weird customs, and no education. No education? Do you mean that Indonesia has failed in its mandate to educate the local population, a bit like the dutch some years before? Do you think that dutch were also saying that they weren't giving education to these savage Indonesian because they didn't want to sit in school? I wonder if they were saying that?
I have been to Papua, and as you know, Manado has a fair community of Papuan. I also have Papuan in the people who work with us. I have a different opinion than yours.
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 12:51
Your description of Papua and Papuans, Cryptkeeper, could sound like a description of Indonesia and Indonesians to some. The sword cuts both ways, my friend. Be careful with deploying these arguments against others because they can be deployed just as easily against you.
"Divide and conquer" has been used here to describe the method by which the Netherlands subjugated the peoples of the archipelago. The actual application of the method was by indirect rule, that is, by the complicity of native rulers in oppressing and subjugating their own peoples in exchange for a stipend and self-important formal recognition. The Netherlands, a miniscule country across the world, ruled over Indonesia because Indonesians helped them rule. In no other way would have Dutch colonialism been possible in Indonesia. Complicity was essential.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 13:06
I don't know about the dutch, but you sound pretty much like some of my colonialist french ancestors who were going to Africa to civilized all these savage tribes in Africa. They also were just a bunch of pemabo, as we say in Manado (:wink2:), with weird customs, and no education. No education? Do you mean that Indonesia has failed in its mandate to educate the local population, a bit like the dutch some years before? Do you think that dutch were also saying that they weren't giving education to these savage Indonesian because they didn't want to sit in school? I wonder if they were saying that?
I have been to Papua, and as you know, Manado has a fair community of Papuan. I also have Papuan in the people who wotk with us. I have a different opinion than yours.
Again, I am not saying that Indonesian government (Imperialis Jawa as the GAM use(d) to say, although this guy I mentioned is a Manadonese) was (is) all saint and righteous, my point is referendum / central Indonesian government left Papua isn't gonna solved the problem.
Some of my proves are:
- I / we can still see war tribes in Papua. Let's be honest, who were / are the mediators? Who literally stand between those two sides with bows and arrows, screaming and do the war dance? None other than TNI / Polri (Brimob). Yes, I am aware about the human rights issues.
- After the otonomi daerah, which is basically an independence other than still raising Merah Putih flag, is there a significant improvements in Papua? Who are the Governor, Bupati and DPRD members of Papua? None other than Papuans themselves.
- Let's look at the Freeport case. How many percent of the funds go to schools, hospitals, roads etc..? And how many Papuans are suddenly got rich?
All these being said, I never / don't hate and / or dislike the Dutch, Papuans or any other nations. I also respect and think of you as someone with great knowledge and very well intentions towards Indonesia (and many members here as well). Well, I'm a good Indonesian and I believe that despite of differencies it is possible to get along and do something together.
:)
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 13:19
Your description of Papua and Papuans, Cryptkeeper, could sound like a description of Indonesia and Indonesians to some. The sword cuts both ways, my friend. Be careful with deploying these arguments against others because they can be deployed just as easily against you.
"Divide and conquer" has been used here to describe the method by which the Netherlands subjugated the peoples of the archipelago. The actual application of the method was by indirect rule, that is, by the complicity of native rulers in oppressing and subjugating their own peoples in exchange for a stipend and self-important formal recognition. The Netherlands, a miniscule country across the world, ruled over Indonesia because Indonesians helped them rule. In no other way would have Dutch colonialism been possible in Indonesia. Complicity was essential.
True that. But lets look at the other tribes. Once my father said to me "if you're getting married, choose a Javanese. When there are no other works available, they will plant some sayurans and jualan pecel." You got the message. My mom was pouting btw..lol.
Or Padangnese, they're hard workers.
Or Bataknese, their land isn't so friendly to them (lots of tanah kapur) so they develop the habits of merantau. And another mentality I prefer not to mention here.
Well, you do the comparison yourself. Basically after the Dutch left, the government menganak-emaskan Papua (and Timtim), it is easier to study if one is Papuan / Timtim. One will get beasiswa and other benefits. How many of them are using this oppportunity?
This is another theory of why colonialism will never succeed (at least for a long time). To rule and govern Indonesia, the Dutch just never have enough manpower. Perhaps it's a different story if it were the Chinese or Indians. They had no other options than to assigned some jobs to the locals and educated the locals to get the job done the right way. With educations, comes the will to be free. The rest is history.
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 13:29
Many Timorese took advantage of the opportunity to study in Indonesia. Just like many Indonesians took the opportunity to study in the Netherlands during the late colonial period. Not knowing or having studied how your national consciousness arose (some think that it was there from Sri Wijaya and Majapahit, that the seed was there from time immemorial), Indonesia tried to educate Timorese and in effect succeeded in doing what Dutch education had done to the consciousness of Indonesian nationalists a few generations earlier, to equip the servant with the conceptual tools and analytical weapons of the master.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 13:32
^^ Agreed
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 13:38
It is this phenomenon which makes indoctrination necessary so as to counterbalance the erosion of Indonesian nationalism and to prevent the emergence of alternative nationalisms that will inevitably arise with increasing educational levels. This is one of the contradictions and tensions of Indonesian nationalism. Put another way, increasing political pluralism & freedoms and increasing education militate against Indonesian nationalism as it is conceived and practiced at present time. One or the other will have to give.
Well, yes. I expect them to not be so indoctrinated so as to forgo thinking critically about their own history and about discourses like nationalism which are to a great extent tools of domination.
On the issue of U.S. history during the early years of the 2nd republic (the first republic was under the abortive Article of Confederation and Perpetual Union), there exists a rose-tinted glasses view of stability and tranquility. The reality was quite different. Those early years of the republic saw serious debates and confrontations about the future and direction of the Union. The nature of the country was contested at every turn. The paradox of the United States is not why it turned out so relatively well, but rather why, despite the serious and protracted challenges that it faced (on par with those faced by Indonesia) and despite its role as a weak country at the mercy of the European imperial powers, it turned out as well as it did.
No, it's not reasonable. In case you missed my explanation about Indonesia's history, Indonesians are fully aware of the history of "divide and conquer". The Dutch managed to rule us because we were divided, so in order to win our freedom we had to unite and rise together. Unity is associated with freedom.
Within a decade of democracy you expect Indonesians to achieve the same level of understanding that America couldn't gain in a century AND ignore the fact that we secured our freedom through unity. Sure.
On whether secession makes things better or not, allow me to give you this insight. Indonesia is better off for having divested itself of Timor-Leste. Timor-Leste is better off for having parted ways with Indonesia. No East Timorese longs for the period 1975-1999, except for the militias who did the dirty work of ABRI.
I'm not worried about Timor Timur, or Aceh, or even Papua. My concern is about the principle. If we communicate that secession for secession sake will be tolerated, certain regional elites will take advantage of the situation just because they want to be president of their own state, and not necessarily for the good of their people. They were griping about Jakarta controlling too much, now that we have otonomi daerah, what's their excuse?
Indonesians are not those whom you determine are Indonesian. Indonesians are those who deem and feel themselves to be Indonesian. You don't get to determine who I am. No sooner had Indonesia challenged this very same tyranny from the Dutch, it devoted itself to the same tyranny on the peoples of the archipelago. For many people, independence from the Dutch was nothing more than trading one tyranny for another.
Do you consider yourself not an Indonesian because you are against Indonesian corrupt system, or because you think of yourself as a separate nation? I can understand Timor Leste and Papua in the latter context, but not Bengkulu. Again, I probably won't use force, but I will definitely not support secession.
You like to bandy the Dutch around like they were really not worse than fellow Indonesians. I disagree strongly, especially today. Every citizen of Indonesia today has a voice. The practice is not as advanced and as smooth as mature democracies, but it is there. With the Dutch it was pure taxation without representation, and somehow it's comparable to Indonesia's own government? Not.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 13:53
Exactly the opposite. The more educated an Indonesian, the more he / she believes that we (Indonesia) will be better of united. See Alia's, Injun's and my posts before this. We are having many problems now, but it is better to face and deal with the problems than to call it quit, let us go different ways and have civil wars as (one of) the side effects of this seceding.
I think Otonomi Daerah law is the best thing for us, basically every region is now independence and every citizen ga perlu repot repot bikin paspor.
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 14:01
Both democracy and Regional Autonomy have been much more successful in the reorganization of power rather than the transformation of power. In very few localities would one be able to say that a new type of governance, a new deal is underway, one in which the practice of governing is a departure from the past. It has been in large part a replication of old patterns in new vessels.
Sorry to say this, but I would not take you three as exemplars of those who have been immune to the indoctrination. What you have written here on this thread alone speaks volumes.
And secession will transform power rather than reorganize it? How?
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 14:11
The short answer is by the same method by which power is laid out differently in Timor-Leste, Malaysia, Kyrgystan, and Bolivia. Each organized according to its own logic. The other short answer is that it will no longer be your problem.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 14:12
Both democracy and Regional Autonomy have been much more successful in the reorganization of power rather than the transformation of power
Are you familiar with the terms raja raja kecil? Every regions in Indonesia has its own kings now.
In very few localities would one be able to say that a new type of governance, a new deal is underway, one in which the practice of governing is a departure from the past. It has been in large part a replication of old patterns in new vessel
Gorontalo would've make a perfect example of what a good leader can do in this Otonomi Daerah era. Although there are flaws, don't blame the system, blame the leader (and those who voted for him / her)
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 14:19
Sorry to say this, but I would not take you three as exemplars of those who have been immune to the indoctrination. What you have written here on this thread alone speaks volumes.
lol.. okay then Hombre, as a well educated man *cough*, do share with us why is it better for every regions to secede and why it is important enough to ignore the side problems that occurs (first thing that came out in my mind, civil wars since lots of citizen has interests in different regions, for example, a Padang have warung in say.. Jawa Barat and now suddenly he has to pay more taxes / his warung is nationalized by the new Jabar government)
Sorry to say this, but I would not take you three as exemplars of those who have been immune to the indoctrination. What you have written here on this thread alone speaks volumes.
I'm hurt..
The short answer is by the same method by which power is laid out differently in Timor-Leste, Malaysia, Kyrgystan, and Bolivia. Each organized according to its own logic. The other short answer is that it will no longer be your problem.
And how is that "transformation" rather than "reorganization"? Each Indonesian region under autonomy elects its own leaders. If they secede they might use slightly different system of democracy (one would hope it's at least a democracy), but it's not meaningful unless it actually empowers more people.
Secession is our problem because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Indonesia loses more to secession than mere face value of the lost region.
I'm hurt..
Don't worry Alia, Hombre thinks that any Indonesian disagreeing with him is incapable of independent thought. If I have to agree with his position in this matter to shed the "indoctrinated" label, then I'd rather be "indoctrinated".
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 16:50
There you go again. Indoctrination is not evidenced by whether we agree or not. Instead indoctrination is evidenced by the arguments and ideas, the mode of thought, the discourse that you have brought to bear. I am not the only one who questioned Alia's and Crypkeepers premises. After all, indoctrination is about a way of thinking and perceiving.
Are you familiar with the terms raja raja kecil? Every regions in Indonesia has its own kings now.
And the same raja2 kecil would remain in any given province after seccession, but with much more power. I disagree with Hombre that decentralisaton and regional autonomy are the solution to Indonesia's ills - so far all they have produced are a lot of mini Indonesias with all the same basic problems as NKRI. Yugoslavia is a fine example of what happens if you take the approach to its logical conclusion.
Hombre de Maiz
02-09-10, 17:13
I never said "decentralisaton and regional autonomy are the solution to Indonesia's ills". In fact, I have argued that they have failed to transform power relations in Indonesia, that they have been a surface palliative that have by and large replicated at the local level the ills that plagued the system. Lest I be misunderstood or misquoted again, there is no panacea or silver-bullet. Instead, ameliorating Indonesia's myriad ills requires numerous interventions at various levels.
Then I misread what you wrote previously.
Cryptkeeper
02-09-10, 18:02
And the same raja2 kecil would remain in any given province after seccession, but with much more power. I disagree with Hombre that decentralisaton and regional autonomy are the solution to Indonesia's ills - so far all they have produced are a lot of mini Indonesias with all the same basic problems as NKRI. Yugoslavia is a fine example of what happens if you take the approach to its logical conclusion.
Exactly. And this is after the initial cost of declaring the independence (civil wars and / or at least people are removed from their land because they don't share the same traits)
I never said "decentralisaton and regional autonomy are the solution to Indonesia's ills". In fact, I have argued that they have failed to transform power relations in Indonesia, that they have been a surface palliative that have by and large replicated at the local level the ills that plagued the system. Lest I be misunderstood or misquoted again, there is no panacea or silver-bullet. Instead, ameliorating Indonesia's myriad ills requires numerous interventions at various levels.
Judging from your first act to break away Indonesia so it becomes smaller manageable chunks, people would be excused to think that it's your panacea.
Interesting discussion - especially since i am Indian.
Can somebody expalin which country today is truly democratic and the people are truly free to talk their self?
abdinegoro
10-09-10, 22:41
Errr... the United States perhaps? or Switzerland... never been to either, just a guess
Neither, I believe. What about your country, India?
India.. so many regional parties.. the system of democracy works on the so called majority!! and eventually majority is ONLY possible in a coalition with so many parties.. Inorder to retain power, the major coalition partners accede to the insane demands of the smaller players.. the story goes on and horse trading comes into play.. and cycle is closed by corruption and diverting public money.. To summarise there is really no true democracy !!
What happened in the last US election -- Al Gore of Bush?? still a point of debate but put to rest ( not democratically i suppose ). And elsewhere in the other parts of the world also, the deciding authority is power and not democracy.. so where are we? Some of the smaller countires like Switzerland and Singapore have more efficient goverments.. but is it because they are small?
So is it that smaller populations are more easy to govern!! but then all the smaller countries are in some way servicing the bigger players !! the economic system i mean .. money laundering / tax evasion etc..the whole nine yards. In the overall picture is any country truely and honestly democratic or are compromises made?
When we think more about this, the more complex it becomes !!!!
So what is true freedom? and true democracy? Is making compromises and accepting it?
abdinegoro
21-09-10, 14:47
Maybe democracy is just something government officials use to stop people from asking why they have to pay taxes and where the money go
vin.vierge
21-09-10, 15:10
interesting article on tempo caught my eyes regarding this border issue, apparently malaysia still using SEA map 1979 while the rest of the SEA countries are using new map number 349 issued in 2009, further more singapore, philipine, thailand having the same problem with malaysia, bad neighbour tsk tsk tsk
C'mon, there isn't a country in the world with a coastline that isn't embroiled in at least one maritime border disagreement.
abdinegoro
21-09-10, 17:17
interesting article on tempo caught my eyes regarding this border issue, apparently malaysia still using SEA map 1979 while the rest of the SEA countries are using new map number 349 issued in 2009, further more singapore, philipine, thailand having the same problem with malaysia, bad neighbour tsk tsk tsk
probably they just choose whichever is more advantageous to them..or just join the extra space they got between those two and make an even bigger space
vin.vierge
21-09-10, 18:51
C'mon, there isn't a country in the world with a coastline that isn't embroiled in at least one maritime border disagreement.
I mean singapore, thailand, and philipine have the same border issue like this country with malaysia
Eveningson
24-10-10, 04:19
Hi Bbabu,
While not answering your qualitative question, here is a quantative answer.....
Here is the actual democracy index.. Sweden is number 1, Switzerland number8 the USA number 18Indonesia number 69
1. Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden)
2 Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway)
3 Iceland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland)
4 Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands)
5 Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark)
6 Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland)
7 New Zealand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand)
8 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Switzerland.svg/20px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland)
9 Luxembourg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg)
10 Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia)
11 Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)
12 Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland)
13 Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)
14 Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria)
15 Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)
16 Malta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta)
17 Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan)
18 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)
19 Czech Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic)
20 Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea)
waarmstrong
24-10-10, 11:34
The reference to the democracy index Eveningson posted at #72 is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index.
There is another index, the Quality of Life Index, published by the same outfit that is also instructive, especially for mobile families and individuals contemplating places to live, work, or retire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-Life_Index .
Eveningson
24-10-10, 12:18
The reference to the democracy index Eveningson posted at #72 is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index.
There is another index, the Quality of Life Index, published by the same outfit that is also instructive, especially for mobile families and individuals contemplating places to live, work, or retire: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-Life_Index .
THank you waarmstrong. I should have posted the link too. One learns.
waarmstrong
24-10-10, 21:54
No problem. Telling that the USA is a bit down in the rankings.
C'mon, there isn't a country in the world with a coastline that isn't embroiled in at least one maritime border disagreement. The Uk .......... errr that's not strictly true of course because we went to war over the Malvin........ err I mean Falklands..... why ??? Shale Oil.... nice little reserve there when the technology catches up
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